When did Patek Phillippe stop hand finishing their watches?

[kunlun]

Hello, I'm writing today with a respectful question for knowledgeable folks about the recent history of PP.

Patek is great, but they have gone through some changes and I'd like to understand when this particular change happened.

First: Hand Finishing, who cares! While hand finishing is perhaps the single sign of haute horology, it's also a matter of quibbling over tiny things that don't matter to most people.

Second: There have been a lot of pictures posted of recent Patek movements showing telltale signs that PP is using mechanical finishing, and has greatly reduced or eliminated time intensive hand finishing. I will focus on an easy tell. Which is on the anglage. Anglage is the polished edges of movement plates, etc. When it is done by machine, you get vertical lines. Some call this "chattering", some call it, uh, little vertical lines.

You can see it on both dress models, such as annual calendars and PP sport watches, among other models.

Here's an example from a 5712:






Here is another example:



Okay, so I'm sure the minute repeaters are still marvelously finished, I'm not saying it's absolutely all models, but many. And remember that you are under no obligation either to care or to somehow "defend" Patek. That's silly.

Further, it may be only the last few years.

My guess, which I would like to hear informed comment on, is that when PP switched from the Geneva Seal (which requires fine hand finishing throughout the movement and defines this in detail) and over to their own PP Seal, it allowed them to change their standards as they increased production dramatically. That's my guess only!

[Russell996]

I have a 240 piece from GS period and also from PP seal period, I will try to compare them.

[kunlun]

Originally Posted by Russell996

I have a 240 piece from GS period and also from PP seal period, I will try to compare them.

Many thanks!

[tyler1980]

ive never thought mine were hand finished, whether they are or aren't i just assumed no.

My vision is some watchmaker using a mechanical machine and finishing the individual components while holding them... so sort of by hand i guess. Ive never thought they were doing it with hand tools, the exception being parts they couldn't do with a machine. Maybe for grand complications or something they are all hand finished.

If they did and no longer do at least im not disappointed as i never expected it for a watch purchased post industrial revolution.

interested to know now though.

[kunlun]

Originally Posted by tyler1980

If they did and no longer do at least im not disappointed as i never expected it for a watch purchased post industrial revolution.

interested to know now though.

They did and many high-end watch brands still do, A.Lange und Sohne being a good example.

[kingofthehill]

Originally Posted by tyler1980

ive never thought mine were hand finished, whether they are or aren't i just assumed no.

My vision is some watchmaker using a mechanical machine and finishing the individual components while holding them... so sort of by hand i guess. Ive never thought they were doing it with hand tools, the exception being parts they couldn't do with a machine. Maybe for grand complications or something they are all hand finished.

If they did and no longer do at least im not disappointed as i never expected it for a watch purchased post industrial revolution.

interested to know now though.

Well, the OP represents this as a matter of adhering to Geneva Seal standards or not. PP claims that the PP Seal is above and beyond.

[gmstevenson]

Great photos and interesting topic.

[kingofthehill]

Very interesting; subscribed.

[Calatrava r]

Was your watch serviced by someone other than PP. What you show looks like damage to me. If it left the factory that way that is not good.

[kunlun]

Originally Posted by Calatrava r

Was your watch serviced by someone other than PP. What you show looks like damage to me. If it left the factory that way that is not good.

Those are two pictures of different watches. Each is how they left the factory. This is how Patek currently finishes its watches, at least for the majority of models.

[thomaspp]

5712 is a steel entry level sports watch. let's not forget that.

[kingofthehill]

Originally Posted by thomaspp

5712 is a steel entry level sports watch. let's not forget that.

But we should also consider that the piece has just enjoyed a 20% price increase and that it carries the PP Seal, which is marketed as above and beyond the standards demanded by the Geneva Seal - that the piece carried before.

[debner4]

Originally Posted by kingofthehill

But we should also consider that the piece has just enjoyed a 20% price increase and that it carries the PP Seal, which is marketed as above and beyond the standards demanded by the Geneva Seal - that the piece carried before.

I just looked at my 5712/1a (purchased new in 2017) under a loup and I don’t see any vertical lines on the anglage at all. Perfectly smooth and uniform...

