Is 'Vintage or Aged' Luminova an Oxymoron?

[ref1655]

when it comes to vintage era Rolexes, I can understand the reasons for preserving original tritium hands/dials as well as those with radium (if possible).

on the other hand, since luminova is the current 'lume' being incorporated into modern Rolexes & easily replaceable, it would seem that preserving the original luminova purely for the sake of antiquity is kind of pointless & to date, I have never heard the words 'aged or patina' being used in reference to luminova hands/dials. being a safe & non-toxic illuminator, the chances are luminova is going to be around for a very long time both in terms of practical application & for repair/replacement situations.

curious...is there really such a thing as 'vintage/aged' luminova or is it strictly an emerging newbie concern/preoccupation?

[speedolex]

Luminova first appeared in Rolex watches around 1998, so none of them are deemed "vintage" right now, perhaps that's why it's not discussed much.

As far as the physical characteristics of Luminova, I believe it will patina and gracefully age but I can't confirm; my 16610 is from 2002 and is still bright white, I wear it almost every day for 14+ years. I'm one of those non-patina guys, I like my Rolexes looking as fresh and new as possible. While I can appreciate some nice tan patina on certain 1960's and 1970's watches in photos, in everyday life I don't want to see my watch aging in that manner, I want to preserve the original look as best I can.

[ref1655]

Originally Posted by speedolex

While I can appreciate some nice tan patina on certain 1960's and 1970's watches in photos, in everyday life I don't want to see my watch aging in that manner, I want to preserve the original look as best I can.

which was my point...upgrading and/or replacing luminova hands/dials on modern Rolexes during periodic RSC servicing will probably not be such an issue as it is with older models.

[speedolex]

Originally Posted by ref1655

which was my point...upgrading and/or replacing luminova hands/dials on modern Rolexes during periodic RSC servicing will probably not be such an issue as it is with older models.

You're probably right. I can't recall seeing a dial with definitively tan Luminova markers, not even sure if it would look right against the white gold surrounds.

Me personally, I can't wait for this patina fad to die off so its easier to fine pristine examples of 60's and 70's Sport model classics. I get the whole millennial hipster trend towards authenticity and realism, but there's nothing inauthentic about a 5513 with a factory-fresh dial and hands. I just don't see any around to purchase.

[ref1655]

Originally Posted by speedolex

Me personally, I can't wait for this patina fad to die off so its easier to fine pristine examples of 60's and 70's Sport model classics.

agreeing with you there...while my 1655 no longer glows in the dark, the tritium markers still haven't yellowed. if anything, they're sort of cream colored at best. personally speaking, I find extreme yellowed-out patina somewhat unattractive & reminiscent of bad teeth. the same can be said of older watches with crumbling & corroding radium hands/dials.

it's similar to vintage guitars. while yellowing nitrocellulose lacquer over white bindings is characteristic of many older instruments, the 'as new' white appearance still looks better IMO.

[speedolex]

Originally Posted by ref1655

Personally speaking, I find extreme yellowed-out patina somewhat unattractive & reminiscent of bad teeth. the same can be said of older watches with crumbling & corroding radium hands/dials.

it's similar to vintage guitars. while yellowing nitrocellulose lacquer over white bindings is characteristic of many older instruments, the 'as new' white appearance still looks better IMO.

God bless you, ref1655. I was beginning to think I was a lone voice in the wilderness on this one. While I completely understand the beaten and distressed automotive Rat Rod niche, I'll take a minty-mint looking '67 Stingray every time.

[swish77]

Originally Posted by speedolex

You're probably right. I can't recall seeing a dial with definitively tan Luminova markers, not even sure if it would look right against the white gold surrounds.

Me personally, I can't wait for this patina fad to die off so its easier to fine pristine examples of 60's and 70's Sport model classics. I get the whole millennial hipster trend towards authenticity and realism, but there's nothing inauthentic about a 5513 with a factory-fresh dial and hands. I just don't see any around to purchase.

So it's easier to find pristine example of '60s and '70s sport model classics?? That will not ever happen. Pristine examples are getting harder and harder to find, fad or no fad.

The reason you don't see any to purchase is because they don't really exist any more at any price. And if you do happen to hit the vintage Rolex lottery and stumble upon a pristine or NOS example of, say, a mid-60s Submariner, that will most likely mean it has been in a safe or drawer most of its life, and that usually equals ... you guessed it, yellow patina on the tritium.

[speedolex]

Originally Posted by swish77

So it's easier to find pristine example of '60s and '70s sport model classics?? That will not ever happen. Pristine examples are getting harder and harder to find, fad or no fad.

