Very Old GMT Master

[denniswilson]

Sad story, but my father is 88 years old and is now very ill. As he promised since I was a little boy, he gave me his Rolex yesterday.

I remember he bought it in NYC sometime around 1960. I also remember he had it serviced sometime in the early 1970's by a friend. The 24 hour red/blue dial was replaced at that time because I remember the original had faded. I also remember that the luminous was repainted kind of sloppy and green. I always remembered, even as a kid looking at my dads Rolex, that the indexes were painted sloppy. You can see the pictures.

Anyways....do you think the sloppy luminous paint job can be repaired to original white? Any suggestions. Anyone know of a good Rolex watchmaker in Atlanta? Any comments, suggestions, discussion at all about this Rolex....please.
Thank you!

[RC2]

Bob Ridley in Texas He will know what to do. Rich

[kyle L]

Hi Dennis, sorry to hear about your father. He gave you a very nice watch though! What makes it sort of uncommon is the fact that it has pointed crown guards. Unfortunately the whole dial was redialed along with the markers, so some of the value is lost. The dial should be gilt, and it looks like it was repainted as a matte one. Gilt means gold text with a kind of shiny finish. Here's mine:



It also looks like the mini GMT hand found on these gilt GMTs was also replaced. It's possible to get the markers relumed, but personally I would try to find an original gilt dial or even a replacement matte dial. Good luck!

[denniswilson]

Originally Posted by kyle L

Hi Dennis, sorry to hear about your father. He gave you a very nice watch though! What makes it sort of uncommon is the fact that it has pointed crown guards. Unfortunately the whole dial was redialed along with the markers, so some of the value is lost. The dial should be gilt, and it looks like it was repainted as a matte one. Gilt means gold text with a kind of shiny finish. Here's mine:



It also looks like the mini GMT hand found on these gilt GMTs was also replaced. It's possible to get the markers relumed, but personally I would try to find an original gilt dial or even a replacement matte dial. Good luck!

Hi Kyle
How can you tell the dial was repainted? I'm almost positive my father hadn't had the dial repainted. I could be wrong but I remember when he had it serviced in the 70's. I was only maybe 12 years old but I remember him telling me that he did have the markers relumed. I know that he had bought it new because I remember as a young child he and a friend had both bought one. My dad was making good money in the 60's as an aerospace engineer. He only owned the finest.....Rolex watch, McIntosh Hi-Fi stereo, Moto Guzzi motorcycle, and a Jaguar car........just reminiscing......

[denniswilson]

Originally Posted by kyle L

Hi Dennis, sorry to hear about your father. He gave you a very nice watch though! What makes it sort of uncommon is the fact that it has pointed crown guards. Unfortunately the whole dial was redialed along with the markers, so some of the value is lost. The dial should be gilt, and it looks like it was repainted as a matte one. Gilt means gold text with a kind of shiny finish. Here's mine:



It also looks like the mini GMT hand found on these gilt GMTs was also replaced. It's possible to get the markers relumed, but personally I would try to find an original gilt dial or even a replacement matte dial. Good luck!

Hi Kyle and thanks,
How can you tell that my dad had the dial repainted....and how do they do that with all the tiny nomenclature? Forgive me but I'm a novice Rolex nubee.

[greekbum]

The dial and hands have been re finished at some point. Depending on the serial number it would either have come with 1 of several dial variations of a gilt dial. A chapter ring occ or scoc dial or a non chapter ring version. If you care to share the 1st 2 numbers of your serial number we can make a suggestion of what would have been the correct dial. If you are out to restore it as close to it was when it was new you will need to find the right dial and hands. If not a service dial will also work.
Here is 1 of mine for my 5000 post on trf

[cruvon]

Originally Posted by greekbum

The dial and hands have been re finished at some point. Depending on the serial number it would either have come with 1 of several dial variations of a gilt dial. A chapter ring occ or scoc dial or a non chapter ring version. If you care to share the 1st 2 numbers of your serial number we can make a suggestion of what would have been the correct dial. If you are out to restore it as close to it was when it was new you will need to find the right dial and hands. If not a service dial will also work.
Here is 1 of mine for my 5000 post on trf

Congrats on your 5000th post:)

[cruvon]

Congrats, surely a watch to treasure from your dad! I would say source a correct dialand hands and you are good to go, not sure what a gilt set of those will set you back by though, the kind guys here will surely advice and help you find one if you are inclined to.

[harry in montreal]

i like your GMT just the way it is. its part of its history that your dad wore it all the time and repaired it as time progressed. you may find that after replacing the dial you miss thegreen one you remember as a child.