[thomaspp]

Originally Posted by kingofthehill

But we should also consider that the piece has just enjoyed a 20% price increase and that it carries the PP Seal, which is marketed as above and beyond the standards demanded by the Geneva Seal - that the piece carried before.

Marketed being the key word... some could argue that adopting the Patek seal over Geneva seal was simply to allow them to more easily hide true production numbers...

That being said Not sure why one would be too concerned with the finishing of a mass produced sports watch. Best.


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[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by thomaspp

Marketed being the key word... some could argue that adopting the Patek seal over Geneva seal was simply to allow them to more easily hide true production numbers...

Or other factors. This is not the first thread online about the diminishing quality of movement finishing work on Pateks in recent years (since changing to their own marketing scheme).

That being said Not sure why one would be too concerned with the finishing of a mass produced sports watch.

It's the Patek market, which is different than other brands as far as wanting 'perfection in all aspects'. Considering the price of Pateks...


Some personal feelings / thoughts after decades of Patek...
Personally, left the Patek market years back as the current craftsmanship, long service times, etc seem to have greatly diminished their perceived value in my eyes. This has nothing to do with which watch gains or loses in value, as i wear 'em. It is in regard to actual product craft and service, which Patek was once known as one of the best in the world. Not so much today.

There are some truly incredible timepieces by both 'major' brands and independents. If anything, Patek is falling far behind the curve as check out the incredible and innovative movements / complications available today in general. Patek, in my eyes, is now too 'old school' and their movements are now mainly their mainsteam Patek-type and slap on a few bits and bobs to add-on this or that additional complication. Like car manufacturers, it's easy to have a couple base platforms you build a car upon. So financially it makes sense, yet leaves behind a true dedicated and efficient 'single purpose' movement, (since this is TRF) i.e. Rolex Sky-Dweller with it's innovative bezel control... plus as you travel you can set it both fwd and backward. Real-world use and all that.

Yes Patek can make some incredible highly complicated watches with a true dedicated movement, yet those are very rare and quite limited. IMHO this is perhaps the only Pateks truly worth considering today (forgetting long service times) from a horologically interesting POV. Hopefully hand finishing is better on these models.

JMHO YMMV

[thomaspp]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

Some personal feelings / thoughts after decades of Patek...
Personally, left the Patek market years back

Thanks for this post - very interesting personal insight and speaking from the heart. You are not alone my friend.

[sensui]

Originally Posted by thomaspp

5712 is a steel entry level sports watch. let's not forget that.

I'm not a loupe guy...I fear it too much collecting vintage lol....but I have a buddy that's a big lange/patek haute fan that's huge on dissecting watches with a loupe..he has told me on multiple occasions he thinks the higher end Patek (grand complications and complications) are finished better than the stainless sports pieces like the Nautilus and Aquanaut. So there's probably truth to this.

[tyler1980]

Originally Posted by sensui

I'm not a loupe guy...I fear it too much collecting vintage lol....but I have a buddy that's a big lange/patek haute fan that's huge on dissecting watches with a loupe..he has told me on multiple occasions he thinks the higher end Patek (grand complications and complications) are finished better than the stainless sports pieces like the Nautilus and Aquanaut. So there's probably truth to this.

that was always my thought as well. I know we have previously been debating why Patek classifies certain watches as grand complications and not others. Simply being a PC most people dont think qualifies. Maybe there is more to it than simply the complications and the finishing is different. No idea, but it would make sense.

[Russell996]

Originally Posted by tyler1980

that was always my thought as well. I know we have previously been debating why Patek classifies certain watches as grand complications and not others. Simply being a PC most people dont think qualifies. Maybe there is more to it than simply the complications and the finishing is different. No idea, but it would make sense.

It would not be surprising if Patek finishes it’s PM pieces to a higher standard than it’s SS pieces even when the model reference is the same.
Certainly the 240 movement finishing in my SS Neptune is inferior to my PM WT as demonstrated in my previous post.

[tyler1980]

Originally Posted by Russell996

It would not be surprising if Patek finishes it’s PM pieces to a higher standard than it’s SS pieces even when the model reference is the same.
Certainly the 240 movement finishing in my SS Neptune is inferior to my PM WT as demonstrated in my previous post.

