PANERAI 2019: The Beginning of a New Scam Era!

[Panerol Forte]

I would like to hear your opinions in this thread after the unveiling of the new Submersible line-up.

Here is mine:

Untill some decades ago, the luxury industry used to provide the rich with refined high quality goods. Along with these goods came impeccable service and esteem for the patrons. There was only one golden rule: the satisfaction of the customer. It took years and efforts for those luxury brands to establish themselves as caterers of perfection and their reputation was above any consideration, not even financial.

Those were the golden days. Nowadays, luxury became synonymous of rip-off! Mass produced items manufactured in poor countries by underpaid workers in unhealthy environments are sold as Luxury items with incredible mark-ups to trusting customers unaware they are being ripped-off. Their golden rule nowadays is: make more money at any cost. Deception is acceptable, as long as profitability is increased.

What do I mean by deception? Making a costumer believe he is paying the real value of an object by giving false information is deception. Pretending the build process is long, complicated and time consuming to justify high premium, and the reality being completly the opposite, is deception.
I am going to give you an example of deception. "CARBOTECH": it sounds high tech! How do they describe it? "Forged Carbon Fiber". Panerai sells their Carbotech watches for a very high premium over stainles steel, so it must be very difficult and complex to manufacture, hence the price difference. The Submersible Marina Militare Carbotech 47mm PAM00979 sells for 19.900 Euros, and the Submersible Amagnetic 47mm PAM01389 for 10.700 Euros. That equates to a difference of 9.200 Euros, that's almost the double for the Carbotech. Same watch, same movement, P.9010 both, same water resistance. What if I told you that the stainless steel model cost them a LOT more to produce than the Carbotech?

Lets start with the "cheap" model, the stainless steel one. You already have seen all the CNC machines at work milling SS cases. SS is the most difficult metal to machine, it wears the tools like no other. Then, you have the finishing and the polishing. Dont forget the ceramic bezel, also not an easy job. And now let's talk about the Carbotech Forged Carbon Fiber. "Forged" sounds good. Some of you may think of a Japanese sword smith hammering his katana made of meteoritic steel next to a raging furnace. Others may think of the forged high performance pistons of their supercar, forged with a single stroke of a 50.000 Ton hydraulic press. Well, I hate to disappoint you all, the heat it takes to "forge"carbon fiber is 138 degrees celcius, that's 280.4 degrees fahrenheit... by comparison, french fries need the oil to be not less than 177 degrees C, or 350 degrees F, and the same temperature goes for your mom's cookies. What about the press that "forges"? well guess what? 1 Ton is more than enough! Time consuming? You must be kidding, you can make at least 10 Carbotech cases by the time you finish 1 SS case. You don't believe me? DO YOUR RESEARCH!

And now, for 2019, they raised the bar even higher. They took the same Carboteh watch, same movement, same WR, made some color variations, and they offer you the same watch that ranges from 17.900 Euros to 40.000 Euros, depending on the color you chose. Of course, the 40.000 Euros one is limited to 33 pieces, and comes with a training session with the elite divers of the Italian Navy. Well, if you buy one of those LE, everybody will know when they see your green watch that you are one of the 33 suckers that paid an extra 20.000 Euros to be ridiculed by a bunch of over trained elite divers that by the way use ultra sophisticated diving computers, not obsolete watches described on Panerai's website as "Survival instruments for modern heros".. yes, they want you to believe that if you give them your hard earned cash, you are a modern hero!

Another interesting thing is that the PAM00616 is still priced at 16.600 Euros, cheaper by 1.300 Euros than the cheapest new Submersible. The reason must be the fact that it has the P.9000 vs the P.9010 for the new ones. It makes sense. But then, I would like them to explain to us how come the new 42s, with the downgraded caliber are more expensive that the old Sub 42 that has a P.9010 .

I won't talk about the OP.XXXIV, a picture is worth a thousand words. Enjoy!

[Saoirse32]

So what you’re saying is you’re not too pleased with Panerai or its newest offerings or both?
I don’t get the OP movements either BTW

[Foxiness]

Agree

[deltabravo786]

Wow!

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[martinr]

Didn’t you just buy a gold submersible? Wasn’t that around 22K? The amount of gold in weight isn’t that much so why did you buy it? I like it. You could say the same thing about it as you’re saying about the carbotech models. So buying one of the new models isn’t really a rip off or a scam, just don’t buy if you don’t like them.

