Do you open a watch before buying?

[Mr. Bond]

Hi all,

I'm curious, do most of you inspect the movement/watch interior before buying a watch? Often, trusted sellers allow you to inspect a watch for a few days before the sale is final. Is it standard practice and accepted for the potential buyer to open the watch during that time? I suppose I am most interested in the answer as it relates to vintage watches.

On the one hand, the seller may not appreciate you or your watchmaker opening the watch, which, from the seller's perspective, risks damaging the watch or compromising its water resistance. On the other hand, if the buyer is about to plunk down a large chunk of money (e.g., for a red sub or other high value watch), the buyer probably wants to look behind the curtain and see what he/she is buying.

Your thoughts?

[dddrees]

All of mine have been purchased directly from an AD. I wasand am stilla newby and I didn't want to take any chances.

[Deep Sea]

Of the used watches I've bought (modern, not vintage), I've never had the guts inspected. I trust the seller implicitly before plunking down my cash, which negates the need (IMO) for an opening.

For a vintage watch, yes, I would definitely have the back opened. That being said, many of the vintage pieces you see for sale on the forums have pics of the movement, indicating the seller likely has no problem showing you the inside of the watch.

In the end, buy the seller, not the watch, and you'll likely be OK.

[theken]

When buying vintage sports watches, I am mostly concerned about the sellers reputation. I am not expert enough to really know 100% what I am looking for inside a watch.
Earlier this year I bought a 5512 from a Rolex AD in Ohio. They stated that their in-house watchmaker had completely serviced the watch.
That evening upon closer inspection, I discovered the 5512 dial was in a 1680 case and the date module had been removed from the movement.
I returned the watch the next day. They refunded my money ($6000) but never offered any explanation. To me, this transaction bordered on fraud.
On the other hand, I have bought very nice vintage pieces from other Rolex ADs as well as independent dealer/collectors.
I think the FS section of TRF when dealing with established sellers is one of the safest places to find vintage sports watches for non experts like myself.

[Mr. Bond]

Good info so far.

I agree that buying off of TRF is a good idea. At the same time, however, the seller, whoever it is, wants to sell a watch. Although there may not be a big problem with the watch, like the wrong movement, there may be minor issues (e.g., genuine, but not period-correct parts) that the seller would not call to your attention that may affect your decision to buy or not, or at least how much to pay. I personally think that it is unwise to implicitly trust anyone who is selling you something. Caveat emptor, right?

[Frogman4me]

Yeah buying vintage is a risky business and like most said its important to buy into the seller first. Ask a ton of questions and request the seller to open up the case and take pictures that way your not responsible if something goes wrong when you inspect it. In the end buying anything used is a risk but the idea is trying to minimize the amount or risk before spending your hard earned cash.

[Speed]

All of the above has kept me from going Vintage - so far.

[Mr. Bond]

Originally Posted by Speed

All of the above has kept me from going Vintage - so far.

Interesting. Unfortunately, I can't help but go vintage!

[Frogman4me]

Originally Posted by Mr. Bond

Interesting. Unfortunately, I can't help but go vintage!

Yes vintage is the way to go, I'm considering selling my entire collection to fund a meters first 1680 Red.

[Mr. Bond]

Originally Posted by Frogman4me

Yes vintage is the way to go, I'm considering selling my entire collection to fund a meters first 1680 Red.

Nice! I'm educating myself on red subs in anticipation of a purchase later in the year. Looking for a '69 sub with feet first (so I don't have to sell my fillings to buy it).

[Frogman4me]

Originally Posted by Mr. Bond

Nice! I'm educating myself on red subs in anticipation of a purchase later in the year. Looking for a '69 sub with feet first (so I don't have to sell my fillings to buy it).

haha, sounds like the smart thing to do. Post pics when you get that beauty

[sakuraba]

Originally Posted by Speed

All of the above has kept me from going Vintage - so far.

+1

As much as I love vintages, I will leave their ownership to more knowledgeable WISs.

[darthmouse]

I trust DavidSW, and don't plan on having it opened before service.

[fc3s2k]

My uncle had fake rolexes so I can tell the real vs. Fakes but I recently bought my polar explorer II from a trusted seller (justrolexes) and I didn't have the need to open it. I guess buy the seller not the watch!!

[chris russell]

the gall to take a pair of watches I had listed for sale, (a Patek and a '40's Omega Chronometer), to some local-yokel 'watchmaker' and have him crack the backs on both of them without my knowledge. (I knew the 'buyer', he said he wanted to take them home and 'think about them overnight'). The watchmaker was a cretin, scratched both cases getting the backs off, had basically no knowledge as to what he was looking at. He had heard of the name Patek, and praised the movement, but said the Omega had 'a' movement, that's about all he could say. The whole thing soured me on dealing with vintage watches, you run into this kind of perfidy all the time.