That makes sense. I’m very happy with my SS 5712 finishing though. At least from the top view. TBH I have not looked at the edges much




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[Russell996]

My photography skills are being tested (and found wanting) but here is a shot of my 5085 240 movement from 2005 (Geneva Seal) and my 5131 240 movement from 2015 (PP Seal). Hopefully you can see what I can see through my Loupe System glass? The PP seal 240 movement in the 5131 is finished to a higher standard than the Geneva seal movement in the 5085. Conclusion I would draw is that base movements are finished to a higher standard at a higher price point/complication and hence you can find images with Geneva Seal that look better than PP seal and vice versa!

5085



5131

[tom2517]

Patek in their website clearly shows with video that they finish the edge with a machine tool, we have been on this before. When do they start doing this? I am not sure but if you google older Patek movements, they have wide convex beveling which you do not see anymore on any modern Patek, including the GCs. Nowadays they look like a straight polished edge.

But I think pretty much every one does this, one can only find those convex beveling on watches like Dufour or Credor Eichi. Technology improves, it wouldn’t surprise me if one day they create machine tools that could also do convex beveling.

But in the end craftsmanship doesn’t equal to value. A Platinum Credor Eichi II (or GS 8 days for that matter) with far superior finishing is now worth less than a 5711.

[mafoofan]

I've been reading the requirements of both seals. Interesting that the Patek requirements, though overall broader and more strinngent, are more vague when comes to polishing bridges--edges must be chamfered and polished. However, the Geneva requirements specify that all signs of machine tooling must be removed. If I'm reading this distinction correctly, it might allow for the more poorly finished chamfers/bevels shown above.

That said, it's just armchair speculation.

Moreover, these are industrially made goods. Not only is the distinction between hand vs. machine finishing blurred, but perhaps not relevant. What should matter is the outcome. I see nothing wrong with first using a motorized wheel to bevel an edge before polishing by "hand" to provide the final detailing. However, I do agree some of the above photos show that this final detailing stage is being skipped or handled poorly in some instances.

On Credor / GS "value" vs. Patek . . . well, keep in mind finishing quality is only one aspect of what makes for a fine watch. In my opinion, at a certain level, the finer differences in finishing quality between two makes really shouldn't be a deciding factor.

[thomaspp]

Originally Posted by mafoofan

I've been reading the requirements of both seals. Interesting that the Patek requirements, though overall broader and more strinngent, are more vague when comes to polishing bridges--edges must be chamfered and polished. However, the Geneva requirements specify that all signs of machine tooling must be removed. If I'm reading this distinction correctly, it might allow for the more poorly finished chamfers/bevels shown above.

That said, it's just armchair speculation.

Moreover, these are industrially made goods. Not only is the distinction between hand vs. machine finishing blurred, but perhaps not relevant. What should matter is the outcome. I see nothing wrong with first using a motorized wheel to bevel an edge before polishing by "hand" to provide the final detailing. However, I do agree some of the above photos show that this final detailing stage is being skipped or handled poorly in some instances.

On Credor / GS "value" vs. Patek . . . well, keep in mind finishing quality is only one aspect of what makes for a fine watch. In my opinion, at a certain level, the finer differences in finishing quality between two makes really shouldn't be a deciding factor.

Correct me if I’m wrong but Patek seal requirements are made up by Patek itself and Geneva seal requirements are actual objective criteria created by a third party.... how can one even compare?


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[tyler1980]

Originally Posted by thomaspp

Correct me if I’m wrong but Patek seal requirements are made up by Patek itself and Geneva seal requirements are actual objective criteria created by a third party.... how can one even compare?


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thats the problem though. Everything i have read basically said that a watch could meet the minimum requirements and get a geneva seal. No special points for exceeding them. That puts a lesser watch on the same level as a superior watch as they have the same seal. VC as a top tier brand dont even have every watch carry a geneva seal, just certain ones. Patek applies the same standard to every single watch. Hardly seems fair when one brand cherrypicks models and one has the same standard for everything.