[Panerol Forte]

Originally Posted by martinr

Didn’t you just buy a gold submersible? Wasn’t that around 22K? The amount of gold in weight isn’t that much so why did you buy it? I like it. You could say the same thing about it as you’re saying about the carbotech models. So buying one of the new models isn’t really a rip off or a scam, just don’t buy if you don’t like them.

You really missed the point, didn't you? Of course you pay a premium for luxury item, you pay more than the value of the raw material, but when you buy a gold watch, you know that you are paying the extra for precious metal. But paying a huge premium for a cheap material that is presented as precious, that's when you get scammed. FYI, there is 5000$ worth of gold in my watch, so it is normal for it to be more expensive than a Stainless Steel. But, selling a watch whose case cost less than a Stainless Steel for double the price, that's a SCAM. I wish you to be one of the lucky 33.

Last time I answer such a post.

[martinr]

Originally Posted by Panerol Forte

You really missed the point, didn't you? Of course you pay a premium for luxury item, you pay more than the value of the raw material, but when you buy a gold watch, you know that you are paying the extra for precious metal. But paying a huge premium for a cheap material that is presented as precious, that's when you get scammed. FYI, there is 5000$ worth of gold in my watch, so it is normal for it to be more expensive than a Stainless Steel. But, selling a watch whose case cost less than a Stainless Steel for double the price, that's a SCAM. I wish you to be one of the lucky 33.

Last time I answer such a post.

I don’t think I missed the point at all. You claim carbotech is cheap to produce but don’t present any evidence to back up that claim. And, saying “huge premium” is relative. You seem annoyed because you don’t like how someone else might feel ok about paying a high price for something they like and want. Why would you care what someone else buys if you don’t want one in the first place. Do you like the carbotech models but think they’re too expensive or are you just looking out for the rest of us who might get scammed. Maybe you won’t answer but I want to know if you like the new carbotech models.

[The OG Beef]

Value is defined by the individual consumer and it involves far more than cost.


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[fullcourt]

So let me get this straight....you have an issue with people spending their money on what they want because you wouldn't spend it that way?

I have a simple mantra, buy what you like, wear what you want.

I wouldn't buy a gold anything but I don't begrudge you for buying what you liked.

Just my .02, of course I could be wrong.

As far as the new releases go, it's the year of the sub, some I like some I don't but I'm happy with the collection I have so for me it's a non-starter. But if someone wants to shell out 33K to hang with Mike Horn, then have at it....if someone wants to train with the Italian navy, have at it....doesn't bother me in the least, but to characterize these offerings as a 'scam' is a bit over the top. Again I'm sure I'm wrong.

[Saoirse32]

Originally Posted by fullcourt

So let me get this straight....you have an issue with people spending their money on what they want because you wouldn't spend it that way?

I have a simple mantra, buy what you like, wear what you want.

I wouldn't buy a gold anything but I don't begrudge you for buying what you liked.

Just my .02, of course I could be wrong.

As far as the new releases go, it's the year of the sub, some I like some I don't but I'm happy with the collection I have so for me it's a non-starter. But if someone wants to shell out 33K to hang with Mike Horn, then have at it....if someone wants to train with the Italian navy, have at it....doesn't bother me in the least, but to characterize these offerings as a 'scam' is a bit over the top. Again I'm sure I'm wrong.

^^^This. And I’m not quire sure the Carbotech, BMG, etc. are considered low grade materials or the processes to make them low grade. I happen to think they’re supercool.
Have you ever seen one in person, or held two Carbotech side by side? Although the same model, each one is cut differently thus each having a slightly different “look.”

I’ve only been a PAM fan/owner for the last few years but I’ve learned a lot and I believe they are unique and simply offer something different. I’ll defend the brand this way, while realizing ALL brands, shit, look at AP this year, swing and miss once and a while.
But getting scammed? C’mon

[Cru Jones]

Not sure how needing a low manufacturing temperature equates to a scam?

Anyway, the OP movements are a total joke, yes, but Panerai has a history of such moves. One either must accept it and buy, not accept but continue to love other elements of the brand or not accept and move on.

[Panerol Forte]

Originally Posted by Cru Jones

Not sure how needing a low manufacturing temperature equates to a scam?

Anyway, the OP movements are a total joke, yes, but Panerai has a history of such moves. One either must accept it and buy, not accept but continue to love other elements of the brand or not accept and move on.