The reason you don't see any to purchase is because they don't really exist any more at any price. And if you do happen to hit the vintage Rolex lottery and stumble upon a pristine or NOS example of, say, a mid-60s Submariner, that will most likely mean it has been in a safe or drawer most of its life, and that usually equals ... you guessed it, yellow patina on the tritium.

Sorry, let me clarify:

A part of me is looking forward to the end of the Patina Era so that examples I wouldn't buy now (faded bezels, pink GMT's, chipping dials, burned out lume hands) get completely reconditioned by their owners and hit the open market in "as new" condition.

My issue with the market in 2016 is that sellers are letting their Rolexes erode because patina is cool and it's on-trend, so it's almost impossible to find any pristine (refurbished) examples out there. When all these watches turn 60, 70 years old they'll all get refurbished and then there will be plenty of inventory.

[Tools]

Originally Posted by ref1655

which was my point...upgrading and/or replacing luminova hands/dials on modern Rolexes during periodic RSC servicing will probably not be such an issue as it is with older models.

It's originality that makes those dials and hands valuable, not the lume they have.

It is likely that in the future originality will still be the bigger factor. The problem will be in determining the originality of a dial that may look the same.

[speedolex]

Originally Posted by Tools

It's originality that makes those dials and hands valuable, not the lume they have.

It is likely that in the future originality will still be the bigger factor. The problem will be in determining the originality of a dial that may look the same.

It depends what the future brings.

Taking Luminova out of the discussion for a moment, if we had an X/Y graph showing vintage Rolex 4-digit patina condition on one axis and the vintage buyer population on the other axis it would likely show that we are sitting at the apex of both. Most examples from the 60s and 70s are peaking in patina here 50 and 40 years out but others are clearly looking quite poor. Look at any vintage site with a lot of inventory and it's polarizing. As time goes by the condition of these dials will worsen and we can safely assume the amount of trendy vintage watch buyers will weaken, it's always been cyclical and the hipster movement is quite ripe right now.

One can see a future where there are fewer vintage buyers and fewer classics in presentable condition where two things will happen: The really good patina examples will see stabilized values (fewer watches but fewer buyers) and the ones that are too far gone will get refurbished to as-new condition (how else will sellers be able to make the same inventory retain its value for another 50+ years?). Originality eventually vanishes because the consumables on these watches like dials, hands, and bezels weren't made to last forever and as-new may again be back in vogue.

[ref1655]

Originally Posted by speedolex

Originality eventually vanishes because the consumables on these watches like dials, hands, and bezels weren't made to last forever and as-new may again be back in vogue.

the same can be said of vintage automobiles. while 100% originality is desirable in many instances, some components just have to be replaced either due to wear & tear, decomposition or optimum cosmetic presentation.

the key is to ensure quality/detail-oriented restoration as anything less often appears contrived or fake (i.e. modern polyurethane paint on vintage cars that originally came with enamel or nitrocellulose lacquer).

it's unfortunate that factory RSCs often go overboard in R&Ring vintage timepieces. on the other hand, most independent RSCs do not have an adequate inventory of older out-of-production components. in an ideal world, fading tritium hands/dials would be replaced as needed with period specific/identical factory replacements.

while some folks adore decomposing tritium & its visual aftereffects, I'd just as soon have a watch that still glows in the dark but hasn't been compromised in terms of its originality. replacement with factory original parts negates that particular concern as keeping it 100% original 'just for the sake of being original' often has its own shortcomings...mainly, the watch can take on an even crappier look over time.

while many have mentioned that cars cannot be compared with watches, a well-restored 1957 Speedster (with factory original parts replacement & period-specific re-paint) will always look better than some 100% unrestored (yet original) rust bucket taking up space in someone's garage. the same can be said of antique furniture...75% of which is usually restored or refinished.

[ref1655]

Originally Posted by Tools

It is likely that in the future originality will still be the bigger factor. The problem will be in determining the originality of a dial that may look the same.

simple solution...bring back tritium for the purpose of restoration purposes only. if the dials/hands are functionally & aesthetically period-correct, no one (other than the most anal retentive) is going to question the refurbishing of a timepiece, especially if it meets the standards of its day.

the re-touching up of existing hands/dials is totally unacceptable (in my book) & gives rise to this neurotic concern over authenticity/originality. limitations on constructive restorations is probably why so many vintage watch enthusiasts 'groove on' crappy-looking, yellowed-out patinas.

some of those pics displayed in the 'yellowed patina' thread are absolutely abhorrent. a nice 'egg-shell' patina is one thing...when they start to resemble a urine specimen is another.

