Rolex brand positioning over the years

[watchfan0529]

There are some who view that Rolex has been trying to "move up" in the market at the same level as Patek or AP, which is why their prices have gone steadily higher over the years even after adjusting for inflation. Would you agree to this statement?

To those more senior in this forum, how do you recall Rolex and its image when you were younger? Was it already the Rolex that we know today?

Some argue Rolex wasn't a luxury brand to begin with and that Submariners and the professional models were merely tool watches. However, imho looking further in Rolex's history, it seems that Hans Wilsdorf wanted Rolex to compete in the big leagues since the very beginning, which is why he kept making second-tier brands and eventually settled with the brand Tudor.

Share with us your thoughts!

[zjd168]

Rolex is not at the same level (in terms of price and finishing), and has no plan to compete in PP/AP's market.

Meanwhile I think Rolex is definitely a luxury brand.

[Andrejb]

I’ve heard that this crazy shortage of SS is due to Rolex lowering production on all SS models in hopes of mainly focusing on PM pieces to fall more in line with a “luxury” brand

Not my words. Just speculation through the grape vine


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[meyers]

With the availability issues and now newly redesigned website, it seems evident that Rolex is deliberately aiming for inaccessibility, and therefore, luxury. People want what they can't have.

[subtona]

I don’t see why Rolex should be concerned with Patek or AP.

They are different watches for a different buyer.
The Real luxury watches made by Patek and somewhat by AP are well into the six figures, that is a market that rolex has not addressed unless we are talking about gem covered unique pieces. Rolex does not produce Uber complicated watches nor does it produce high a level of movement finishing that draws customers to Patek and AP. Rolex design efforts are durable, reliable and timeless sport watches.

Rolex outsells and out performs both of them by multiples.

If anyone should be looking to evolve, I would expect it is AP and Patek

Patek in most instances are using tired old movements and struggling with dozens of different designs that are not appealing to their customers. The nautilus and the aquanaut are the most desirable watches that Patek is producing, this is rolex market.

AP had a rush with their ROO but the interest seems to have diminished some over the last year.

Yes rolex may be working their production to sell higher priced PM pieces but I don’t see them changing their designs to compete in the haute horological realm.
Just my late night

[tyler1980]

they are moving "up" for sure... not to the AP/PP level at all though.

They are firmly in the luxury space and that was not always the case especially with the professional watches.

IMO a mechanical watch has to be "luxury" to survive as its no longer really necessary to begin with. Its easier to sell luxury than function. Tudor is moving up as well it seems. In-house movements, lots of marketing etc.

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by subtona

I don’t see why Rolex should be concerned with Patek or AP.

They are different watches for a different buyer.
The Real luxury watches made by Patek and somewhat by AP are well into the six figures, that is a market that rolex has not addressed unless we are talking about gem covered unique pieces. Rolex does not produce Uber complicated watches nor does it produce high a level of movement finishing that draws customers to Patek and AP. Rolex design efforts are durable, reliable and timeless sport watches.

Rolex outsells and out performs both of them by multiples.

If anyone should be looking to evolve, I would expect it is AP and Patek

Patek in most instances are using tired old movements and struggling with dozens of different designs that are not appealing to their customers. The nautilus and the aquanaut are the most desirable watches that Patek is producing, this is rolex market.

AP had a rush with their ROO but the interest seems to have diminished some over the last year.

Yes rolex may be working their production to sell higher priced PM pieces but I don’t see them changing their designs to compete in the haute horological realm.
Just my late night

You totally had me in 100% agreement until you “ Rolex outperforms them”. You previously stated, and correctly, that these are two different leagues of brands. Rolex is an awesome watch but the movements are not even close to Patek and AP. In fact it’s not even fair to compare them. It’s like comparing the difference between a gocart and a Ferrari engine.

Rolex did great with its marketing because they got the reputation of being a somewhat affordable expensive watch in the 70s, 80s and 90s. Famous people were seen wearing them in the music and acting industries. That has just gotten worse over the years and made it more popular a brand.

