Submariners.. new vs old.

[docjamal]

Hello everyone from sunny South Africa.
Let me quickly mention my Rolex history...

I first bought a used Coke bezel GMT about two years. I sold it quite quickly as I did not feel the coke bezel worked with my Indian origin skin colour. It was a 2002 watch and i also found the bracelet a bit stretched and tinny almost. I played around with a few breitlings and of course one misses the rolex brand in a collection. I cannot say why, but knowing you have a Rolex just brings some emotional gratification that other brands, even if visually more exciting, just do not.
I then got a deepsea. I sold it as i found it too high and top heavy.
I want to get a submariner. A newish ceramic model is lovely and has that bit of extra pizazz i suppose. I want the watch as a daily beater and because the wife and i have so many watches i really do not want to spend an arm and a leg.
A good used ceramic sub date is hard to find but in my country a used one goes between 6000 and 6500 usd.
I was today offered a previous generation sub 16610LN. I know the owner well. A 2006 piece. It came with the newer generation type boxes etc. Almost the last of the pre ceramic models. It will cost me 5000usd. It has been serviced at rolex service centre in the last six months. Serviced but unpolished as it is worn under a sleeve by a pedantic gentleman. This is a big plus for me.
Other used watch dealers here charge about 4500usd for similar watches. But these have generally been serviced and refurbished and polished by a little watchmaker shop with unknown quality standards, sapphire crystals have been polished etc.

What i would like to know is this. I find the older aluminium bezel models appreciating in value year on year. I cannot say the same for the ceramic ones. It appears that the gap between the two in the pre owned market is getting narrower all the time and soon they would be priced the same.

I like the fact that the bezel can be cheaply replaced on the previous model. On the newer model i think the ceramic bezel looks more snazzy.

Is the ceramic model really worth 1000usd more. Call it 1600usd more actually as most are approaching service time.

Opinions pls.
Thank you in advance.

[tkerrmd]

Yes IMHO the newest sub is the best sub (no offense vintage guys)
The case, bezel, dial, and especially clasp are all well worth the money

[Malbolge]

Originally Posted by tkerrmd

Yes IMHO the newest sub is the best sub (no offense vintage guys)
The case, bezel, dial, and especially clasp are all well worth the money

Well, thats subjective but I will agree. What swayed for me is the price of used vs BNIB later maxi case models. The spread is so small I saw no reason to buy the old one, especially that I love the maxi case and how it wears.

[shakin_jake]

Quote:
Originally Posted by tkerrmd

Yes IMHO the newest sub is the best sub (no offense vintage guys)
The case, bezel, dial, and especially clasp are all well worth the money

