Fake or real Patek Aquanaut ?

[raduwishpond]

Hey guys, I purchased this watch on eBay:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/232031379343...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
And I realize that it's about $15000 USD under market value. We all know that if something is too good to be true it probably is.
The seller wants me to pay through direct bank transfer, which means it's going to be almost impossible to get a refund.

What do you guys think ? Any giveaway that it's fake? Have you guys ever dealt with the guy ?
This is his site: http://miller-jewelry.com/home.php

Thanks in advance for your help.

[offrdmania]

The paypal caveat for only accepting under $3000 is most likely because Paypal steals 4% of the transaction amount

[AK797]

Very likely that you will get a fake, altho not seen fake Tiffanys, or that it is stolen. I'd only pay by credit card and then check if it is real or stolen.

[KarlS]

Biggest concern I have is the strap looks more black than brown and the "Swiss Made" is missing. Otherwise bloody good fake!

[raduwishpond]

Originally Posted by KarlS

Biggest concern I have is the strap looks more black than brown and the "Swiss Made" is missing. Otherwise bloody good fake!

I have a feeling it might just be the angle for the swiss made. If it was a fake why would it have the tiffany logo ? Seems like a hassle.

The strap does seem more towards black but it might just be the lighting.

[freefly]

Originally Posted by raduwishpond

I have a feeling it might just be the angle for the swiss made.

That was my first thought as well, as the watch does look real at first glance. Also, I believe some of the earlier models were produced without the "Swiss Made" on the dial.

However, in this case you can clearly see that the minute marks @ 29 & 31 are shortened for the "Swiss Made" print to fit under them, but it does not appear to be present.
You can also clearly see the bottom of the 30min marker (6 o'clock), which would be the same plane that the "Swiss Made" print would be on.
On the versions without the "Swiss Made" those minute markers are the same as all the rest (full-length).

Plus, the T&C logo appears to be in the wrong position on the dial.


Now combine the above issues with the following:

* Issue with the strap color.
* Reluctance of the seller to take a pic of the movement.
* Insistance by the seller to pay by wire transfer only (against eBay policy I believe).
* Too-good-to-be-true price.

For me, it's a pretty clear case of run-don't walk. YMMV...

[GLADIATOR]

My opinion its fake
The fakes of this model are very, very good, but for some reason do not have SWISS MADE like yours doesn't
The lume looks different on yours
But most worrying - no movement photo, and this watch has an exhibition back.
We need a photo of balance wheel and rotor, it should look like this
https://www.google.es/search?q=patek...QR2iwZ7mExM%3A
adam

[marcusjcw21]

I believe it to be genuine.

[GLADIATOR]

Originally Posted by marcusjcw21

I believe it to be genuine.

?
Maybe I missed the movement photo?

[marcusjcw21]

Originally Posted by GLADIATOR

?
Maybe I missed the movement photo?

I'm looking at the overall picture... all of the listing photos, the website, all of the other items he has listed on ebay, and the items shown in his feedback that he has sold.

Like the most recent feedback was for a $14,500 Patek and the buyer referred to him as a "Trusted Seller." That's just one of the examples.

Look at all the watches he has sold for more money than this $8,500 watch combined with all of the others that also aren't cheap... Panerai, Breguet, Patek, Paul Newman Daytona for $35k, etc.

The whole picture tells me that I don't need to see the movement on this one. Of course, it is always wise to take it somewhere to have it authenticated upon receipt of the watch, but imho all looks good.

[raduwishpond]

Originally Posted by GLADIATOR

?
Maybe I missed the movement photo?

I requested for a photo of the movement and he said it would reveal too much information from the seller. Which makes no sense as it doesn't show any more info than the certificate of origin. I'll ask him one more time and if he doesn't want to send it, I will probably decline to make the transfer.
I could just pay the extra 4% and do paypal and I would be safe.

[GLADIATOR]

Originally Posted by raduwishpond

I requested for a photo of the movement and he said it would reveal too much information from the seller. Which makes no sense as it doesn't show any more info than the certificate of origin. I'll ask him one more time and if he doesn't want to send it, I will probably decline to make the transfer.
I could just pay the extra 4% and do paypal and I would be safe.

"reveal what?" The truth!

Without a movement photo of that balance wheel, I would not send more than $150.
The price of a fake

A

[AK797]

Originally Posted by raduwishpond

I requested for a photo of the movement and he said it would reveal too much information from the seller. Which makes no sense as it doesn't show any more info than the certificate of origin. I'll ask him one more time and if he doesn't want to send it, I will probably decline to make the transfer.
I could just pay the extra 4% and do paypal and I would be safe.

