Rolex with No box & papers

[vatey]

Hello,

I have been into watch lately after my first big purchase Omega Sea Master that I have been wearing for 18 years. Looking at this forum, I notice that there are many Rolex watches in Grey market that does not come with box and more importantly no papers, manual, booklet, warrantee cards...etc. As novice I am, those items add more value and confident to the deal. So I assume if it were brought by Consumer, they could be lost or misplaced. However, if the watch comes from other source in watch business, those items should be well kept and come along to grey market. Do I understand correctly?

Thanks,

[Kevin of Larchmont]

Some people value a box and papers more than others, both buyers and sellers. Some people throw them away or lose them and no longer have them to move forward with the watch to future buyers. One fear of buying a watch without box and papers is that lack of a full set could raise the possibility that the watch might be stolen; I personally think the odds are long on that. I’ve only ever purchased used Rolex from an AD and so I worry less about box and papers as provenance. From a random seller, even a trusted seller, I might worry a little more. It’s all up to you.

[EEpro]

If it's Rolex there isn't really a grey market. All watches are sold at authorized dealers at which time the warranty is activated.

The Rolex boxes are crap and sell for like $250-300 and can be bought on eBay whereas the warranty card can be worth much more depending on the model and of course value in the eye of the buyer.

[rushca01]

I’m struggling with this myself right now….good price but no papers.

[padi56]

Originally Posted by rushca01

I’m struggling with this myself right now….good price but no papers.

Well in the real world boxes papers etc are far easier to fake that the watches so never rely on these items to prove authenticity of any watch unless bought from a 100% reliable source.

[MRBolton]

The older the watch is, generally the higher the likelihood the previous owner lost the accessories to the watch, as watches previously weren't seen as much as investments as they are today. Generally, it's best to buy the complete set. This typically will drive up the cost. However, if you ever sell the watch, it's going to be easier to sell when you have all the documentation.

That said, just because it's a complete set doesn't mean it's for sure not stolen... just like not having a complete set doesn't mean it's stolen. You'll need to carefully select the seller and preferably buy from one whom you trust to make things right if something does end up being wrong with the watch.

If it were me, I'd be willing to spend the slight premium generally to have the complete set. However, I have once bought a Yachtmaster that wasn't complete. The seller had the receipt from Jomashop and a believable story to go along with it, coupled with a good reputation. Once I received it, I brought it to my AD's watchmaker who said that it didn't show up in the Rolex stolen database.

So, in short, if you can afford a complete set--do it! If you want/need to save a little money, then buy the "naked" watch, but be careful whom you get it from!

[amphr1]

I can buy without a box but will never buy without paper. But that's just me. Obviously everything can be faked.

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[PBJ1925]

No papers no buy for me. Boxes aren't a huge deal, unless tied to a special edition (I.E. AP, Patek, etc..). Personally speaking at a stretch, maybe recent RSC service papers could be considered depending on model.

[thatswhatshesaid]

Originally Posted by PBJ1925

No papers no buy for me. Boxes aren't a huge deal, unless tied to a special edition (I.E. AP, Patek, etc..). Personally speaking at a stretch, maybe recent RSC service papers could be considered depending on model.

The problem is that fake warranty cards and RSC cards can be bought and can be customized to match a specific serial number.

[GMT Aviator]

Lots of faked papers out there, which when bundled with the watch, and a box (which is easy to obtain), even buying with B&P can't always ensure peace of mind.

I've bought many Rolex without B&P and when I do I always take them straight to `RSC for service which in turn gives me authentic service papers, registered to me and identifies if the watch is registered as stolen or not.

I did get bitten one time only, and without going into the whole sorry saga, Rolex did service the watch and return it to me as the rightful owner. I still have it and its been a great watch.

Its often said, 'buy the seller;. In other words do your due diligence on who is selling the watch, how long have they been in business, where did they get the watch from, did they know the previous owner as a regular customer etc etc.

Generally, the problem isn't as endemic as people think. Most Rolex from good sellers or reputable jewellers are more than likely the real deal.

Personally I think people have become paranoid about B&P to the extent it blinds them to the fact that even a bundle with B&P can just a likely have a dubious history as a watch without.

[Gerardus]

No B+P is a No-Go for me. Personally I want to have only complete sets.

[joli160]

No way I buy without ever, not even for dirt cheap prices

[HHIslander]

If you’re sure you’re going to wear it forever and never sell, a watch without box and papers can be worth the price discount as long as you buy from a trusted seller. If you think you might sell it some day, get box and papers.

[PenDelicate]

Buy box and papers from a brick-and-mortar second-hand dealer who's been in-business for more than 5 years. Especially as this is your first Rolex. The risk of doing otherwise simply isn't worth the savings.

[Ninja Master]

Originally Posted by vatey

Hello,

I have been into watch lately after my first big purchase Omega Sea Master that I have been wearing for 18 years. Looking at this forum, I notice that there are many Rolex watches in Grey market that does not come with box and more importantly no papers, manual, booklet, warrantee cards...etc. As novice I am, those items add more value and confident to the deal. So I assume if it were brought by Consumer, they could be lost or misplaced. However, if the watch comes from other source in watch business, those items should be well kept and come along to grey market. Do I understand correctly?

Thanks,

I wouldn't. Have a look at some of the modern fakes. They're almost identical to genuine watches. Typically you need to open the case back to identify the fake movement, but even then the movements are now decorated to look like real movements, so you really need to know what you're doing.

