A military sub not quite what it appears to be

[T5AUS]

Anyone planing on biding on lot 306 in Antiqourum's sale in NY on the 15th should think twice after the following has been discover by eagle eyed member 964RS on the Vintage 54 Rolex forum as follows........

The watch below at antiquorum seems to have mysteriously found its missing case back??

http://catalog.antiquorum.com/catalo...&auctionid=240

It was for sale back in 2008 at Bonhams when it quite clearly had a mismatched case back and letter from Mr H stating that it was the wrong back and should have been marked 603/76.....

http://www.bonhams.com/cgi-bin/publi...aleSectionNo=1

Anyone know how it has mysteriously been reunited with its correct case back and has anyone any detailed pics of this case back inside or out??

A bit of skulduggery going on here it would seem

[RLX-lvr]

Very shadey IMHO.

Hopefully this piece is removed from auction.

[mcjp6]

Originally Posted by RLX-lvr

Hopefully this piece is removed from auction.

Unfortunately not Jeff, it sold including buyer's premium: 46,250 USD

[stevemulholland3]

acts like this are despicable and a disgrace to the collector community in general!

[watchkid]

good day to all. I am new to this forum and hope that no one minds me waking up an old thread. but for what its worth, I find it very interesting that this particular mils found its casebook because I have a milsub in my collection and I believe that I have the one and only original caseback for this watch because my millsub has mismatched caseback. so when I started researching this topic to find my original caseback I was very surprised to see that this one that was auction off in 2008 did not sell and then in 2010 it did sell with its matching casebaack. I found this very odd.

[scooba]

I think we all know with modern machining centre skills its more than possible to re-manufacture a case back , Purchase a 5513 back then have it machined ok to the expert eyes under a loupe it will be detected but Joe public won't know

believe all the original backs were stamped out in Geneva , but It would be a miracle to pair a genuine Milsub back with the correct lost back , but miracle can and do happen just my 2 cents

[Boaters]

Wow thats pricey

[fusionstorm]

Aaaahhhhhh!!! The hammer price on various Rolex lots in that Bonhams auction makes me wish I had a time machine......

[1675-David]

I hear you!! A lot has happened in 7 years!!

[watchkid]

so what would you suggest that I do with my milsub, since I have the one and only original caseback to the one that was sold in 2010?
my milsub has mismatched caseback , but its in extremely nice condition. as it was checked out by local Rolex dealer in Canada and also by Christies in NY.
is there some kind of web page that has mismatched case back list for milsubs? thanks advance

[roh123]

Originally Posted by watchkid

so what would you suggest that I do with my milsub, since I have the one and only original caseback to the one that was sold in 2010?
my milsub has mismatched caseback , but its in extremely nice condition. as it was checked out by local Rolex dealer in Canada and also by Christies in NY.
is there some kind of web page that has mismatched case back list for milsubs? thanks advance

Try your luck posting it on VRF and perhaps someone needs the one you have.

[watchkid]

I understand , but I need to find the matching caseback for my milsub aswell

[southtexas]

Originally Posted by watchkid

I understand , but I need to find the matching caseback for my milsub aswell

So your sub has the original caseback for the one which sold back in 2010 (when it didn't have its caseback a few years prior)?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[watchlovr]

As above, message Haywood, I did the same thing for one of my Milsubs which had a mismatched (but fully engraved) back, on this occasion he could not match it up.
Always worth a try.

[watchkid]

Originally Posted by southtexas

So your sub has the original caseback for the one which sold back in 2010 (when it didn't have its caseback a few years prior)?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yes correct. i have the original fully engraved casebook for the watch that sold in 2010. i think that the that particular watch had a remanufactured case back because i am the only one on the planet that has the original matching caseback for that watch. i don't understand how people can play around with such rare watches and try to pull a fast one at an auction with so much money at stake.

[watchkid]

Originally Posted by southtexas

So your sub has the original caseback for the one which sold back in 2010 (when it didn't have its caseback a few years prior)?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Correct. i have the original and only correct casebook to fit the watch that sold in 2010. i don't understand how people can be so conniving and misleading as to make a counterfeit caseback and put it up for auction. i also don't understand how the auction house can allow such a thing to happen.

