In-house Or Modified Movements.

[padi56]

In-house or modified Eubach made to look in-house.

From what I understand manufactures like Omega thoroughly goes over each movement. They are fully, or nearly fully, disassembled, decorated when and where needed, reassembled and adjusted. This is from, admittedly, information derived from their catalogue, and a salesman who had been to the Omega factory.

Let's assume this is true. It does not mean it is bad. And in-fact a thoroughly tweaked eubach can be better than a poor, mediocre or well made "in-house" movement. A car analogy - think of it like Alpina, AMG, or Shelby. A car coming out of the shops of one of those illustrious "tuning" houses, depending on the degree of modification, can only vaguely be called a BMW, Mercedes or Ford. What entered the workshops are only shadows when compared to what they have become.

Now, this doesn't mean that all manufactures fine tune their eubachs they get. In fact, I dare to say most of them do not tune or modify them at all, beyond stamping their name on the rotor. And even within a certain manufacturer's lines, some models may get a thorough going over, and some may not. You can probably guess their bottom line (cheapest) models are the ones that get the "drop in" movements.

Anyway, in the end, a modified or tuned movement does not qualify as an "in house" movement. Just by giving their calibre number to the ETA or AS eubach doesn't make it theirs. It needs, as I put it, "…to be manufactured from scratch at the manufacturer" to qualify as "in-house."

And as much as I like the idea of "in-house" movements, all other things being equal (meaning price, case quality, bracelet, etc.) I'd rather get a highly tuned and/or decorated eubach, than a mediocre in-house movement. That said, now a days, I think all Swiss,German,and Jap manufacturers who do in-house movements make them to a pretty high standard. So, with that in consideration, all other things being equal, I would try and go with the in-house movement.

IMO to qualify as an in-house movement the majority of the movement should be designed and assembled in-house, not purchased either as a kit or as a complete movement. Not all parts, such as the balance wheel, can be manufactured in-house and are usually purchased from a single source. Many manufactures like to rename an ETA movement as their own calibre and this can be very bloody confusing.

To go further, a module from Dubois-Depraz can be added to a base ETA to create a perpetual,a Chrono, or a repeater watch. Again, these are renamed to give the impression of an in-house movement.

If you go to the Dornblueth web site and look at the news section you can see them develop a new movement.

I respect manufacturers and sellers who identify the movement for what it is. Most small manufacturers have to purchase their movements. Designing and manufacturing an in-house movement, is not cost effective for them, so the value, can rest in the preparation, and calibration of a purchased eubach movement.So in some cases a highly tweaked modified eubach, can equal
a in-house movement IMHO.

Padi - I agree with your view. I prefer the so-called "in-house" movements, but I won't let that stop me from buying something that isn't in-house (whatever "in-house" really means.........and that is one of the problems with such questions).

I think my "collection" reflects that, with a Rolex (for now), a JLC, a GO, and of course my Seiko........

[padi56]

Originally Posted by Avalon

Padi - I agree with your view. I prefer the so-called "in-house" movements, but I won't let that stop me from buying something that isn't in-house (whatever "in-house" really means.........and that is one of the problems with such questions).

I think my "collection" reflects that, with a Rolex (for now), a JLC, a GO, and of course my Seiko........

Yes agree with you most modern movement made today, whether it be a ETA,Valjoux or Seiko and the Citizen miyota.
Can meet the COSC stantards with a bit of tweaking,and all are long lasting reliable movements.

[Manatee]

I much prefer in-house movements. I've bought a few watches built with the common ETA, Valjoux, and Nouvelle Lemania movements, but it's very unlikely that I'd buy anymore or those.

The only exceptions I'd make is when a movement is heavily reworked for some special purpose, or when a significant technological advance is featured -- such as the co-axial escapement employed by Omega.

I have more than enough watches just for the sake of having watches... From now on, the ones I buy will be carefully considered.

[JJ Irani]

It seems that more and more watch enthusiasts turn toward in-house movements; but a craftily modified ETA movement as carried out by high-end Swiss manufactureres like IWC, Ulysse Nardin, Omega and others will always find a place in one's collection.