Rolex for the most part is an image brand. It has been for the last 40 years. That’s because everyone knows what it is. Well almost everyone. :-) Patek and AP as well as many other luxury brands are serious horology.

I suspect the pricing increase comes from an awesome economy where more people have money to spend. Apparently Rolex is not increasing its production and so there’s much less to buy. That always increases pricing. On any product. Some guy started a thread a couple of days ago stating that he can’t wait for the economy crash so prices will fall and he can get a good deal on his next Rolex. Unfortunately there are only two ways for prices to stabilize or come down and that would be for the economy to crash or for Rolex to increase its production. I for one pray it’s the latter.

[subtona]

Originally Posted by Patton250

You totally had me in 100% agreement until you “ Rolex outperforms them”. You previously stated, and correctly, that these are two different leagues of brands. Rolex is an awesome watch but the movements are not even close to Patek and AP. In fact it’s not even fair to compare them. It’s like comparing the difference between a gocart and a Ferrari engine.

Rolex did great with its marketing because they got the reputation of being a somewhat affordable expensive watch in the 70s, 80s and 90s. Famous people were seen wearing them in the music and acting industries. That has just gotten worse over the years and made it more popular a brand.

Rolex for the most part is an image brand. It has been for the last 40 years. That’s because everyone knows what it is. Well almost everyone. :-) Patek and AP as well as many other luxury brands are serious horology.

I suspect the pricing increase comes from an awesome economy where more people have money to spend. Apparently Rolex is not increasing its production and so there’s much less to buy. That always increases pricing. On any product. Some guy started a thread a couple of days ago stating that he can’t wait for the economy crash so prices will fall and he can get a good deal on his next Rolex. Unfortunately there are only two ways for prices to stabilize or come down and that would be for the economy to crash or for Rolex to increase its production. I for one pray it’s the latter.

perhaps outperforms means different things to each of us, and perhaps it is not as significant in this context as all of the manufacturers make competent movements with modern technology and materials. much like water resistance ratings over 100 meters for a daily watch ... any benefit above 100 meters will likely never be realized by the user.

for clarity, when i refer to "outperforms," i am referring to durability and functionality, (timekeeping is likely on par with them all and the least of my concerns)

patek for example:
is still using movements that have not been updated for too long, often too small for their cases and with substandard power reserve by todays standards. additionally many of their calendar watches do not have modern protections to prevent damage when setting... of course rolex doesn't quite compete in the calendar watch arena.


all of the brands mentioned provide excellent reliability and some are finished with more beauty and care, that said i appreciate rolex industrial architecture as much as pateks half hearted attempts at finishing (compared to many other manufacturers at a similar price point)


after owning several pateks, my experience in general is i do not see their movements as being particularly interesting, nor beautiful, nor durable. (there are exceptions of course but they come with caveats) i guess this is a consequence of having a display back.

when it comes to rolex, they do not call attention to the movement, i don't see the movement, as a result my expectations of the movements are that my watch keeps ticking, is protected from moisture, has a practical power reserve and keeps time close enough were i don't show up late for meetings... regarding reliability, my experience has been positive for 27 years.

[Chester01]

Originally Posted by subtona

I don’t see why Rolex should be concerned with Patek or AP.

They are different watches for a different buyer.
The Real luxury watches made by Patek and somewhat by AP are well into the six figures, that is a market that rolex has not addressed unless we are talking about gem covered unique pieces. Rolex does not produce Uber complicated watches nor does it produce high a level of movement finishing that draws customers to Patek and AP. Rolex design efforts are durable, reliable and timeless sport watches.

Rolex outsells and out performs both of them by multiples.

If anyone should be looking to evolve, I would expect it is AP and Patek

Patek in most instances are using tired old movements and struggling with dozens of different designs that are not appealing to their customers. The nautilus and the aquanaut are the most desirable watches that Patek is producing, this is rolex market.