It does look real to me so he should have no issue showing the movement unless the pics are real but not his and the watch sent will be fake.

Also ask why he's selling it so cheap, it really is at a stolen watch price, and he is no amateur.

[marcusjcw21]

This guy has positive feedback on ebay for somewhere between $150,000 and $200,000 worth of high end watches IN THE LAST MONTH.

I would recommend paying by paypal, but that is a pretty good track record from a variety of buyers in the last month that say he is good and safe to deal with.

[freefly]

Originally Posted by marcusjcw21

This guy has positive feedback on ebay for somewhere between $150,000 and $200,000 worth of high end watches IN THE LAST MONTH.

That may be true, but as has been proven numerous times, 100% feedback on eBay really doesn't mean much.
Take our recent friend "Superiorvintagewatches" for instance. That guy has 100% feedback as well, and sells nothing but garbage.

I bet countless eBay seller feedback profiles would change drastically if transactions were allowed to remain open to comment indefinitely.
As it stands now, a guy could buy a fake unknowingly, then only find out several months/years down when it is serviced or inspected for sale.
At that point, he basically has no recourse, and can't comment on the transaction any longer.


Who knows, this guy with the Patek could very well be selling "mostly" legit watches, but throwing a few high-end fakes into the mix to help the bottom line. I'd say there is also the possibility of the seller getting duped from wherever he sourced it.
However, the fact that he is reluctant to take pics of the movement (and the lame reason given) suggests that he knows it's fake.

[marcusjcw21]

Originally Posted by freefly

That may be true, but as has been proven numerous times, 100% feedback on eBay really doesn't mean much.
Take our recent friend "Superiorvintagewatches" for instance. That guy has 100% feedback as well, and sells nothing but garbage.

I bet countless eBay seller feedback profiles would change drastically if transactions were allowed to remain open to comment indefinitely.
As it stands now, a guy could buy a fake unknowingly, then only find out several months/years down when it is serviced or inspected for sale.
At that point, he basically has no recourse, and can't comment on the transaction any longer.


Who knows, this guy with the Patek could very well be selling "mostly" legit watches, but throwing a few high-end fakes into the mix to help the bottom line. I'd say there is also the possibility of the seller getting duped from wherever he sourced it.
However, the fact that he is reluctant to take pics of the movement (and the lame reason given) suggests that he knows it's fake.

I disagree with your assertion that feedback on ebay doesn't mean much. It is a public record of transactions. Might I remind you that the revered James Dowling is currently being sued for $700,000 for a refund for watches that other experts said were bogus as well as $1.3 million in punitive damages. Plus attorneys fees.

It is looking to me like people on this forum pick and choose who to pick on and who to support based on longevity on the forum.

Robert Maron seems to have a good standing with the IWJG and sells millions of dollars of watches to celebs. He is probably the most famous dealer in the world. Yet, he is referred to as a criminal, fraud, and "Moron" here on this forum.

I would say to the OP that a lot of the postings here seem to be designed to direct traffic away from sellers who aren't "in the club" so to speak. It's pretty disappointing and transparent if you ask me.

[freefly]

Originally Posted by marcusjcw21

I disagree with your assertion that feedback on ebay doesn't mean much.

Well, you are free to disagree, but in the very post you quoted, I gave a prime example of how 100% feedback can be meaningless.

Originally Posted by marcusjcw21

It is looking to me like people on this forum pick and choose who to pick on and who to support based on longevity on the forum.

I think your tinfoil hat may be on too tight.
IIRC, I recently backed you up on the 6536 thread you posted.

Originally Posted by marcusjcw21

I would say to the OP that a lot of the postings here seem to be designed to direct traffic away from sellers who aren't "in the club" so to speak. It's pretty disappointing and transparent if you ask me.

And I would say to you that is pretty bold accusation. One that you may be asked to back up with facts.
It has been my experience/observation that nobody is immune from criticism when something questionable pops up.
The fact that members here have no qualms about taking "watch celebrities" to task just reinforces that notion.

[marcusjcw21]

Originally Posted by freefly

Well, you are free to disagree, but in the very post you quoted, I gave a prime example of how 100% feedback can be meaningless.


I think your tinfoil hat may be on too tight.
IIRC, I recently backed you up on the 6536 thread you posted.


And I would say to you that is pretty bold accusation. One that you may be asked to back up with facts.
It has been my experience/observation that nobody is immune from criticism when something questionable pops up.
The fact that members here have no qualms about taking "watch celebrities" to task just reinforces that notion.