[Deppe]

Originally Posted by Ninja Master

I wouldn't. Have a look at some of the modern fakes. They're almost identical to genuine watches. Typically you need to open the case back to identify the fake movement, but even then the movements are now decorated to look like real movements, so you really need to know what you're doing.

I love this kind of thinking - “See how good some of the super fakes are these days, almost impossible to tell from the real thing. Lucky that they will absolutely not be able to fake a plastic card and a plastic box!!”.

[0nly5iv3Digits]

Originally Posted by Deppe

I love this kind of thinking - “See how good some of the super fakes are these days, almost impossible to tell from the real thing. Lucky that they will absolutely not be able to fake a plastic card and a plastic box!!”.

Don't worry, this couldn't be further from the truth. Under the loupe, the "BEST" clones are quite easily distinguished as the trash that they are.

The real scary thing imo is high-end frankens.... you could end up with a "Genstein" - a watch that is genuine in every regard, but was "built" from parts off of many (different) stolen watches...

Yeah, sticking to my full-sets, thanks

[vatey]

Originally Posted by 0nly5iv3Digits

Don't worry, this couldn't be further from the truth. Under the loupe, the "BEST" clones are quite easily distinguished as the trash that they are.

The real scary thing imo is high-end frankens.... you could end up with a "Genstein" - a watch that is genuine in every regard, but was "built" from parts off of many (different) stolen watches...

Yeah, sticking to my full-sets, thanks

Could that be true with Full-sets?

[0nly5iv3Digits]

Originally Posted by vatey

Could that be true with Full-sets?

Hypothetically speaking, yes it can. But the odds are astronomically low, i would think. One would need the original warranty paper along with the original case to make the watch correct.

Stolen watches are nearly always reported as such, and often taken off-wrist of victims or taken in home invasions etc., so unlikely a thief will get a watch along with it's corresponding paperwork.

Many stolen watches surface in Italy and other "watch-crime" hubs where they are stripped for parts and sold individually.

In conclusion, and to re-iterate. I think it EXTREMELY unlikely that one would find a genstein watch with matching paperwork to make the watch appear like a full-set. The only way I see this is if the watch case is aftermarket, or is a gen that has been re-engraved. Either way, an expert will be able to tell with good accuracy. While nothing is 100%, this is your best bet in terms of buying pre-owned. Of course, buy the seller, do your research, check to make sure that build dates and clasp/end-link/case engravings are correct and of the right period, as well as movement etc. If everything looks right, it is right. If anything looks out of place, even slightly, further probing is required.

[Ninja Master]

Originally Posted by Deppe

I love this kind of thinking - “See how good some of the super fakes are these days, almost impossible to tell from the real thing. Lucky that they will absolutely not be able to fake a plastic card and a plastic box!!”.

The box is usually the giveaway! That's probably part of the reason scammers don't like to include the box, as the fakes are bad.

Of course, they could purchase and use a real box, but usually scammers aren't that sophisticated.

[kwingy]

If you know the watch is 100% legit at a great price and you plan to keep and wear maybe forever then personally having box and papers is not a big deal in this situation. It's only if you plan to sell it on that it troublesome.

[0nly5iv3Digits]

Papers are important, for reasons I find many don’t appreciate - forget about “collectibility” and think “practicality”.

Having original papers gives peace of mind, knowing the watch in question (likely) hasn’t been reported stolen to Rolex.

FYI, a stolen Rolex that shows up at an AD for service is seized…. The last thing you want to do is buy a “naked” watch and then have no choice but to send it to RSC for service down the line, only to have it seized from you because you didn’t know it was stolen.

Be smart; buy a piece with original papers, or at least a very recent service card.

[gerry100]

got my 16570 with no B&P from an AD.

Certified service and warranty.

Never selling so I dont see a need for B&P

[1William]

I typically only buy complete sets but I have bough without box and papers before and will do it again for the right watch and price. Just understand that if you want to sell a watch without box and papers it will be a more difficult sell and worth less than a complete set. I have bought a box and manuals before and sent the watch to RSC for a service so in the end I had a complete set minus the original warranty but the service card took it's place. Buy the seller.

[TudorDXB]

New models - box and papers is a must
5 digit references and older - I am good without box and papers as long as the seller is someone I trust

[Miker86]

Originally Posted by TudorDXB

New models - box and papers is a must
5 digit references and older - I am good without box and papers as long as the seller is someone I trust

This for me. If you’re buying a recent watch then the vast majority of the original buyers keep the B&P. For older watches a lot of people didn’t care back in the day. Either way get from a reliable seller, ideally with a physical store.

[Njkdog]

The actual definition of a gray dealer is somebody who buys directly from the authorized dealer with the purpose of reselling. Normally in bulk quantities. think TJ Maxx.

Often a gray dealer will not have warranties. But they should indeed have Box and papers.

But there are no real gray dealers for Rolex. When anybody says that they really mean secondhand dealers or flippers or resellers.

If you’re buying from a reputable source, and you plan on actually keeping and wearing the watch, there’s no real reason to need the papers, I plan to buy my next Rolex, without papers, most likely

[yankeeromeo]

Unless vintage for me full set is minimum requirement

[Sgooter]

Box & Papers have always been a "must have" for me.

[Spoonage]

As many have stated it really depends on the person buying... All my Watches have been bought through AD so I have B&P except a vintage Tudor Sub in which the seller was well known on multiple forums. Bought it without B&P... In the end I wear the watch and not the papers... Last time I even touched my B&P for any of my watches is when I moved. They're currently buried in the bottom of a closet underneath a bunch of other random things.

All of the warranty cards are expired at this point, not planning on selling any of my watches so don't really think about them unless I respond to these types of threads.