Originally Posted by Malbolge

Well, thats subjective but I will agree. What swayed for me is the price of used vs BNIB later maxi case models. The spread is so small I saw no reason to buy the old one, especially that I love the maxi case and how it wears.

~~~totally agree... That said, I enjoy reading older sub fanbois drone on about how the older lineage is [insert appropriate adjective here]

Before I forget Malbolge, I perused your thread yesterday, the one with pics of a quality NATO on your 114060...very nice!

[douglasf13]

Originally Posted by shakin_jake

Quote:
Originally Posted by tkerrmd

Yes IMHO the newest sub is the best sub (no offense vintage guys)
The case, bezel, dial, and especially clasp are all well worth the money

Hey, I'm not really a vintage guy. I'm just a Sub guy, but the Sub line unfortunately ended around 2010, so I guess I'll be a vintage guy, one day.

The hard part is that the Vintage Forum doesn't really cater to the 16610/14060, and the General Discussion forum has had enough turnover and new users that it's finally become Ceramic-centric, so us 16610/14060 people are in limbo.

[997.2]

Originally Posted by douglasf13

Hey, I'm not really a vintage guy. I'm just a Sub guy, but the Sub line unfortunately ended around 2010, so I guess I'll be a vintage guy, one day.

The hard part is that the Vintage Forum doesn't really cater to the 16610/14060, and the General Discussion forum has had enough turnover and new users that it's finally become Ceramic-centric, so us 16610/14060 people are in limbo.

SHOTS FIRED!!!!!!!


I agree though.

Not much better than this.

[travisb]

Originally Posted by tkerrmd

Yes IMHO the newest sub is the best sub (no offense vintage guys)
The case, bezel, dial, and especially clasp are all well worth the money

Same thought here.

[rollee1]

In a nut shell yes, because of the updated bracelet and glidelock.

However USD5k for a 16610 (mint full kit) is a no brainer, I'll go for that one.

[Bangel]

The difference between new and old is more than just the bezel insert.

Some believe the Glidelock clasp alone is worth the price difference

As a suggestion, I think you should decide for yourself which one you'd choose if money was no object and then work backwards from there.

[Rolexbiker]

Originally Posted by Bangel

The difference between new and old is more than just the bezel insert.

Some believe the Glidelock clasp alone is worth the price difference

As a suggestion, I think you should decide for yourself which one you'd choose if money was no object and then work backwards from there.

+1 Glidelock makes all the difference

[up2nogood]

I'm not much good to you, I own both! But the 16610 you're looking at will have the same bracelet as the 02 you owned and weren't overly impressed with.

Get the ceramic, sounds like you'll be happier with it.

[Great_mazinger]

The new Sub case alone is worth it IMHO.

[AK797]

Originally Posted by Great_mazinger

The new Sub case alone is worth it IMHO.

[WS9D]

As others have said, the bracelet on the ceramics is worth it. There are a lot of times that I contemplate getting a glide lock on my gmt2c as has been mentioned on other threads. I love the bracelet on my SubC. If the money isn't an issue, go for the SubC.

[lmcgbaj]

I would get a new SubC unless you go into real vintage 1680s and such. The 5 digit references are nothing to write home about IMO.

[docjamal]

Wow what a response. Thanks so much.
Will wait a bit for more opinions.

What is the reason collectors seem to favour the older model?

[Furbo]

Originally Posted by docjamal

Wow what a response. Thanks so much.
Will wait a bit for more opinions.

What is the reason collectors seem to favour the older model?

When did collectors ever favor latest model still in production and easy to get? :)

[docjamal]

Originally Posted by Furbo

When did collectors ever favor latest model still in production and easy to get? :)

Stupid question i admit...

[Great_mazinger]

Originally Posted by docjamal

Stupid question i admit...

Not stupid, look how high prices are when a watch is still new to the market. Example; when the pelagos came out the prices on the secondary market were crazy high. Yes, I understand when something is out of production there is greater collectibility, but there's no denying the demand when a product is new as well. There wouldn't be line for the new iPhone if that wasn't the case.

[descartes]

Originally Posted by docjamal

Wow what a response. Thanks so much.
Will wait a bit for more opinions.

What is the reason collectors seem to favour the older model?

Many reasons. Matte dials, patina, no two are exactly alike, warm look of plexiglass, superdome and high hat crystals, collector v. consumer nature, and (most of all for me) scholarly nature of vintage Rolex where details and fine distinctions are critical etc. etc.

There is also the thrill of the hunt. Anyone can walk into an AD, whip out their credit card and buy the current model. Vintage, on the other hand, you need to know what your doing, study up and/or participate with a community to share knowledge. (which is a lot of fun).

I love my modern Rolexes too, but vintage is far more interesting and engaging as a hobby.

[malnik]

Originally Posted by docjamal

Wow what a response. Thanks so much.
Will wait a bit for more opinions.

What is the reason collectors seem to favour the older model?

Steel 16610 Submariner is not a collector item. It's one of the highest produced Rolex ever and they are highly available because most of them survived. The prices are appreciating because used Rolex prices overall are increasing. Expect this watch to depreciate once used Sub-C becomes more available in the market in the coming years.

[douglasf13]

Originally Posted by docjamal

Wow what a response. Thanks so much.
Will wait a bit for more opinions.

What is the reason collectors seem to favour the older model?

It's because the 16610 has the same general case shape and bezel insert design that the Sub has used since the late 50s, which, IMO, looks better on just about any sized person or wrist. There's always the SD4000 and Deep Sea, if one wants larger or bulkier with more tech, and both of these are better proportioned than the SubC, IMO.

It's also not an age thing, either. I'm a musician-looking guy (whatever that means ) with tattoos, long hair, t-shirt and jeans every day, etc., and the appeal of Rolex has long been that they still make new watches that have some vintage appeal, which is what was often the complaint about Omega.

Omega lost their way by changing their various models too much over the years. Oddly enough, with watches like the Speedmaster Pro, Ploprof and new 300 Master, Omega has as many or more watches that are very close to their original versions than Rolex does. Go figure.

It kind of reminds me of Leica M. The digital Leica M240 is more technically advanced and up to date, but it looks bloated and overwrought next to a beautifully sleek Leica MP. The problem is that watches are more of an anachronism, so the aesthetics are a larger issue, since watches toe the line between tool and jewelery more than a camera does.

[Tseg]

It is a question of functional vs. collectable. Older model Subs are more collectable because the style is no longer being produced. Functionally, new Subs are built to be more comfortable and remain new looking much longer.

[Sublover2166]

The new bracelets and CNC machined clasp are light years ahead of the previous hollow link bracelets and stamped steel tuna can clasps. The weight of the bracelet and solid feel make it more adequate for a several thousand dollar timepiece. While I own both old and new style Subs, in my opinion you would be happier with the newer version Sub. I will never part with my 18 year old 16613 though as it has been on my wrist and seen many places in the world. Sentimental value as they say.

[locutus49]

Go with the new. It sounds like you are hard to please, so the advanced bracelet of the newer one should work for you.

[joli160]

Glidelock clasp alone is worth it imho. I don't think the previous 16610 sub will ever become as collectible as i.e. the 1680.

[Kneecough]

New, for all the reasons mentioned above. Unless of course you are one of those who "really" prefers the look of the old, otherwise I see no reason to not get all of the upgrades they put into the ceramic version.

[FTX I]

I can't adjust the 16610. The bracelet with 4 + 1/2 links at 6 o'clock is too long for my wrist size. So I have the latest versions.

[Onikage]

The 16610 will continue to rise in value due to diminishing availability and condition. Look what happened to the 16710 especially since the Pepsi ceramic came out. There are thousands out there but crispy ones can only get rarer and command a premium. Buy whichever you like best.

[AboutTime]

The bracelet of the SubC 11661x can easily be adjusted to perfectly fit people with small wrists (like me, with 6 1/4 inch wrists). It's not so easy to adjust the older Sub bracelets for small wrists. If you're lucky enough to have "normal-sized" wrists, the bracelet on the SubC is still far better than the bracelet on the older Sub.