[speedolex]

Originally Posted by ref1655

some of those pics displayed in the 'yellowed patina' thread are absolutely abhorrent. a nice 'egg-shell' patina is one thing...when they start to resemble a urine specimen is another.

Agreed, and when the yellow lume goes up against a GMT bezel that's faded to pink suddenly your wrist looks like its sporting a Rainbow Brite bracelet.

This is part of the reason why I find this topic so fascinating. You've got some vintage watches that are right on the tipping point of "cool" to "unattractive", just a few days in the sun can turn $40,000 into $4,000. He who sets himself up as the Michael Young of dial restoration stands to make a fortune.

[Vincent65]

Originally Posted by ref1655

simple solution...bring back tritium for the purpose of restoration purposes only. if the dials/hands are functionally & aesthetically period-correct, no one (other than the most anal retentive) is going to question the refurbishing of a timepiece, especially if it meets the standards of its day.

the re-touching up of existing hands/dials is totally unacceptable (in my book) & gives rise to this neurotic concern over authenticity/originality. limitations on constructive restorations is probably why so many vintage watch enthusiasts 'groove on' crappy-looking, yellowed-out patinas.

some of those pics displayed in the 'yellowed patina' thread are absolutely abhorrent. a nice 'egg-shell' patina is one thing...when they start to resemble a urine specimen is another.

And being on a watch forum - at all - isn't "neurotic"!?

I personally love the 'urine specimen' patina, even if you do state as fact that they are "absolutely abhorrent" - the more dehydrated the sample, the better!

[dysondiver]

need a new old stock , out of the safe picture to see how the dark has worked on lumnova , or just hang on for twenty years or so.
trintium is starting to look great in contrast to the wg surrounds , im thinking it could be the new '' matte'' just wait and see.

[Kingface66]

What is with you and this obsession of blaming the "hipster movement"? You really think the scores of vintage enthusiasts on this forum, who've been collecting for years, are all hipsters? Do you even know what a hipster is? I have vintage Rolexes. I have tattoos. I play music for a living. I'm 50 years-old. Am I a hipster? I guess I am as far as you're concerned.
If the vintage world, and we "hipsters" are so distasteful to you, why do you lurk here?

[speedolex]

Originally Posted by Kingface66

What is with you and this obsession of blaming the "hipster movement"? You really think the scores of vintage enthusiasts on this forum, who've been collecting for years, are all hipsters? Do you even know what a hipster is? I have vintage Rolexes. I have tattoos. I play music for a living. I'm 50 years-old. Am I a hipster? I guess I am as far as you're concerned.
If the vintage world, and we "hipsters" are so distasteful to you, why do you lurk here?

There are long-term older core collectors and there are younger fly-by-night trend collectors. You and I are the former, I'm referring to the current explosion of vintage watches that is being caused by the latter. You are not a hipster. I don't think you understand the term.

I don't lurk here, I post here and I post here because I own 7 Rolexes, 4 of which are vintage. Not everyone needs a PHD in dial forensics to participate here. I get PM's from posters you respect on a weekly basis saying they agree with what I say and encouraging me to speak my mind despite the bullying. So I intend to. There is an ignore feature that works quite well towards posters you don't wish to engage with, use it.

[themaninblack]

I am Hipster!

[AS1]

I bought vintage watches because I thought it was hip... was I wrong? Sounds like maybe I should sell them all.

[speedolex]

Originally Posted by AS1

I bought vintage watches because I thought it was hip... was I wrong? Sounds like maybe I should sell them all.

Collecting vintage watches is hip but it doesn't make you a hipster. But if you love trees, drive a Prius, and hug trees perhaps you're borderline :) I know at least one other Mets fan who is a hipster. He has a large scraggly beard.

Eventually what you call "patina" turns to dust. I collect like-new vintage watches so I have a bit of a cushion on father time, but most in this forum have examples that are well on their way to the hereafter.

I am curious, it was discussed last month (and Hodinkee put up an article too) but it was never resolved, what exactly is the exit strategy on a vintage watch? When patina gets ratty and unattractive, what then? Sell before it's too late? Spray some sort of preservative on the dials? Do collectors with very valuable vintage examples over 40 years old have a set of NOS backup dials to protect their investments? I'm in the same boat. I may have a decade or two cushion, but eventually my 1603, 1601, 6605, and 1016 are going to face similar challenges.

