Opening case to determine authenticity

[Cabernet]

Is opening the case a solid way to determine Rolex authenticity? What is the key indicator(s)?

Do mechanically-inclined buyers obtain tools to open cases and make this determination themselves? If not, best way to do this?

Advantages, risks?

Thank-you

[Sartana]

Yes great question which brings to mind my additional question: is it true that there are one to one replica clones that even have 'rolex' inscribed on the movement plates?

[timelord]

Originally Posted by Sartana

my additional question: is it true that there are one to one replica clones that even have 'rolex' inscribed on the movement plates?

Yes'!!!!!! Absolutely

there is a place in Vietnam that makes the cases that are 1:1 in every detail,including the etching. A solid gold one from one of these places can cost more than a complete second hand Solid gold genuine Datejust. Seen some with genuine rolex mvts and also eta mvts.

Making matters worse is that it is not just rolex watches that are being cloned, but there are also eta movement clones that are almost impossible to be distinguished from the real McCoys. With today's technology you can just about clone a Picasso!

[Old Expat Beast]

If you can't recognise a fake without opening the caseback (no shame in that at all) then you should stick to Authorised and/or highly reputable sellers.

[SearChart]

Originally Posted by Old Expat Beast

If you can't recognise a fake without opening the caseback (no shame in that at all) then you should stick to Authorised and/or highly reputable sellers.

When buying a watch I 100% agree with you Adam but there are some seriously scary fakes.

We recently had a client come in with a ceramic sub, it had a broken stem and needed a quick fix. It went through my hands and the hands of several other watchmakers and knowledgable people and we discovered it was a fake when the caseback was opened.

The thing was 98% accurate on the outside but the movement was where it got obvious. Then when we were looking with a loupe and really checking the dial and case you could definitely see it was fake but only if you have a trained eye.

[Rebel]

Originally Posted by Old Expat Beast

If you can't recognise a fake without opening the caseback (no shame in that at all) then you should stick to Authorised and/or highly reputable sellers.

This.

[Vanessa CW21]

I've seen fake cases with genuine Rolex movements and I've seen genuine Rolex cases with fake movements... You need a lot of experience to notice the difference in some cases. Buy from an AD if you want to be 100% sure.

[JohnBaker3]

Originally Posted by Vanessa CW21

I've seen fake cases with genuine Rolex movements and I've seen genuine Rolex cases with fake movements... You need a lot of experience to notice the difference in some cases. Buy from an AD if you want to be 100% sure.

+1

The first Rolex that I bought on-line went straight to local AD; he opened the case and verified that everything was genuine Rolex.

I think it is better to catch any problems early, because later, they may not be "fixable" with the seller...

Also, even honest sellers can flip a vintage watch that looks good on the outside. It's only then that you find fake or incorrect parts in the movement...

Caveat Emptor.

[Cabernet]

It's just fantastic to have access to someone of your background - thank-you!

When you use the term AD, does that refer to a jeweler authorized to sell new Rolex, a Rolex service center, or a certified watchmaker?

How do you view popular sellers on this forum in terms of buying from an AD?

Originally Posted by Vanessa CW21

I've seen fake cases with genuine Rolex movements and I've seen genuine Rolex cases with fake movements... You need a lot of experience to notice the difference in some cases. Buy from an AD if you want to be 100% sure.

[firefisher]

Originally Posted by Vanessa CW21

I've seen fake cases with genuine Rolex movements and I've seen genuine Rolex cases with fake movements... You need a lot of experience to notice the difference in some cases. Buy from an AD if you want to be 100% sure.

Wow very impressive video. I wish I could do that.

[Cabernet]

Given that, what is it that is a solid determination of authenticity? Is there anything?

Or, do we rely on informed opinions of experts who weigh all the "evidence" ?

[timelord]

Originally Posted by Cabernet

Given that, what is it that is a solid determination of authenticity? Is there anything?

Or, do we rely on informed opinions of experts who weigh all the "evidence" ?

great question!!!! And I have also been looking for an answer to this exact question for years.

what is an expert?

a few years ago, I purchased a Freccione explorer dial with mvt and papers but no case. I tried to find a case for it - any case would have done for me as long as I had the complete watch. I no longer cared for the papers as I did not need to wear them as it was my dream watch. Just loved the Steve McQueen feeling

Years of looking - no luck!!! RSC would not sell me one, nor would they service a watch that was incomplete. I was tempted to sell it on ebay to the highest bidder until a member from another forum came to my rescue and offered to sell me one!!! He admitted it was not an authentic case but was 1-1 in every detail. He was from Vietnam and even offered to have the serial number that I wanted etched for a price. I felt like a resurrected Lazzarus with a heart, liver and lung transplant and purchased it without delay.