I am talking about the whole manufacturing process of forged carbon. Usually, what defines the value of a material is eather its rarity, or the difficulty to manufacter it. Forged carbon is presented as a very high tech material very difficult to manufacture, hence the high price. If you research it, you will see that the whole manufacturing process is quite simple in fact. The scam I am talking about is: "misleading with false pretence the costumer into thinking he is buying something precious", when in fact it is not the case. Again, I highlighted in my post that if you don't believe me, do your own research. It took me time and effort to prepare this thread and make it as clear as possible, and a lot of people barely read it, took it personal, and jumped on their guns. And the most interesting part that took me a lot of time to prepare, the infamous caliber OP.XXXIV, nobody mentions it. And yes, I like Carbotech, and I was anxiously waiting for one in 42 to come out and buy it (see my previous thread about SIHH leaks). But to pay 17.000 Euros for a watch made of a nice looking but inexpensive material, and on top of that with a shared caliber with a 2.600 Euros entry level watch that has a higher power reserve and a longer warranty is not acceptable for me.

[rambo99]

Originally Posted by Panerol Forte

I am talking about the whole manufacturing process of forged carbon. Usually, what defines the value of a material is eather its rarity, or the difficulty to manufacter it. Forged carbon is presented as a very high tech material very difficult to manufacture, hence the high price. If you research it, you will see that the whole manufacturing process is quite simple in fact. The scam I am talking about is: "misleading with false pretence the costumer into thinking he is buying something precious", when in fact it is not the case. Again, I highlighted in my post that if you don't believe me, do your own research. It took me time and effort to prepare this thread and make it as clear as possible, and a lot of people barely read it, took it personal, and jumped on their guns. And the most interesting part that took me a lot of time to prepare, the infamous caliber OP.XXXIV, nobody mentions it. And yes, I like Carbotech, and I was anxiously waiting for one in 42 to come out and buy it (see my previous thread about SIHH leaks). But to pay 17.000 Euros for a watch made of a nice looking but inexpensive material, and on top of that with a shared caliber with a 2.600 Euros entry level watch that has a higher power reserve and a longer warranty is not acceptable for me.

do you mean the OP.XXXIV is not a stable, and durable movement?

[Panerol Forte]

Originally Posted by rambo99

do you mean the OP.XXXIV is not a stable, and durable movement?

Someone tried to make a point by comparing watches to cars. I will do it once. The Corvette engine is a hell of an engine, so is the car, but I wouldn't want to have it in my Ferrari.

[Jocke]

Originally Posted by Panerol Forte

Someone tried to make a point by comparing watches to cars. I will do it once. The Corvette engine is a hell of an engine, so is the car, but I wouldn't want to have it in my Ferrari.

Any pics of your Ferrari?

[Foxiness]

Originally Posted by rambo99

do you mean the OP.XXXIV is not a stable, and durable movement?

Don't know about the OP.XXXIV movement, but the p5000 movement is junk and that's a scam

[crazycarlitos]

Originally Posted by Foxiness

Don't know about the OP.XXXIV movement, but the p5000 movement is junk and that's a scam

Please elaborate.

I have p5000 and have no issue so far.

[holdtime]

Originally Posted by Panerol Forte

I am talking about the whole manufacturing process of forged carbon. Usually, what defines the value of a material is eather its rarity, or the difficulty to manufacter it. Forged carbon is presented as a very high tech material very difficult to manufacture, hence the high price. If you research it, you will see that the whole manufacturing process is quite simple in fact. The scam I am talking about is: "misleading with false pretence the costumer into thinking he is buying something precious", when in fact it is not the case. Again, I highlighted in my post that if you don't believe me, do your own research. It took me time and effort to prepare this thread and make it as clear as possible, and a lot of people barely read it, took it personal, and jumped on their guns. And the most interesting part that took me a lot of time to prepare, the infamous caliber OP.XXXIV, nobody mentions it. And yes, I like Carbotech, and I was anxiously waiting for one in 42 to come out and buy it (see my previous thread about SIHH leaks). But to pay 17.000 Euros for a watch made of a nice looking but inexpensive material, and on top of that with a shared caliber with a 2.600 Euros entry level watch that has a higher power reserve and a longer warranty is not acceptable for me.

Do not like it .Do NOT have to buy!

[subtona]

You’ve convinced me, I won’t buy another panerai

[Panerol Forte]

Originally Posted by subtona

You’ve convinced me, I won’t buy another panerai

Either you are the sharpest pencil in the box, or you are being sarcastic
I am not trying to incite anyone to stop buying Panerai, so please do not refrain from buying because of me... I will certainly continue buying them. I love those watches!