[RGonzalez328]

Originally Posted by harry in montreal

i like your GMT just the way it is. its part of its history that your dad wore it all the time and repaired it as time progressed. you may find that after replacing the dial you miss thegreen one you remember as a child.

I agree with him. I wouldnt change a thing. It has a great story and its a beautiful watch the way it is...

[Time Exposure]

Originally Posted by harry in montreal

i like your GMT just the way it is. its part of its history that your dad wore it all the time and repaired it as time progressed. you may find that after replacing the dial you miss thegreen one you remember as a child.

Good point. My grandfather's retirement watch (Wittnauer, not Rolex) would benefit from a new crystal and a bracelet thats not so...vintage? But I can't bear to replace anything knowing its the same crystal my grandfather gazed through as he pulled the bracelet over his wrist. He only wore it for a year before he passed, and I was four years old.

[denniswilson]

I found a picture of a GMT on the web that looks exactly like mine. http://www.europeanwatch.com/15234.htm.

It has the same exact dial with green markers. It says its from the 1950s model 6542, but no crown guard. The big/long indexes are exactly the same as mine. Maybe my dads watch is older?

[denniswilson]

Ok....I looked for the serial number on the case at the 6 o'clock position.
It is 622XXX
According to the serial number sticky, it was made sometime between 1960-1961.

However, the bracelet has a different Rolex logo stamp on it then all the others I see on here.
(see my picture). And it says "made in USA" on the bracelet. Perhaps my dad got a replacement bracelet? Also....it looks like the serial number of the watch was sloppily engraved on the bracelet too. The engraving was so tiny, I had to use a microscope to see it.

[338local]

wow ~ nice watch , the bracelet is big logo

[mdw3]

Originally Posted by 338local

wow ~ nice watch , the bracelet is big logo

NOT big logo bracelet. USA oval-link Jubilee. A very different animal.

Michael

[denniswilson]

Originally Posted by mdw3

NOT big logo bracelet. USA oval-link Jubilee. A very different animal.

Michael

Is the "USA oval-link Jubilee" a good Rolex bracelet? Different animal? I guess my dad replaced it back in the 70s.

[mdw3]

Not valuable. Among the least valuable of the vintage bracelets. These can sell in the $300 range.

Michael

[denniswilson]

Just called Rolex service center in NYC this morning. I inquired about a servicing. They said "wow....1960 Rolex GMT is a rare classic" Starting price is $850.00. ......If they have the parts for a 1960 GMT Master. In addition, they said they may or may NOT accept it for service based on its condition. Otherwise it will be rejected

[Thorsten]

very nice watch with a lot of history leave as it is and buy a replacement oyster bracelet. After a service the watch is perfect for your son or daughter in the future.

[zeuloa]

Originally Posted by denniswilson

Ok....I looked for the serial number on the case at the 6 o'clock position.
It is 622XXX
According to the serial number sticky, it was made sometime between 1960-1961.

However, the bracelet has a different Rolex logo stamp on it then all the others I see on here.
(see my picture). And it says "made in USA" on the bracelet. Perhaps my dad got a replacement bracelet? Also....it looks like the serial number of the watch was sloppily engraved on the bracelet too. The engraving was so tiny, I had to use a microscope to see it.

I'm no expert by any means but I thought I read somewhere that some straps were manufactured in the US at some point.

Regarding the dial, in my opinion someone made a good recommendation of leaving as is for sentimental reasons even though it's not at collectors standards. If you do decide to replace dial, in your shoes I would send to Rolex (or Bob Ridley) for a full service and service dial if you intent to keep the watch and if collector value is of no importance to you. You'll save some money over buying a vintage dial and hands, which in my view takes originality away as we'll as even though vintage, they didn't come with your watch.

[JohnBaker3]

Originally Posted by zeuloa

I'm no expert by any means but I thought I read somewhere that some straps were manufactured in the US at some point.

The C+I bracelets were indeed made in the USA from the mid 50's til the late 70's. It cut out some of the import taxes that Rolex USA had to fork out.

Here is a link to a thread with more details.

http://www.timekeeperforum.com/forum...bracelet.4856/

Great watch; great history; treasure it for what it is: a peice of your family's history.

[denniswilson]

Thanks everybody for responding !!
All of you that mentioned about the dial are absolutly correct and thank you.

I just brought the watch into Charlie Shi (CLS Horsche & Co.) here in Atlanta. He confirmed the whole dial was repainted. He also said the nomenclature was repainted the wrong color. Should be creamy white like the hands. He also said dial probably should be gloss black instead of matte for that year (1960), but there may have been variations. He also said the red 24hr hand was replaced. Also, the bracelet is a Rolex replacement...but still a Rolex.