[Mr. Bond]

Originally Posted by chris russell

. . . the gall to take a pair of watches I had listed for sale, (a Patek and a '40's Omega Chronometer), to some local-yokel 'watchmaker' and have him crack the backs on both of them without my knowledge. (I knew the 'buyer', he said he wanted to take them home and 'think about them overnight'). The watchmaker was a cretin, scratched both cases getting the backs off, had basically no knowledge as to what he was looking at. He had heard of the name Patek, and praised the movement, but said the Omega had 'a' movement, that's about all he could say. The whole thing soured me on dealing with vintage watches, you run into this kind of perfidy all the time.

Thanks for chiming in. It's good to hear the seller's point of view as I am biased as a non-selling buyer. As someone said above, a good compromise may be to request the seller to open the watch and send the buyer some good macro pics, if they aren't already posted.

[Bdel]

if I really need to see the movement, I will ask the seller to have the back removed and take a picture along with my name or such, so i kniow it is authentic. I will be willing to pay for this if necessary.

[Warnsboy]

In the process of doing my diligence, I tell the Seller that I am on TRF with 5,000 friends that will humiliate him online and bash him to the point that he will refund my money. If the seller's legit he'll make the sale , otherwise he'll clam-up and run.


Seriously though, I am hesitant to open a sealed watch that should be pressure tested prior to use.

[Mr. Bond]

Some of the comments in favor of buying the seller remind me of a quote from the movie Tommy Boy:

"I can get a good look at a T-bone by sticking my head up a bull's ass, but I'd rather take the butcher's word for it."

[4u2buy89]

No, way i open every watch i buy and i actually try to make a point of opening every watch i sell to! its just piece of mind, there is far too many scammers out there.I understan people trust people which is good but iv only been into trading watces for about a year and already iv purchased 2 fakes! thankfully it was through paypal so i was covered but i just think that if you can see the insides you know what your buying.

[ed54]

I found a forum member who had exactly the watch I wanted, but not a significant reputation. I arranged to buy at his price, subject to having a watchmaker open the back. The watchmaker and I inspected the movement, and I bought the watch. A minor hassle perhaps, but the seller was having a hard time getting offers, so it was in his interest to spend a little extra time to meet me.

[antivenin]

I asked a similar question last week, and most responded by saying that it was unreasonable to ask an AD or TRF seller to open the caseback. I feel as though you should be able to request this, especially since you are about to spend thousands of dollars on a watch that is one of the most counterfeited items in the world.

[Mr. Bond]

Originally Posted by antivenin

I asked a similar question last week, and most responded by saying that it was unreasonable to ask an AD or TRF seller to open the caseback. I feel as though you should be able to request this, especially since you are about to spend thousands of dollars on a watch that is one of the most counterfeited items in the world.

I agree, although I am less concerned about counterfeit than everything being period correct for a vintage watch. As an example, I recently bought a watch that was 100% genuine Rolex, but the end links were not period correct for the head. Although I should have confirmed that they were the correct end links before buying (I didn't know anything about end links then), the seller, one trusted by many, did not point this out to me when I inquired about the watch and its originality. I mention this not to complain about the seller but to point out the importance of doing your diligence, regardless who you are buying from.

[Brushpup]

No need to open if you buy from the right source.

I will add that if I were selling, I would only refund the money if the watch movement was proved fake.

Therefore, I'd never be issuing refunds.

[SLS]

I bought a caseback opener from otto frei for about $80 with shipping. I have opened the backs of all of may vintage pieces upon receipt or before I bought them, with vintage Rolex you can never be to sure. The reason I open the back is that I know that once I agree to buy the watch, they are off to my local watchmaker for a quick once over and most likely receive a service. It is also critical to give the movement a quick peak to ensure there is no rust or corrosion inside the case.
Scott

[Mr. Bond]

Originally Posted by SLS

I bought a caseback opener from otto frei for about $80 with shipping. I have opened the backs of all of may vintage pieces upon receipt or before I bought them, with vintage Rolex you can never be to sure. The reason I open the back is that I know that once I agree to buy the watch, they are off to my local watchmaker for a quick once over and most likely receive a service. It is also critical to give the movement a quick peak to ensure there is no rust or corrosion inside the case.
Scott

Thanks. I was considering buying the LG opener for $80 from Otto Frei for the same purpose.

[SLS]

Originally Posted by Mr. Bond

Thanks. I was considering buying the LG opener for $80 from Otto Frei for the same purpose.

$80 is nothing compared to what you could lose. I would recommend getting the bench vise as well. They also have a nice screwdriver set and bracelet removal tool (bergeon 6111 I think) that are nice to have as well.
Scott

[rfknauss]

Only buy new from a Rolex AD ..... so not an issue for me.

[sparky]

the first rolex I bought was in a pawn shop in Hong Kong. I was about 22 and had the back removed-if I was to spend $300 HK ($60 US) I needed to see that the movement was real! 1974, or so.

[Lamone]

I always have the seller open the watch for inspection before I buy.