[AS1]

Originally Posted by speedolex

I am curious, it was discussed last month (and Hodinkee put up an article too) but it was never resolved, what exactly is the exit strategy on a vintage watch? When patina gets ratty and unattractive, what then? Sell before it's too late? Spray some sort of preservative on the dials? Do collectors with very valuable vintage examples over 40 years old have a set of NOS backup dials to protect their investments? I'm in the same boat. I may have a decade or two cushion, but eventually my 1603, 1601, 6605, and 1016 are going to face similar challenges.

That Hodinkee article sort of enraged me, to be honest. It was half an article. As if the author had a point in mind and got bored half way through, or had a deadline to meet, and literally couldn't be bothered to complete it. It sort of felt to me like they wanted to throw something out there on the chance that in 30 years some time someone could say "wow look how insightful Hodinkee were back in 2016!"

The reality is no one knows how these watches are going to age in our lifetimes, right? There are Rolexes 60+ years old with immaculate dials.

[speedolex]

Originally Posted by AS1

That Hodinkee article sort of enraged me, to be honest. It was half an article. As if the author had a point in mind and got bored half way through, or had a deadline to meet, and literally couldn't be bothered to complete it. It sort of felt to me like they wanted to throw something out there on the chance that in 30 years some time someone could say "wow look how insightful Hodinkee were back in 2016!"

The reality is no one knows how these watches are going to age in our lifetimes, right? There are Rolexes 60+ years old with immaculate dials.

I agree! I thought he was going to interview some of their top insiders/collectors and get some real answers. Now that I think of it, the lack of real answers from top insiders/collectors sort of speaks volumes, may confirm our suspicions. If there were a simple answer surely they'd have answered it.

If there is no answer, this is going to get interesting, there is just so long a dealer can call something "tropical" or whatever and convince a buyer that it's more desirable than a reconditioned version.

[ref1655]

Originally Posted by speedolex

...what exactly is the exit strategy on a vintage watch?

probably akin to vintage wine...drink & enjoy it (at peak maturity) and/or unload it at a profit before it completely deteriorates.

[speedolex]

Originally Posted by ref1655

probably akin to vintage wine...drink & enjoy it (at peak maturity) and/or unload it at a profit before it completely deteriorates.

Good analogy.

Then of course is the uphill battle of today's young adult (I have one) not wearing a watch and not caring about his fathers pricey Rolex collection one iota. He just graduated high school, he just had his 18th birthday last week, both occasions I basically said "I want to give you one of my $7,000 watches because I'm so proud of you" and he bluntly said "no thanks dad, I love you but I don't wear watches". He wore my father's 1952 Wittnauer to his prom only out of respect for his late grandfather, might be the last time I ever see something on his wrist.

[ref1655]

Originally Posted by speedolex

Then of course is the uphill battle of today's young adult (I have one) not wearing a watch and not caring about his fathers pricey Rolex collection one iota....and he bluntly said "no thanks dad, I love you but I don't wear watches".

based on my observations...the younger Millennials (those born during the late 1990s) are a far cry from their earlier brethren (those born around the mid 1980s) & who are now somewhere between 28-33 years of age.

the earlier Millennials are seemingly more 'yuppiefied'....perhaps stemming from the mind-numbing influences of an upwardly-mobile upbringing & the oftentimes neurotic journey of their babyboomer parent's quest for social & material recognition. why these kids didn't rebel (like most generations), I have no answer.

the younger Millennials could seemingly care less about antiquities & perceived status symbols...to them, everything is just 'disposable stuff'.

[Kingface66]

Oy vey

[tudorluv]

it's not a whole lot different than buying new jeans that already come faded or with holes in 'em

you do however get a new watch with a warranty and can avoid some of the pitfalls of vintage watch collecting

I admire both the vintage watches and the heritage / retro offerings

[jdmi32]

Some dude, probably a hipster, once wrote, "Death is the mother of beauty". Guy likely wrote it while staring at his radium or tritium dialed watch.

[J!m]

Just my two cents but it seems that my 9411 plots are a bit whiter than when I got it. It seems that wearing the watch and exposing the lume to the sun sort of bleaches them out.

Maybe I need to lay off the model glue too but it seems that way.

Pic from yesterday:

I posted a pic yesterday but it's not in my photo list...

Anyway, carry on.

[J!m]

Hard to type with a tube of model glue in your hand.

But, relevant to the other part of the discussion I like old stuff to be original, but in mint condition. Like it has survived and not been abused. That is difficult (and expensive in our case) but I'm also quite happy with items that have obviously lived a life.

So in summary I can't make up my mind.

PS really nasty, dark "patina" I don't find attractive at all.