I clearly remember a friend of my dad did the work in the mid 1970s...prolly gave my dad a break, but the work looks crummy to me. The guy was a buddy from work, so I'm sure he wasn't a professional.....I think I remember my dad saying it was this guys hobby to do watch repair.

Anyways....I'm originally from Long Island NY and I go up ther alot...(I work for an airline).
I'll think about bringing it into Rolex in the city and have them redo the watch with a new service dial.....maybe.....I'll have to see about the cost. Otherwise, the watch works great!!
Thanks so much for all the kind comments and information. !!

[michel33]

Hello Dennis,
Outstanding watch you got here. It appears to have never been polished, it is very rare to see such a fat case with thick crown guards, the watch has the exact shape it had when your dad bought it.
So please, do not let anyone, even Rolex service center, polish it. Just compare with Kyle L's nice Gmt that is not so thick (see the crown guards).

As to get a Rolex service dial, what would be the point? They do not have anymore the gilt/glossy dial you need along with the correct GMT hand which is smaller for a Gmt like yours.

You'd better take your time and do your homework about your dad's Gmt's history, there is a lot to learn about, it will be a great and interesting quest, and when you're done, find a correct dial/hands and have the watch serviced by a vintage specialist such as Bob Ridley.
I do agree with you that the dial is crummy and it is does by no way look like the dial your dad bought brand new around 1962.

[denniswilson]

Originally Posted by michel33

Hello Dennis,
Outstanding watch you got here. It appears to have never been polished, it is very rare to see such a fat case with thick crown guards, the watch has the exact shape it had when your dad bought it.
So please, do not let anyone, even Rolex service center, polish it. Just compare with Kyle L's nice Gmt that is not so thick (see the crown guards).

As to get a Rolex service dial, what would be the point? They do not have anymore the gilt/glossy dial you need along with the correct GMT hand which is smaller for a Gmt like yours.

You'd better take your time and do your homework about your dad's Gmt's history, there is a lot to learn about, it will be a great and interesting quest, and when you're done, find a correct dial/hands and have the watch serviced by a vintage specialist such as Bob Ridley.
I do agree with you that the dial is crummy and it is does by no way look like the dial your dad bought brand new around 1962.

Thanks Michel....you are correct. My dad never had it polished...ever. Just had it serviced that one time by his friend in the 1970s. Wow....I'm thinking.....my dad only serviced it once in over 50 years. He never ever took it off his wrist, and its still keeping great time.....maybe a few seconds fast during the past 3 days!!

[ecsub44]

Please don't be hasty and do something "bad" to this watch. Replacing the dial with a new one would be the worst option in my opinion. Personally, I'd leave it as is. It's got personal history for you. The only other option would be to buy an original gilt dial.

Don't polish it either.

Beautiful watch! Great stories!

[zeuloa]

Originally Posted by denniswilson

Thanks Michel....you are correct. My dad never had it polished...ever. Just had it serviced that one time by his friend in the 1970s. Wow....I'm thinking.....my dad only serviced it once in over 50 years. He never ever took it off his wrist, and its still keeping great time.....maybe a few seconds fast during the past 3 days!!

It sounds like it needs a complete service as well, even if keeping good time. You wouldn't want the gaskets to fail and get water in it, or old parts grinding inside as oils are probably dry and ruining the rest of the movement. I would certainly ask Rolex not to polish, and would go for the new service dial if your planing to keep the watch. The new dial will make it more wearable day to day and you can adding to your father's history by making your own with it. With the poor job they did on the dial at some point it can begin to deteriorate and cause more problems in the future. Plus I'm sure Rolex won't touch it if you don't allow them to replace the dial. Your other option would be an excellent independent such as Bob Ridley from what I've heard.

Show us the outcome once you decide what to do!

[greekbum]

The watch would have came with a dial and handset similar to this when new.


Finding 1 in great condition will run you around $3000-$4000 for the dial and $1000-$1300 for the handset IMHO.

[zeuloa]

Originally Posted by greekbum

The watch would have came with a dial and handset similar to this when new.


Finding 1 in great condition will run you around $3000-$4000 for the dial and $1000-$1300 for the handset IMHO.

That's crazy in my opinion. I can understand leaving a vintage original with the original parts it came with, but purchasing vintage dials and hands which you are not 100% sure if accurate to your watch (as Rolex is so variable) for these amounts of money is beyond me. So pretty much anyone can build their own vintage from different parts from all over the place.

[Puffy]

Leave it!!!!

So so so much PERSONAL history!!!!

[Kiwinz]

Originally Posted by Puffy

Leave it!!!!

So so so much PERSONAL history!!!!

x2