[subtona]

Originally Posted by Panerol Forte

Either you are the sharpest pencil in the box, or you are being sarcastic
I am not trying to incite anyone to stop buying Panerai, so please do not refrain from buying because of me... I will certainly continue buying them. I love those watches!

The title gave me the understanding you were not happy with the new Panerai offerings.

I have looked at the new carbon/ceramic release and price, I do not see the value compared to the other models in the line up nor do I find the not so great value retention on many of their models compelling...
I guess I had already made up my mind.

[Panerol Forte]

Originally Posted by subtona

The title gave me the understanding you were not happy with the new Panerai offerings.

I have looked at the new carbon/ceramic release and price, I do not see the value compared to the other models in the line up nor do I find the not so great value retention on many of their models compelling...
I guess I had already made up my mind.

I am definitely not happy with the new offerings, or the direction the company is taking under its new leadership. But I still love the PAMs and will be buying from previous years.

[Starwalker]

Thanks for bringing this to our attention...but reading this makes me wonder why you are on TRF and not the casio forums (great watches, but an actual value buy). You would be mind blown if you found out that the engine from the Bentley Conti GT V8 is from an Audi RS5/RS6.......or if you learned that the RR Ghost uses the same chassis has a 7 series? This is prevalent in every single industry. Especially fashion and accessories. I do agree with you on some points.....but such is the way of the world.

[Panerol Forte]

Originally Posted by Starwalker

Thanks for bringing this to our attention...but reading this makes me wonder why you are on TRF and not the casio forums (great watches, but an actual value buy). You would be mind blown if you found out that the engine from the Bentley Conti GT V8 is from an Audi RS5/RS6.......or if you learned that the RR Ghost uses the same chassis has a 7 series? This is prevalent in every single industry. Especially fashion and accessories. I do agree with you on some points.....but such is the way of the world.

First of all, thank you for your condescendence. Second, you wouldn't want to flaunt your car knowledge in front of me, my primery interest before watches being cars. I happen to be a known car collector that made headlines.

[Starwalker]

Originally Posted by Panerol Forte

First of all, thank you for your condescendence. Second, you wouldn't want to flaunt your car knowledge in front of me, my primery interest before watches being cars. I happen to be a known car collector that made headlines.

Not trying to be condescending......apologies.....that's why i agree with a few of your points.....you we rightfully bringing it to our attention...but the whole world is headed this way......and it's in a sad way, becoming more the "norm" than the exception, i guess i find that disappointing.......fewer things are built to last and built with pride these days.

[Panerol Forte]

Originally Posted by Starwalker

Not trying to be condescending......apologies.....that's why i agree with a few of your points.....you we rightfully bringing it to our attention...but the whole world is headed this way......and it's in a sad way, becoming more the "norm" than the exception, i guess i find that disappointing.......fewer things are built to last and built with pride these days.

No worries... You have a nice selection of watches, wear them in good health

[synequano]

Thankfully I'm not a big fan of either the submersible line or the carbotech so I'm not really affected by the latest releases

I don't know much about manufacturing carbotech but having held both 616 and 661 along with forged carbon AP,I don't like the material as it felt cheap and plasticky,I still prefer the older composite material for its (brown) color & lightness and ceramica for an even black finish

I won't ask someone to not buy any new pams,but for me,I'd rather spend my money elsewhere

The irony of the newest submersibles...the materials might be high tech,but they don't raise the WR rating,I think my Seiko SBDX011 can handle much more than those schmancy fancy divers

[rootbeer7]

Both Ssanyong and Lamborghini make cars. Casio and Patek make watches. There's something everyone.

[Pam673]

I agree with you. They are hyping up the material used in the Carbotech series to justify the premium.

The brand lost me a long time ago and its not getting any better now.

I think their root and brand value lies with the historic series and too bad that they are not doing anything on that front. My last 2 watches from them were the 721 and the 673, both LE and re-edition of the Kampfschwimmer and the 6152/1 MM.

[Panerol Forte]

Originally Posted by Pam673

I agree with you. They are hyping up the material used in the Carbotech series to justify the premium.

The brand lost me a long time ago and its not getting any better now.

I think their root and brand value lies with the historic series and too bad that they are not doing anything on that front. My last 2 watches from them were the 721 and the 673, both LE and re-edition of the Kampfschwimmer and the 6152/1 MM.

Great choice of PAMs.. both are beautiful watches with historic ties.. wear them in good health

P.S.: Careful with those plexis..