Two years later it needed a service and sent it into my watchmaker who informed me that it needed a new automatic reverser wheels. I was &$)@/:

My work led to reside in Melbourne Australia for a year. I happen to pass Collins street and found that rolex service center was there so the following week I took it in to get a quote. surprise surprise, they quoted me over $Aus1000 and I did I not hesitate to have it done.

You ask about experts?????so what do you define as an expert??? I later discover that rolex service centers are not in the business of authenticing. I also read that someone had one of their genuine products declined as they did not recognise the genuine vintage bracelet that was made in Mexico to be theirs. In spite of all this I had a watch that I was happy with and my son madly wanted it for his 21st birthday present instead of anything else. I am glad he appreciates it.

My question still remains as it was.

[J!m]

This is why original boxes and papers add so much value to a potential purhase. Assuming all the numbers and refrences match, it is another piece of the puzzle to assure you have a genuine watch.

But, if you can't tell for sure, either be happy with what you (think) you have, or get it checked by an expert. Most ADs (Authorized Dealers) will authenticate a watch, and sometimes set a value for insurance purposes. I use a custom jeweler for my Wife's jewelry and every time we visit they check all the stones and photograph the pieces and keep it on file forever. Not all ADs/jewelers do that sort of thing, but if you are not sure, always check!

[padi56]

Originally Posted by J!m

This is why original boxes and papers add so much value to a potential purhase. Assuming all the numbers and refrences match, it is another piece of the puzzle to assure you have a genuine watch.

But, if you can't tell for sure, either be happy with what you (think) you have, or get it checked by an expert. Most ADs (Authorized Dealers) will authenticate a watch, and sometimes set a value for insurance purposes. I use a custom jeweler for my Wife's jewelry and every time we visit they check all the stones and photograph the pieces and keep it on file forever. Not all ADs/jewelers do that sort of thing, but if you are not sure, always check!

Afraid boxes bits of paper or plastic cards are the easiest fake with today's technology so never rely on these alone for authenticity if not bought from a 100% reliable source.

[Velox]

Originally Posted by J!m

This is why original boxes and papers add so much value to a potential purhase. Assuming all the numbers and refrences match, it is another piece of the puzzle to assure you have a genuine watch.

But the fakes nowadays come with all "original" papers and box for few bucks exra.
My guess is if you can't tell by inspecting the watch that it's fake you also can't tell the papers and box are fake.

Edit: replied before reading the whole thread, Padi56 already said it

[padi56]

Originally Posted by J!m

This is why original boxes and papers add so much value to a potential purhase. Assuming all the numbers and refrences match, it is another piece of the puzzle to assure you have a genuine watch.

But, if you can't tell for sure, either be happy with what you (think) you have, or get it checked by an expert. Most ADs (Authorized Dealers) will authenticate a watch, and sometimes set a value for insurance purposes. I use a custom jeweler for my Wife's jewelry and every time we visit they check all the stones and photograph the pieces and keep it on file forever. Not all ADs/jewelers do that sort of thing, but if you are not sure, always check!

In the real world boxes and bits of paper/plastic cards are far easier to fake than the actually watch.So never rely on these items to prove authenticity of any watch unless bought from a 100% reliable source.

[Cabernet]

Timelord, thanks for validating the complexity of the issue. I'm new to this and posed the question in an honest quest for useful information. In spite of some flippant comments, I think we are getting there, but have not fully answered the question yet.

I appreciate the integrity of the trusted sellers here on the forum very much. But, without a solid answer, how does anyone authoritatively determine authenticity (trusted sellers included)?

With some homework, I think most could recognize a poor quality fake. What about a great fake with a custom serial number to match paperwork that was separated from the real watch?

If one wanted to command big money for a fake, that's a good way to do it!

[timelord]

Originally Posted by Cabernet

Timelord, thanks for validating the complexity of the issue. I'm new to this and posed the question in an honest quest for useful information. In spite of some flippant comments, I think we are getting there, but have not fully answered the question yet.

I appreciate the integrity of the trusted sellers here on the forum very much. But, without a solid answer, how does anyone authoritatively determine authenticity (trusted sellers included)?

With some homework, I think most could recognize a poor quality fake. What about a great fake with a custom serial number to match paperwork that was separated from the real watch?

