5512 Serpico Y Laino Dial

[eliu908]

It looks like it has been refinished and relumed. I bought it as the seller told me it was a gen Serpico Y Laino Dial. I love the chocolate face. The hands are not original.

Any one want to comment on authenticity and possible pricing? I haven't been able to find much info on this dial, just the background story on the actual jewerly shop. I've even tried searching for a fake version of this dial to compare and I came across with 0 results. Maybe someone a little more experience would be able to know.

Thanks!

[springer]

Besides being refinished, the dial appears to have had repairs done to the "feet."

[eliu908]

Originally Posted by springer

Besides being refinished, the dial appears to have had repairs done to the "feet."

In regards to the feet, I think it was to fit a tudor movement.

[Paul]

To my eye, I'm seeing the dial the OP has posted as a fun item only , a very loose interpretation of a Rolex 5512 dial with absolutely minimal value. There's a whole hierarchy when it comes to the quality of refinished dials and while some are truly dreadful, others are well executed and may have a place I guess when an original dial is near on impossible to source. I'm thinking the hard core fakers have moved way beyond the quality that I'm seeing on that dial though.

Text alignment is off
Fonts are way off original
Text sizing is odd
The gilt effect is odd
The coronet is odd
Lume plots have a paint by numbers look to them
And yes ... the hands are after-market cheapies

And I say don't be fooled by the Singer imprint on the back of all the refinished dials we are now seeing. Very simple for a faker to reproduce that. And I see the addition of the Serpico Y Laino text and the under-line as nothing more than sad attempts to make a totally fake dial a little more marketable.

And while the feet we see may be positioned for a Tudor movement, I'm not seeing any sign where original feet have been removed.

There are several eBay sellers now who are rolling out reasonably accurate refinished dials ... some are even "painted with Swiss ink" Priced at $500 they just sit there, priced with a low reserve they seem to change hands at about $100. I see a place for quality refinished dials .... I'm not lovin' this one though

[eliu908]

Originally Posted by Paul

To my eye, I'm seeing the dial the OP has posted as a fun item only , a very loose interpretation of a Rolex 5512 dial with absolutely minimal value. There's a whole hierarchy when it comes to the quality of refinished dials and while some are truly dreadful, others are well executed and may have a place I guess when an original dial is near on impossible to source. I'm thinking the hard core fakers have moved way beyond the quality that I'm seeing on that dial though.

Text alignment is off
Fonts are way off original
Text sizing is odd
The gilt effect is odd
The coronet is odd
Lume plots have a paint by numbers look to them
And yes ... the hands are after-market cheapies

And I say don't be fooled by the Singer imprint on the back of all the refinished dials we are now seeing. Very simple for a faker to reproduce that. And I see the addition of the Serpico Y Laino text and the under-line as nothing more than sad attempts to make a totally fake dial a little more marketable.

And while the feet we see may be positioned for a Tudor movement, I'm not seeing any sign where original feet have been removed.

There are several eBay sellers now who are rolling out reasonably accurate refinished dials ... some are even "painted with Swiss ink" Priced at $500 they just sit there, priced with a low reserve they seem to change hands at about $100. I see a place for quality refinished dials .... I'm not lovin' this one though

http://www.4watch.ch/product-page/f5...d-f0535ea76b2d
http://www.vetroplastica.it/orologio...icale-140.html

Closest I can find. Notice both from 1959. Was singer making dials back then?

Currently there are no submariner "Serpico Y Laino" dials on ebay. I also checked completed listings and there weren't any to reference. If you see any sitting there for $500, let me know.

[Paul]

Originally Posted by eliu908

http://www.4watch.ch/product-page/f5...d-f0535ea76b2d
http://www.vetroplastica.it/orologio...icale-140.html

Closest I can find. Notice both from 1959. Was singer making dials back then?

Currently there are no submariner "Serpico Y Laino" dials on ebay. I also checked completed listings and there weren't any to reference. If you see any sitting there for $500, let me know.

Hi again eliu.

I was referring in more general terms to the refinished dials we see coming to market nowadays. These are the likes of Tonny and Dung-chrono on eBay who roll out a steady stream of dials, (usually) declared as refinished. Some are seriously flawed, others are fairly accurate renditions of what we look for in original dials, but they are certainly getting better all the time.

Disregarding the elements of the refinish on your dial, the back of your dial has me scratching my head a bit. The following notes and pic may help explain my concerns and may help you determine exactly what you have.

The LHS dials marked 'A' are each early examples of Rolex Submariner meters first dials. See the locating pins on the back of the dial, located close to the outer edge. The pins line up approximately with the 30 and 57 minute markers on the front face of the dial.

The RHS dials marked 'B' are each Tudor Submariner 7928 items so may reflect the same pin locations as you see on your dial if it was indeed set up for a Tudor movement. The locating pins are further in from the outer edge, lining up approximately with the 25 and 55 minute markers on the front face.