Okay you mentioned for instance ebay user superiorvintagewatches. I'm sure that as did many other people by the number of views on the topic posted by Michael M. who advertises his instagram account _michael_morgan and on it you can see his website iconicwatchcompany.com. He seems to be a trusted seller here. When I looked at the listings of superiorvintagewatches and its feedback, I didn't see anything that compelled me to post anything to support that thread. I also noticed that not many of the usual people who jump on board to report things and chime in about topics on watchout had much to say on that thread. Something is fishy with that situation. It seems like a personal attack of some sort. I have also seen people blindly support James Dowling who could have avoided all of the negative publicity he has recently received if he had refunded the seller his $700,000 on watches that Mr. Dowling has stated "went up in value." If they went up in value, then why not refund the money and sell those watches at a higher margin while simultaneously avoiding the negative publicity. Jeff Hess (who co-authored Dowling's book) has also received some wrongful criticism for an 18k watch as having a fake dial here, but it was later proven to be a different model and correct for that model. Now he is being supported positively in his thread about re-selling a frankenwatch. People are saying to part it out, but no people are criticizing him for even having to ask that question about whether or not he should sell that franken. There are many more examples and lots of inconsistency in determinations about provenance on watches that seem to favor "trusted sellers" with longevity on the forum. It's pretty blatant what goes on here with regards to outing or picking on certain people while providing blind support for others.

[raduwishpond]

Thank you for all your help ! You guys are awesome. I would definitely not even look twice if his feedback wasn't so good on ebay. I've had a problem before with a fake watch and Ebay refunded me 100%.
I will ask for another picture from the top just to make sure the "swiss made" is missing.
I will offer to pay the extra 4% so that I get covered by PayPal.
I understand it seems too good to be true but maybe this is that one rare time I found a good deal.

Sent from my SM-G935W8 using Tapatalk

[freefly]

Originally Posted by raduwishpond

I will offer to pay the extra 4% so that I get covered by PayPal.

OP: Sorry for the thread-drift. Now back on track:

I'd walk personally, but that's your call. AFAIK, it's against eBay & PayPal policy for sellers to even ask buyers to pay the transaction fee (let alone put it in their listing).
If you still proceed, the PP fee is actually less than 4%. For a sale price of $8500, the PP fee would be $246.80.

Again, I am NOT recommending you go forward.

Here, this might help with your decision...Please notice the location of the T&C logo on each of these dials:

Watch you won:
http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/ZDEAAO...-~/s-l1600.jpg

Watch from trusted seller here, DavidSW:
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/160...905/EcawVx.jpg

[brmeyers]

I have this watch and looked at my watch and the pics back and forth, and could not see any hint of anything different (except the Tiffany & Co. lettering).

I agree that a high res. picture of the movement is needed.

If that is a fake, than all I can say is its a fake well done, at least from the front!

[jeff hess]

Yes, thanks... for correcting the thread-drift!

Not sure how my name got into this. :)

i have a store in st. pete and one in Tampa, so maybe I can go check this watch out in person. (oddly, I have never heard of Millers Jewelry)

Jeff

[AU_911tt]

If you look at his sold listings they are all selling at too good to be true prices. Another 5167 steel sold for $8500, Richard Mille for $9900? He also posted the movement on the 5167 steel.

The are many at too good to be true prices. I would stay away from this guy.

[KarlS]

I think you should definately buy it:
a) Any Seller that sells hundreds of thousands of dollars of high end watches a month without having a reserve price, sure sells like he is either dumb, is a fence or money laundering;
b) I think your firs post in 2015 was about another Ebay Patek in the Philipinnes, so you have prior history of knowing whats fake;
c) The fact that he is not showing a movement to protect the identity of the seller..implies that he is not the owner..so who is he then? Refer to A.
Let us know how it goes

[GLADIATOR]

In my opinion, you should never buy ahigh end luxury watch with following screaming issues
1) price far below its worth
2) poor photos
3) no movement photos
4) added provenance value like Tiffany
5) seller unwilling or unable to supply further photos or answers

All screams "beware"

Even if the seller has previous integrity, even sellers are being duped, I have a similar Audermars Piquet, that is exactly the quality of this watch, would dupe nearly everyone, yet it's a "ultra super fake" (my words)

I can not fathom, anyone advising the OP to purchase this watch, with so many "buyer beware" red flags.

As I stated previously, I think watch is a fake
Adam

[RKTudor]

Whoa! I go to sleep for a few hours and all heck breaks loose.

Back on subject. What did you end up doing OP? Are you paying and waiting to see what happened when it arrives?