[padi56]

Originally Posted by Manatee

I much prefer in-house movements. I've bought a few watches built with the common ETA, Valjoux, and Nouvelle Lemania movements, but it's very unlikely that I'd buy anymore or those.

The only exceptions I'd make is when a movement is heavily reworked for some special purpose, or when a significant technological advance is featured -- such as the co-axial escapement employed by Omega.

I have more than enough watches just for the sake of having watches... From now on, the ones I buy will be carefully considered.

Well Peter would agree in theory,did you Know that Patek tried the co-axial escapement.But they had a disagreement with George Daniels about how it should be oiled to work correctly.George was right of course,after all he designed it,was running in a proto type for several years,but was abandoned some say to save face.
And Rolex had one running but come up with the excuse it was to costly for them to retool.

[Goodwatch]

Originally Posted by padi56

In-house or modified Eubach made to look in-house.

From what I understand manufactures like Omega thoroughly goes over each movement. .

Padi me mate,


A top class discussion piece. There are, however, one or two statements I would like to add to this.

Are ebauches necessarily any worse than manufactures? After all ETA S.A. makes chronometer grade movements so that at least means that at some point in time the are, or were, as accurate as a Rolex. ETA, Lemania, Valjoux, et all, are renowned and respectable manufacturers who specialize in one thing: they make movements, from low grade to top of the line chronometers.

Some of the top brands use ETA or the like, but for example in the case of Omega only the baseplate and a part of the winder is used. This amounts to about 7% of the whole movement and is done because it are very good and reliable parts. The rest is added in the Omega factory. (But many of those parts are commissioned, like in the Japanese car industry). This may leave the real watch buff with a sense of 'I’m being cheated here, what am I paying for?'. I partially agree. Even high end brands like Ulysse Nardin use ‘out sourced’ movements to start working on. The special annual edition of Watches lists all the brands with their base movements and this can be very revealing. (Cartier, et tu?).

To my knowledge, only 8 Swiss manufacturers and Seiko make all their movements completely in-house. Rolex purchased majority stock in the Nivarox spring factory and bough the factory who supplied their bracelets many years ago. We all know the story with Zenith.

If you rationalize it, buying out-sourced parts may even be a good thing. Purchase the mainspring from a firm who specializes in mainsprings, the dial from a dial manufacturer, etc. All firms who are the best in their field. And assemble your watches from those parts. Top class.

But a little more honesty and less marketing drivel is wanted. If you look at the Bell & Ross catalogue, it makes you puke. You see pictures of partly assembled watches on old work benches and surrounded by watchmaker’s tools. You know the drill. It oozes hand-made haute horlogerie. In reality, it are stamped ETA and Valjoux movements. At premium prices.

For me, the ‘manufacture’ issue is important in buying watches in the Rolex class. For that kind of money one expects manufactures, or in-house movements.

Thanks for starting this thread,


Frans.

[padi56]

Would agree Frans but most ebauches now are from the ETA factory Swatch
group,the only difference between a ebauche and a ETA movement. Is the
lack of eta or a cal number on movement,only a small hallmark type stamp
have a look at my link.
http://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=1345

What really should matter about an ebauche is:

does it work?
is it robust?
is it accurate?

IMHO, beyond that everything else is pretty much unimportant. With the high quality of manufacturing of watch components, the tolerences are so precise that in-house is just another movement. To me it means certain 'houses' have more money to develop, or survived the quartz invasion... but to me 'out-house' movements can be just as good or better than in-house.

The biggest manufacturer of in-house movements is Seiko, yet they are not held as haute horologie in most WIS' minds. Shame cuz I'd put a Seiko Monster up against a Rolex Sub any day of the week. And the Grand Seikos are works of art.

I think in-house only really matters when the complications are um, complicated. Like on some of the PP or GO, JLC type movements.

I'd like to see a resurgence in mechanical watches, and it ain't gonna happen with in-house movements unless Seiko decides to stop making quartz ebauches. Not likely, so you can see that out-house movements are the backbone of the mechanical watch industry and for me, if a watch is visually appealing, robust, accurate... the name of the ebauche manufacturer doesn't much matter to me.