Plus AFAIK there was no requirement on rate testing of the movement when they left the geneva seal. that might have now changed though as i thought i read something about the geneva seal upping their game after patek left and they changed some things.

from an article...
"The Patek Philippe Seal goes far beyond the requirements for the Geneva Seal and addresses the two major complaints about it: that its criteria deal only with the watch movement and that they are only concerned with movement materials and finishing, not rate performance. In its press release announcing its seal, Patek takes a clear shot at both the Geneva Seal and COSC, Switzerland’s independent chronometer testing body, both of which judge uncased movements, not complete watches.It is indisputable,” Patek Philippe says, “that a hallmark of quality must apply to the whole watch. This fact called for a new seal that defines all competencies and features of relevance to the manufacture, precision, and lifelong maintenance of a Patek Philippe timepiece. The rules apply to all of the manufacture’s movements regardless of their complexity. It not only applies to the movements: it encompasses cases, dials, hands, pushers, spring bars for straps, etc., as well as the aesthetic and functional aspects of finished watches. Moreover, given that a Patek Philippe watch is first and foremost an instrument that measures time, the Patek Philippe Seal makes a binding statement regarding rate accuracy.”

Patek’s technical requirements are stricter than COSC’s. For calibers with diameters of 20 mm or more, the accuracy must be within -3 and +2 seconds per day. For calibers with diameters of less than 20 mm, the accuracy must be within -5 and +4 seconds per day. The requirements for tourbillon watches are even tighter. Patek will perform its rate tests in several phases of the manufacturing process. The final tests are conducted on fully assembled watches.

What’s more, under the terms of its seal, Patek Philippe offers the watch industry’s first promise of lifetime service on the watch. The firm pledges that it will service and restore every watch it has made since its founding in 1839 in Geneva. (The requirements for the Patek Philippe Seal, and other information about it, are available at www.patek.com.)

[TJMike]

Originally Posted by tyler1980

thats the problem though. Everything i have read basically said that a watch could meet the minimum requirements and get a geneva seal. No special points for exceeding them. That puts a lesser watch on the same level as a superior watch as they have the same seal. VC as a top tier brand dont even have every watch carry a geneva seal, just certain ones. Patek applies the same standard to every single watch. Hardly seems fair when one brand cherrypicks models and one has the same standard for everything.

].)

The only VC that does not have the seal is the SS Fiftysix three hander. All other VC watches have the seal.



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[tyler1980]

Originally Posted by TJMike

The only VC that does not have the seal is the SS Fiftysix three hander. All other VC watches have the seal.



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They have been doing more and more recently as just a few years ago it was way less. Not sure of all the requirements but I’m pretty sure the previous gen overseas weren’t (non in house movements maybe being the reason??). They highlight the Geneva seal a lot so it’s reasonable to assume most people think the same standard applies to everything when it doesn’t

There are some other watches (ladies versions I believe) without as well

Maybe a better example is Cartier.


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[Russell996]

Originally Posted by mafoofan

I've been reading the requirements of both seals. Interesting that the Patek requirements, though overall broader and more strinngent, are more vague when comes to polishing bridges--edges must be chamfered and polished. However, the Geneva requirements specify that all signs of machine tooling must be removed. If I'm reading this distinction correctly, it might allow for the more poorly finished chamfers/bevels shown above.

Originally Posted by thomaspp

Correct me if I’m wrong but Patek seal requirements are made up by Patek itself and Geneva seal requirements are actual objective criteria created by a third party.... how can one even compare?

As per my previous post I can categorically say my Geneva seal 240 is not finished to the same standard as my Patek seal 240 and in comparison shows unfinished edges. If my Geneva seal piece meets the standard which of course it does then it would seem no wonder Patek wished to try to improve the standard.

[mafoofan]

Originally Posted by thomaspp

Correct me if I’m wrong but Patek seal requirements are made up by Patek itself and Geneva seal requirements are actual objective criteria created by a third party.... how can one even compare?


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The requirements for each seal are defined by the entity that awards it.

There is no question that Patek awarding their own seal removes an element of impartiality when it comes to inspection and certification, but my point was that Patek's own polishing requirements appear less demanding and specific than for the Geneva Seal, as the latter specifically requires machine tooling marks to be removed whereas the former is silent on the matter. So, even before coming to the question of impartial/independent verification, one must confront the fact that at least in this small way, Patek has given themselves more wiggle room.

All that said, and as a separate matter, I don't see the big deal about third party verification. With the internet, the consumer himself is capable of auditing whether Patek is keeping its promises.

[mafoofan]

Very recent 324 SC from a 5296:



Bad iPhone pic, but the long chamfered edges appear smooth and don't appear to have any of the machine marks as seen in some of the examples above.