AP had a rush with their ROO but the interest seems to have diminished some over the last year.

Yes rolex may be working their production to sell higher priced PM pieces but I don’t see them changing their designs to compete in the haute horological realm.
Just my late night

I could not agree more. AP and PP make primarily dress watches in an era when even the ultra wealthy dress down. The few sport watch offerings by pp and AP (ie nautalus and royal oak) appear dated and though classified as sport watches have very little functionality. I can’t speak to the heartiness of their movements, but I would venture to give that edge to Rolex as well.

If I were to go in for a dress watch it would be Lange, and not AP and PP as I feel they have more compelling watches.

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by Chester01

I could not agree more. AP and PP make primarily dress watches in an era when even the ultra wealthy dress down. The few sport watch offerings by pp and AP (ie nautalus and royal oak) appear dated and though classified as sport watches have very little functionality. I can’t speak to the heartiness of their movements, but I would venture to give that edge to Rolex as well.

If I were to go in for a dress watch it would be Lange, and not AP and PP as I feel they have more compelling watches.

They have plenty of functionality. Just as much is any Rolex. They tell time right?

[Chester01]

Originally Posted by Patton250

They have plenty of functionality. Just as much is any Rolex. They tell time right?

Well no, I am one of the few on this forum that actually wear my pieces in all areas- mountain biking, hiking, yard work, swimming, etc. I also use the features such as the bezel on my sub, and chrono on my Daytona for my work, several times each day, where as I cannot use my phone for such features. So I need more than time, I need functionality. Can I wear a gshock for some of these things, not in many cases as I find the chrono hard to engage with my finger nail. Also life is short, wear what you like.


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[Patton250]

Originally Posted by Chester01

Well no, I am one of the few on this forum that actually wear my pieces in all areas- mountain biking, hiking, yard work, swimming, etc. I also use the features such as the bezel on my sub, and chrono on my Daytona for my work, several times each day, where as I cannot use my phone for such features. So I need more than time, I need functionality. Can I wear a gshock for some of these things, not in many cases as I find the chrono hard to engage with my finger nail. Also life is short, wear what you like.


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Dude. Patek and AP have TONS more functionality then Rolex if you wanna put it like that. And I’d be willing to bet a large sum of money those are not the reasons you bought a Rolex.

However your reasoning does sound like a great story for a reluctant wife.
“Sweetheart I need the 12k Daytona to time stuff at work and I also need the bezel on the 9k sub to see how long the waitress is gone”

Good stuff man.

Do you think that might work with high end cars? “ baby I have been late to work lately so I really need this Porsche.”

It’s all fun and good. I do use the Chrono function on my Breitling once in a while while cooking steaks. Of coarse I my eyesight sucks now so it is much easier using an iPhone for a stopwatch.

[broham84]

Originally Posted by subtona

I don’t see why Rolex should be concerned with Patek or AP.

They are different watches for a different buyer.
The Real luxury watches made by Patek and somewhat by AP are well into the six figures, that is a market that rolex has not addressed unless we are talking about gem covered unique pieces. Rolex does not produce Uber complicated watches nor does it produce high a level of movement finishing that draws customers to Patek and AP. Rolex design efforts are durable, reliable and timeless sport watches.

Rolex outsells and out performs both of them by multiples.

If anyone should be looking to evolve, I would expect it is AP and Patek

Patek in most instances are using tired old movements and struggling with dozens of different designs that are not appealing to their customers. The nautilus and the aquanaut are the most desirable watches that Patek is producing, this is rolex market.

AP had a rush with their ROO but the interest seems to have diminished some over the last year.

Yes rolex may be working their production to sell higher priced PM pieces but I don’t see them changing their designs to compete in the haute horological realm.
Just my late night

This man knows exactly what he is talking about.

[Rsdecker971]

Originally Posted by broham84

This man knows exactly what he is talking about.

He lost me after paragraph 3, when he switched objective to subjective.