[RKTudor]

Originally Posted by GLADIATOR

In my opinion, you should never buy ahigh end luxury watch with following screaming issues
1) price far below its worth
2) poor photos
3) no movement photos
4) added provenance value like Tiffany
5) seller unwilling or unable to supply further photos or answers

All screams "beware"

Even if the seller has previous integrity, even sellers are being duped, I have a similar Audermars Piquet, that is exactly the quality of this watch, would dupe nearly everyone, yet it's a "ultra super fake" (my words)

I can not fathom, anyone advising the OP to purchase this watch, with so many "buyer beware" red flags.

As I stated previously, I think watch is a fake
Adam

(4) was a good point. The added provenance of a boutique/store (e.g. Tiffany) should be a red flag. Even when everything else on the watch looks perfect, the Tiffany is often questioned... Because it can be added and the price immediately climbs.

Very good points Gladiator.

[jeff hess]

I would respectfully have to with great respect disagree with much of the below.

Specifically, 1) 3) 4) and to a lesser extent 5)

1) Far below what it is "Worth" "Worth" is defined legally at least four different ways. Retail, wholesale, Fair Market and liquidation values. In a mom and pop type auction business we typically see higher prices...perhaps high wholesale at auction with reserves or with high buy-it-nows. With larger auction venues, with people who move a lot of goods or with people selling things to settle estates things often go for "no reserve" or "low starting prices". In cases of cash flow or quick sale great buys can be had on ebay.

3)Often, especially with bigger auction houses movement shots are never shown. This could be for many reasons. The Auction house has a great rep. Or the auction house moves hundreds of thousands of dollars per month and has no time. The auction house employs posters who are not qualified to open an expensive watch. The watch has box and papers AND the selling company has a good rep.

4) you won't buy a watch that has added provenance like Tiffany?? That is patently absurd. Send them my way please. In many markets the added provenance of Tiffany (BTW, your whol sentence is ridiculous...if you know the word "provenance" (essentially "proof") then you wrote that if it has proof that it is Tiffany you do not want to buy it. Weird.

5) agreed on this one to a point. We often have people who want us to send them 20 macro of photos of the right side of the third pip. or the lume on the top corner of the "6" or in one case "Please send me photos of the bezel after you take off the bezel insert".

Jeff

Originally Posted by GLADIATOR

In my opinion, you should never buy ahigh end luxury watch with following screaming issues
1) price far below its worth
2) poor photos
3) no movement photos
4) added provenance value like Tiffany
5) seller unwilling or unable to supply further photos or answers

All screams "beware"

Even if the seller has previous integrity, even sellers are being duped, I have a similar Audermars Piquet, that is exactly the quality of this watch, would dupe nearly everyone, yet it's a "ultra super fake" (my words)

I can not fathom, anyone advising the OP to purchase this watch, with so many "buyer beware" red flags.

As I stated previously, I think watch is a fake
Adam

[freefly]

Originally Posted by jeff hess

3)Often, especially with bigger auction houses movement shots are never shown. This could be for many reasons. The Auction house has a great rep. Or the auction house moves hundreds of thousands of dollars per month and has no time. The auction house employs posters who are not qualified to open an expensive watch. The watch has box and papers AND the selling company has a good rep.

Agree with the above, but in this case, the seller doesn't appear to be an auction house of any sort, let alone a high-volume one (he's currently got 13 watches listed). I am guessing it's a one-man operation.

Also, this watch has a display back, so it wouldn't require opening. Just a clear, hi-res shot of the movement through the glass would suffice.

Also, the OP mentioned that reason that the seller declined providing a shot of the case back was that "it would reveal too much information from the seller." This doesn't make sense, as the only information that could be seen as "sensitive" is clearly visible on the cert he has included with the listing. Also, I believe the watch could easily be positioned to obscure the numbers on the movement with the rotor if it was really a concern.

So, maybe the SN on the movement doesn't match the SN on the papers, and the seller doesn't want to reveal that. Or, maybe he's using stolen photos altogether. Or, maybe it's the perfect storm of coincidences and the watch and seller are totally legit. I just know I wouldn't be wiring $8500 (outside of eBay protection) to this guy. Everyone's "mileage may vary" I suppose.

If I were the OP, I would definitely take you up on your offer to go check it out in person though!
However, that is probably a moot point, as I suspect that the seller wouldn't do a FTF. Would be interesting to see if he'd allow it...

[mapalfa]

Adam, what are your thoughts on the Rolex that's for sale from the same ebay shop?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/100-AUTHENTI...MAAOSwRgJXhdoZ

I'm way off being an expert, but the coronet looks out to me.