[watchkid]

Originally Posted by watchkid

Correct. i have the original and only correct casebook to fit the watch that sold in 2010. i don't understand how people can be so conniving and misleading as to make a counterfeit caseback and put it up for auction. i also don't understand how the auction house can allow such a thing to happen.

sorry for double posting. I didn't see my post go up so I thought I would post again ,but I guess the mods had to approve it first.

[jedly1]

The aq back was a pretty poor facsimile and pointed out pretty quick

However , thanks to the database several of us keep , we have to date re united a total of three watches with their original backs by putting sellers in touch with owners of mismatches.

Likewise if you'd like to pm your details I will be happy to check the list and see if the whereabouts of your original back are known . 👍

[Haywood_Milton]

I’ve a number of mil subs as you can see from my signature, and I keep a reasonable database of all the numbers I’ve come across. If you would be willing to message me privately with the number you need to match I would be delighted to try to reunite separated parts.

As mil subs with incorrect backs most commonly have simply the back from another mil sub in place, it is logical to conclude that the mistaken unions took place while they were being serviced in batches at Herstmonceaux.

Haywood M

[Theurbancommando]

Originally Posted by Haywood_Milton

I’ve a number of mil subs as you can see from my signature, and I keep a reasonable database of all the numbers I’ve come across. If you would be willing to message me privately with the number you need to match I would be delighted to try to reunite separated parts.

As mil subs with incorrect backs most commonly have simply the back from another mil sub in place, it is logical to conclude that the mistaken unions took place while they were being serviced in batches at Herstmonceaux.

Haywood M

I've been trying to PM you Hayward but my messages won't send for some reason? Could you please try messaging me and hopefully I'll then be able to send you the message.

[Haywood_Milton]

Originally Posted by Theurbancommando

I've been trying to PM you Hayward but my messages won't send for some reason? Could you please try messaging me and hopefully I'll then be able to send you the message.

They might have been showing as "unsent" to you, but I received three of them last night! At a quick read it was most interesting and I thank you for the information. Please forgive me if I don't respond quickly, but I will when I can.



Haywood

[Theurbancommando]

Originally Posted by Haywood_Milton

They might have been showing as "unsent" to you, but I received three of them last night! At a quick read it was most interesting and I thank you for the information. Please forgive me if I don't respond quickly, but I will when I can.



Haywood

It just gives an insight into the way things were done in the system back then, that may not be common knowledge.

Originally Posted by rootbeer7

unless you click the box the box to save the sent messages, you wont know they've been sent.

Thanks, I couldn't understand why it didn't show as sent, but I get it now!

[linesiders]

Originally Posted by watchkid

Yes correct. i have the original fully engraved casebook for the watch that sold in 2010. i think that the that particular watch had a remanufactured case back because i am the only one on the planet that has the original matching caseback for that watch. i don't understand how people can play around with such rare watches and try to pull a fast one at an auction with so much money at stake.

I am far from expert on these (though two experts have graciously offered assistance - HM and Jedly - both stand up guys) but my understanding is sometimes the casebacks got mixed up in the service - and some try to take advantage of that.

Work with Haywood and Jedley - both tremendously knowledgeable and generous with sharing their expertise

[rootbeer7]

Originally Posted by Theurbancommando

I've been trying to PM you Hayward but my messages won't send for some reason? Could you please try messaging me and hopefully I'll then be able to send you the message.

unless you click the box the box to save the sent messages, you wont know they've been sent.

[Haywood_Milton]

I can tell you that in August 2009 a gentleman using the name Charles Tearle was trying to source the correct case-back for 3927000.

A gentleman by that name had joined Antiquorum in 2008.

From your private message I believe that your own watch (main case) is from a batch of 57 Submariner 5513s, in fact representing the very first production of the classic mil sub as most know it.

I have two from that batch and will send more info privately.

Haywood Milton, UK

[watchkid]

after doing some research I noticed that this Charles Tearle is a dealer .

[miccro]

Ive delt with Charles, he is a stand up guy, he has left the auction houses