I am new to the forum, but am amazed by the number of threads where Rolex fans feel the need to draw comparisons with Patek. Then no matter the subject of the comparisons, Rolex ‘of course’ must win it hands down.

I bought watches from these two brands, because they had different value propositions. Each brand is the best at what it does and I love having them both in my collection because of their differences.

Is a grand battle between Rolex and Patek some sort of WIS wet dream? The thunderdome of watches!!!

[broham84]

Originally Posted by Rsdecker971

He lost me after paragraph 3, when he switched objective to subjective.

I am new to the forum, but am amazed by the number of threads where Rolex fans feel the need to draw comparisons with Patek. Then no matter the subject of the comparisons, Rolex ‘of course’ must win it hands down.

I bought watches from these two brands, because they had different value propositions. Each brand is the best at what it does and I love having them both in my collection because of their differences.

Is a grand battle between Rolex and Patek some sort of WIS wet dream? The thunderdome of watches!!!

He was talking about as a business Rolex is leaps and bounds ahead of AP and PP. nothing to do with watches.

[Rsdecker971]

Originally Posted by broham84

He was talking about as a business Rolex is leaps and bounds ahead of AP and PP. nothing to do with watches.

Oh, Business movements.

I will give it to you, I love the passion out of the Rolex fans. Just out of curiosity, do the strong Rolex brand proponents have single brand collections?

[007_Omega]

I agree that they are moving up but it would be a mistake to try to be PP or AP. Rolex sells significantly more watches a year. It would be like Mercedes trying to be Ferrari or Lamborghini. It would be a ludicrous business move as the whole idea is to be a luxury item that is sought after, yet realistically attainable.

Rolex is certainly making moves with their Cellini to try to capture the high-end dress watch market but from what I gather from talking to ADs that hasn't been successful.

Another car analogy would be that Rolex like Mercedes is selling products that are top tier for them that match the price of entry level ultra high end brands.

I think Rolex also realizes that the watch market is ultimately moving more and more towards luxury. Watches being marketed as tools appeals to us enthusiasts but to the masses high end watches are a status symbol/symbol of accomplishment on the wrist.

[JP.]

Originally Posted by 007_Omega

I agree that they are moving up but it would be a mistake to try to be PP or AP. Rolex sells significantly more watches a year. It would be like Mercedes trying to be Ferrari or Lamborghini.

This is the best comparison I can think of.

Mercedes AMG models outsell Porsche, Jaguar and Maserati in their own playing field, while still selling low end luxury cars (C-class, E-class) like hotcakes.

Then they have something like S-Class Coupe 63AMG and AMG GT Coupe to compete against Bentley.

But they've always had their supermodels like McLaren SLS to compete against Ferrari and Lambo.

Audi and BMW are tough competitors in the family car class but S-class sells more than Audi, BMW and Jaguar together.

As a luxury brand it's very successful and sells high volumes, just like Rolex in the watch world. It's not as exclusive as Porsche but as a brand it's just as strong. Mercedes outsells Porsche among the superrich too... not everyone want to drive a flashy sportscar.

Rolex probably outsells Patek, JLC, AP, Lange, Breitling, IWC together by a ridiculous margin.

[tyler1980]

Originally Posted by JP.

This is the best comparison I can think of.

Mercedes AMG models outsell Porsche, Jaguar and Maserati in their own playing field, while still selling low end luxury cars (C-class, E-class) like hotcakes.

Then they have something like S-Class Coupe 63AMG and AMG GT Coupe to compete against Bentley.

But they've always had their supermodels like McLaren SLS to compete against Ferrari and Lambo.

Audi and BMW are tough competitors in the family car class but S-class sells more than Audi, BMW and Jaguar together.

As a luxury brand it's very successful and sells high volumes, just like Rolex in the watch world.

car analogies are a deeper rabbit hole than wearing a Rolex on vacation threads

[Krash]

Originally Posted by JP.