If one wanted to command big money for a fake, that's a good way to do it!

this sort of hobby is for those that are either crazy like me that has an illness for this sort of madness, for which I am glad that there is no cure for,

Or;

For those that have a lot of money at their disposal, so that they can always buy new from an authorised dealer and not to have any doubts or sleepless nights about whether their toy is authentic or not.

Hence, as am of the former, I asked myself that if I was going to buy anything outside that from an authorised dealer (I.e buying new) which is not the situation for me, for both finances and also that none of what is new turns me on,

or

Simply, accept that this is not an exact science and you appreciate it on the balance of probabilities that what you have is 100% genuine ( if not then this is certainly not the hobby for you, as it will give you more grief than pleasure, as you will always be a doubting Thomas that someone has either sold you a fake or a dubious item).

I tried to ask on the "watch out" section of this forum for some advice a few weeks ago on a gold aftermarket case that was advertised on ebay as to what signs to watch out for. With the exception of a couple of posts, I got nothing but abuse and answers that not even an intellectually disabled chicken could have done worse. Certainly - not the place to get your answer with such small minds!!! As for going into a a rolex dealer that sells rolex! most of the sales people are leggy blonde bimbos that do not know their a*** form their m***** (without being disrespectful to anyone).

Most of the dealers I have dealt here and on the internet do the right thing and if you get done by a reputable dealer, trust me that it is not intentional as they are also victims of this as much as they are in the trade as there is no absolute answer when it comes to production items. If it were diamonds and gold, it would be easier as there are ways to authenticate them, but it is up to you as to how you go about what you are buying.

[Baco Noir]

Another option, albeit slower, is to send it to RSC for a Service quote. They will open and inspect to give you a price for service. If anything is fake, they will not touch it and may even confiscate it.


Sent from my iPad (so I blame autocorrect for the spellin' errs)

[Cabernet]

In Timelord's case, the RSC quoted him a service with his Vietnam fake case...

[stray_cat]

Originally Posted by Cabernet

In Timelord's case, the RSC quoted him a service with his Vietnam fake case...

Scary, I can see that happening. Probably can't tell yet as they see the movement is real, so they accept it . They may discover later on once they dig in that it's a replacement case. Also have seen 3135 movement copies, almost everything except the finishing and the microstella regulator system.

Best is to purchase from a legitimate dealer/source.

[Cabernet]

Well said

[Cabernet]

How easily could a well meaning dealer get fooled?

[stray_cat]

A well meaning dealer that I bought a few pieces from and have great rapport with showed me the watch to school me. They did not think it necessary to open the watch until later and had to take the loss. They were a coin shop, not a Rolex specialist/AD.

[Cabernet]

So, back to the original question. Open the case?

I see more and more For Sale listings with the back off of the case...

Originally Posted by Cabernet

Is opening the case a solid way to determine Rolex authenticity? What is the key indicator(s)?

Do mechanically-inclined buyers obtain tools to open cases and make this determination themselves? If not, best way to do this?

Advantages, risks?

Thank-you

[jvmartin]

Always Always Always open the case back to check out the movement or have it opened by the dealer. Fake ETA movements exist that fit Rolex cases and you cannot always be sure that your seller has done this prior. Know what your movement should look like (research online), check proper inscriptions, and look for the movement serial number.

You will also want to check for excessive rust or damage to the case and movement. Most casebacks will also have markings which indicate service history as well. The case back wrench can be bought for less than $50 and pays for itself in peace of mind even if only used a few times.

[Cabernet]

Makes perfect sense to me. Does this also require a vice? Any special precautions?

Originally Posted by jvmartin

Always Always Always open the case back to check out the movement or have it opened by the dealer. Fake ETA movements exist that fit Rolex cases and you cannot always be sure that your seller has done this prior. Know what your movement should look like (research online), check proper inscriptions, and look for the movement serial number.

You will also want to check for excessive rust or damage to the case and movement. Most casebacks will also have markings which indicate service history as well. The case back wrench can be bought for less than $50 and pays for itself in peace of mind even if only used a few times.

[T. Ferguson]

Originally Posted by jvmartin

Always Always Always open the case back to check out the movement or have it opened by the dealer. Fake ETA movements exist that fit Rolex cases and you cannot always be sure that your seller has done this prior.

Why not just fake the Rolex movement?

[breitlings]

timelord you asked about a fake case not aftermarket and they try not to discuss them.

for me it is slightly easier to authenticate via movement but they do try to make the fake movements look like rolex, but i havent seen a 1:1 replica. another issue is some not original parts in a real case and movement.

[breitlings]

op if u have any doubts the watxh out section is an excellent place to vet.