The dial marked 'C' is what I might consider a fairly typical example of a dial that's had its feet removed. I guess some watchmakers may do a tidier job but altered dials often have distinct markings where the original pins have been removed.

On your dial, I certainly see some scratching but I'd be keen to determine that pins have been removed from close to the outer edge, where I'd expect an original 5512 dial to have once had pins. Perhaps it's simply that the watchmaker has buzzed down quite deeply when removing the pins but it's worth checking. No one wants items in their collection that need explaining but if that grinding on the back of your dial aligns with 30 and 57 minute markers, that might be a positive sign I guess. Serpico Y Laino items sometimes come with a hefty price tag and I assume that might extend to refinished dials, but I'm thinking that would only apply if the origins of the dial can be clearly established.

I still maintain that any fully refinished dial has modest value and if it's been doctored to fit an entirely different calibre movement, I might expect that value to drop even further. Just my thoughts - other folks may see something I don't see.

[eliu908]

Thank you for that explanation; the picture certainly helped. It is what I needed to hear. The dial is so unique and I had to have it. Every other 5512/5513 I see are the gilt black dials and I think this with a blue insert is really cool. Just wanted to be sure this can be a authentic dial and not one made in a Chinese factory. I was able to find this last night: http://www.yukiwatch.com/catalog/ite...72/9835062.htm , it is refinished and looks nothing like my posted dial. IMO I would never buy that dial because something about it is very off.

I have seen refinished Cartier or Tiffany dials which are "refinished". But none of them look anything like this guy so I had to come here and ask the experts!

-edit I contacted the watchmaker and it is mounted on a 2451 running smoothly. Same movement used in the 50s for Tudor watches thus the mounting of feet. If you think this is worth maybe $500 on the dial, I think I was able to get it for a solid/fair price overall.

[brockburst]

.

[Kingface66]

Not sure how a $500 valuation was determined. Being that it's a refinished and relumed dial, (not even getting into what is going on with the feet on the back) it seems like it wouldn't be worth much at all. And to claim, as the seller assured you, that it's a genuine Serpico Y Laino dial can't be proven. Does he have proof? As Paul stated earlier, it seems a "fun item" at best.

[eliu908]

Originally Posted by Kingface66

Not sure how a $500 valuation was determined. Being that it's a refinished and relumed dial, (not even getting into what is going on with the feet on the back) it seems like it wouldn't be worth much at all. And to claim, as the seller assured you, that it's a genuine Serpico Y Laino dial can't be proven. Does he have proof? As Paul stated earlier, it seems a "fun item" at best.

No proof. I consider it a fun item as well. It's not like I paid 2-3k for the dial. I just want to make sure its a good refinish and it doesn't look like a 10 year old chinese kid in a factory painted it. The lume is probably the worst part about the dial, but the relume itself is very old. It glows bright for maybe 10 minutes after you charge it and then only becomes visable under almost pitch dark. If this was a recent relume, it would have lasted way longer.

I just want to reassure myself I didn't buy a $100 dial for around $500 ya dig? Some of those 5512/5513 gilt dials look terrible after a refinish. I don't see many serpico y laino dials floating around. I'm not sure y someone would fake a dial that was discountinued after 1966.

[eliu908]

Here is the watch in the current housing. Way sexier than any generic 5512/5513 gilt dial.

[Paul]

... but sorry, it's still a bit shiny and new for me. A smart look overall though and the aged insert and old leather certainly help things along a bit.

Here's an example of what I might call a new generation refinished 'vintage' Rolex dial. This dial and odd-ball hands sold on eBay recently at $ 95. Just one bidder though which perhaps highlights how the vintage Rolex community still look down their noses at replica items.

An expert might pick up a dozen faults with this eBay dial by comparison to a genuine item but I think the fakers have come a long way. That includes the efforts now being made to inject some ageing / patina into their work. A refinished vintage dial that looks like it might be 60 years old .... what a concept !


Apologies too for any members offended by discussion of fake items. It's a bit like a rash on your bum I sometimes think .... we can choose not to talk about it .... but it's not gonna go away

[eliu908]

Solid discussion. I like your replies, they are very detailed and helpful.

Meh fake vs real is a stupid convo. Why do people rag on others for being "too poor" to afford the real thing. Just mind your own business, your watch is yours to enjoy. Now if you are trying to sell a "fake" watch as a real watch then shame on you for being a dick.

The watches I posted that look similar to mine sold for 200k USD at Sotherbys. That is just stupid money which I do not have. Getting something similar with newer parts shouldn't take away the charm of the watch. I refuse to pay thousands of dollars for something like an original 5512 1959 hands which you cant even find. I have a submariner 16610 and two datejusts that are authentic. I bet if you put this watch next to the other three and asked someone who doesn't collect watches, they wouldn't be able to tell which one is "real" as in 100% original.