Audi and BMW are tough competitors in the family car class but S-class sells more than Audi, BMW and Jaguar together.

You talking about the high end luxury sedans, right?

S-class might outsell 7 series, but it doesn’t outsell 3 and 5 series sedans from BMW.


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[Sublovin]

Originally Posted by watchfan0529

There are some who view that Rolex has been trying to "move up" in the market at the same level as Patek or AP, which is why their prices have gone steadily higher over the years even after adjusting for inflation. Would you agree to this statement?

To those more senior in this forum, how do you recall Rolex and its image when you were younger? Was it already the Rolex that we know today?

Some argue Rolex wasn't a luxury brand to begin with and that Submariners and the professional models were merely tool watches. However, imho looking further in Rolex's history, it seems that Hans Wilsdorf wanted Rolex to compete in the big leagues since the very beginning, which is why he kept making second-tier brands and eventually settled with the brand Tudor.

Share with us your thoughts!

Rolex is a privately held company, so they do not need to share financial statements. That said, I think they appear to be doing very well, and have been for several decades. They are already seen by the masses as the benchmark in the higher end watch game, and I suspect they are very comfortable with where they fit in the world of horology. I would be surprised if they have any care or desire in trying to surpass brands like Patek when it comes to movement complication, etc.
I would imagine that they just want to make sure they stay positioned above brands like Omega, Breitling, and Tag Heuer which they continue to do.

[avega357]

I have been wearing a Rolex since 1985, for real. So let me try to answer your question

Even in 1985 Rolex had prestige because it was still expensive to own. I wore mine for work and never gave it a second thought

I would get comments at work like, hey that is a Rolex primarily because Back then a 40 mm sports watch was not common to wear in the office and it was considered big

So yes a Rolex was a Rolex in 1985 and has prestige and cache, I think what changed was that many people got rich (or at least well to do) and could afford a Rolex that could not 40 years ago

I think they are trying to move up market but only to fill the gap in the 10k to 20k space in SS


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[kingofthehill]

Whilst with a different approach to that employed by Audemars Piguet, Patek Philippe, Vacheron Constantin and the like, I think that Rolex will introduce further complications to their range over time and raise price points with those pieces.

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by kingofthehill

Whilst with a different approach to that employed by Audemars Piguet, Patek Philippe, Vacheron Constantin and the like, I think that Rolex will introduce further complications to their range over time and raise price points with those pieces.

That would be totally cool. Why would they? They won’t because they don’t have to. They don’t have to because they are Rolex.

[AK797]

Originally Posted by Patton250

That would be totally cool. Why would they? They won’t because they don’t have to. They don’t have to because they are Rolex.

I agree, rather things are going the other way with a strong move to sports and metal bracelets as is seen with PP where Nautiluses are hugely oversubscribed and dress comp pieces are undersubscribed and discounted, much to the chagrin of PP management. Rolex have caught the Insta Zeitgeist just right, all are looking to them, rather than Rolex looking to others now.

[1William]

I think that Rolex is a market all to itself. They are not trying to sell into PP or VC or AP. Different watches and while collectors might have watches across several brands the average customer does not walk much between the brands in terms of purchasing. I see Rolex's issues going forward having more to do with itself as opposed to outside forces.

[AK797]

Demand has shot up for their watches, I don't think Rolex have done hardly anything to manipulate this market further than just enjoying the ride and not adjusting their production to the new trends. As for moving up to HH, unless they make higher complications, have open casebacks with nicely decorated movements then they will remain where they are, as kings of the mid lux market, and with their brand stronger than ever, they should be well positioned to face the I-pressures that will descend on the luxury watch market, which must be their number one priority.

[77T]

Well, to me at least, things took a turn in new brand positioning after Rolex made the rap hit parade with Ayo & Teo, Soulja Boy, etc.

For example...

“I just wanna Rollie, Rollie, Rollie with a dab of ranch,
I already got some designer to hold up my pants,
I just want some ice on my wrist so I look better when I dance,
Have you lookin' at it, put you in a trance.”