[20vrr4]

Wonderful discussion this. If watch appreciation is more than "telling the time" then the provenance of each watch means a fair amount. Design, colour, precious metal or not are important but IMO the movement is as important. Is it "special" or is it "run of the mill"? That adds to the emotion. Slightly oblique analogy Panerai Black Seal or 8 Day? Both look the same but the JLC movement and the complication of the 8 Day makes it a different type of watch. I would ask whether for this discussion inhouse can also mean a special bought in or "group" movement?
Production of a true in house movement is very expensive and time consuming. A well chosen existing movement with some particular complication is often a better alternative and can keep cost of purchase down.
How about the IWC inhouse Portuguese Automatic movement compared with the regular out of house Portuguese movement. It is really an emotional thing which i don't think makes any difference to value. Aren't watches wonderful!!? Regards Robert

Originally Posted by 20vrr4

Wonderful discussion this. If watch appreciation is more than "telling the time" then the provenance of each watch means a fair amount. Design, colour, precious metal or not are important but IMO the movement is as important. Is it "special" or is it "run of the mill"? That adds to the emotion. Slightly oblique analogy Panerai Black Seal or 8 Day? Both look the same but the JLC movement and the complication of the 8 Day makes it a different type of watch. I would ask whether for this discussion inhouse can also mean a special bought in or "group" movement?
Production of a true in house movement is very expensive and time consuming. A well chosen existing movement with some particular complication is often a better alternative and can keep cost of purchase down.
How about the IWC inhouse Portuguese Automatic movement compared with the regular out of house Portuguese movement. It is really an emotional thing which i don't think makes any difference to value. Aren't watches wonderful!!? Regards Robert

Good point on the PAM183 vs 190. Both look similar but the 190 has that JLC movement with the eight day power reserve (and YG hands). In Canada a PAM183 retails at CDN$5400 and the 190 goes for $10,100. So essentially if you buy a 190, you're paying an additional $5000 for a JLC movement. That is one hell of a premium for a movement (impressive as it may be). Considering the movement in the 183 is a rebuilt Unitas, even with the tweaking the movement likely actually costs Panerai about $150-200. I've seen the same stock Unitas movement for sale on the web for less than $100 from a supplier.

Does the JLC movement add mystique to the 190? Absolutely, particularly because of the link to the history of the 8-day movement. But at $10K for a SS watch with a leather strap, with the only complications being a seconds counter and a power reserve indicator (very neatly viewed via the display back)... it's quite a premium for a basic watch. But then at $10K, no watch is just a watch, it's an accessory and a collectable.

[padi56]

IMHO the Seiko Grand in house movement, is equal if not better than
some in-house swiss movements.And have beat the swiss many times
in time keeping trials,Seiko just lack the image of being a high end brand.
Well ETA is main suppler of ebauches,to the watchmakers in the western world

[padi56]

Excellent post John and so very very true.

[dman]

Very good post Johnny!! Right on the money pal!!

thank you both kind sirs.

[padi56]

The pleasure is all mine John.

[JJ Irani]

Great post, Johnny.....what a far cry from the usual nonsense we normally post!!

[Goodwatch]

Originally Posted by JJ Irani

Great post, Johnny.....what a far cry from the usual nonsense we normally post!!

Speak for yourself, Kiwi! My posts are always straight on the subject!

Take care buddy,

Frans.

P.S. What IS the main subject of this forum?

[dman]

The inhouse movment used to be super important to me, but then again, so was only wearing a Rolex. I think that if the movement is re-worked enough to perform to a higher standard and the watch looks good, I'll have no problem thumping down a wad of cash for it.

[padi56]

Originally Posted by dman

The inhouse movment used to be super important to me, but then again, so was only wearing a Rolex. I think that if the movement is re-worked enough to perform to a higher standard and the watch looks good, I'll have no problem thumping down a wad of cash for it.

Well Daren would agree to a point,but whats important to most I would say is the name on the dial,may I add not to myself now.