Now seriously - when any brand gets into the mainstream media then things can get truly twisted demand-wise. When I think back to 20 years ago, I don’t recall smash and grab crews. I don’t remember watch robbers. Nor do I recollect the level of blind pursuit for the brand’s “newest model”.

So, there, I said it...

Oh, for the uninitiated - here is an interpretation of the lyric...

I just wanna Rollie, Rollie, Rollie with a dab of ranch

The word "Rollie" in this line refers to the well-known and expensive watch company, Rolex. More specifically, it is referring to a single watch, rather than the company. The "rapper" is expressing his desire for a Rolex. The phrase, "dab of ranch" is slang for "having diamonds on or embedded into an object." Ayo and Teo seem to want a Rolex with diamonds on it.


I already got some designer to hold up my pants

This set of lyrics is simple to decode. The person singing is sharing the fact that he has a designer belt, most likely one produced by the men's fashion line, Gucci.


I just want some ice on my wrist so I look better when I dance

In this phrase, "ice" refers to the diamonds on the Rolex watch. This word is chosen because of how the diamonds shine in the light. Because of its luster, Ayo and Teo believe that a Rolex watch will make them appear to be a better dancer.


Have you lookin' at it, put you in a trance

Another simple meaning: the duo believes that a fancy watch will make others believe that he is better than them. Though, this doesn't really happen.


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[Patton250]

Originally Posted by 77T

Well, to me at least, things took a turn in new brand positioning after Rolex made the rap hit parade with Ayo & Teo, Soulja Boy, etc.

For example...

“I just wanna Rollie, Rollie, Rollie with a dab of ranch,
I already got some designer to hold up my pants,
I just want some ice on my wrist so I look better when I dance,
Have you lookin' at it, put you in a trance.”



Now seriously - when any brand gets into the mainstream media then things can get truly twisted demand-wise. When I think back to 20 years ago, I don’t recall smash and grab crews. I don’t remember watch robbers. Nor do I recollect the level of blind pursuit for the brand’s “newest model”.

So, there, I said it...

Oh, for the uninitiated - here is an interpretation of the lyric...

I just wanna Rollie, Rollie, Rollie with a dab of ranch

The word "Rollie" in this line refers to the well-known and expensive watch company, Rolex. More specifically, it is referring to a single watch, rather than the company. The "rapper" is expressing his desire for a Rolex. The phrase, "dab of ranch" is slang for "having diamonds on or embedded into an object." Ayo and Teo seem to want a Rolex with diamonds on it.


I already got some designer to hold up my pants

This set of lyrics is simple to decode. The person singing is sharing the fact that he has a designer belt, most likely one produced by the men's fashion line, Gucci.


I just want some ice on my wrist so I look better when I dance

In this phrase, "ice" refers to the diamonds on the Rolex watch. This word is chosen because of how the diamonds shine in the light. Because of its luster, Ayo and Teo believe that a Rolex watch will make them appear to be a better dancer.


Have you lookin' at it, put you in a trance

Another simple meaning: the duo believes that a fancy watch will make others believe that he is better than them. Though, this doesn't really happen.


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Exactly!!!! I’ve always said that if Omega or Breitling want to have skyrocketing sales like Rolex all the need is the most popular rappers and NBA players to wear their watches and record breaking sales will be theirs. That is precisely why gold Royal Oaks from AP and gold Nautilus from Patek are impossible to get just like Rolex. If you also noticed a record-breaking amount of these Royal Oak’s and Nautiluses are being permanently destroyed with diamonds. It’s sad. Celebrity ownership, an awesome economy and the refusal to increase production by all three of these brands are what has caused the recent pricing and availability issues.

[brandrea]

I tend to think that Rolex is positioned perfectly and right where they want to be. Good watches with reliable movements at a fair price.

I don’t think they even try to compete with PP and AP and the other higher end brands.