Real or fake 6262

[Wahlberg]

I just found this post on Instagram. I know he's experienced but is it true, everything he says? If so, how do 2 big parties miss out that it's fake?

https://www.instagram.com/p/CGc63G9HfTh/

[roh123]

AQ is terrible. Scott Kaplan is just not experienced with vintage.

[Kliminator]

Originally Posted by roh123

AQ is terrible. Scott Kaplan is just not experienced with vintage.

How can he not be experience with vintage when HQ Milton is primarily a vintage dealer ...? Doesn't make sense

[roh123]

Originally Posted by Kliminator

How can he not be experience with vintage when HQ Milton is primarily a vintage dealer ...? Doesn't make sense

HQ Milton has a completely different business today compared to when Jacek was working there. They now mostly sell modern or semi modern watches. Which is what Scott Kaplan knows best. Nothing weird at all.

[mattedialdoc]

Yeah, a lot worse than a relume dial


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[Tavli3]

Hard to refute the hard evidence he presented
Before anybody disparages please post ur evidence to the contrary


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[swish77]

Certainly does not look good. Dial is an authentic service dial, as noted, but the other highlighted parts look suspect. Hard to argue with the evidence, although let's hear some other thoughts.

So much of the focus/examination on these expensive vintage Rolexes is on the dial, so perhaps the other parts were just not properly ID'd and caught. Very sloppy by the auction house initially (never a fan anyway) and HQ Milton. Would be great to hear from Scott at HQ Milton. I don't see the 6262 listed on their website any more.

There's been talk that the company hasn't been the same since Jacek left. Maybe there's something to that.

[Wahlberg]

Originally Posted by swish77

Certainly does not look good. Dial is an authentic service dial, as noted, but the other highlighted parts look suspect. Hard to argue with the evidence, although let's hear some other thoughts.

So much of the focus/examination on these expensive vintage Rolexes is on the dial, so perhaps the other parts were just not properly ID'd and caught. Very sloppy by the auction house initially (never a fan anyway) and HQ Milton. Would be great to hear from Scott at HQ Milton. I don't see the 6262 listed on their website any more.

There's been talk that the company hasn't been the same since Jacek left. Maybe there's something to that.

I think it was taken offline. Direct link still works.

I hope they all get it sorted out and be more cautious.

https://www.hqmilton.com/timepieces/...d-papers-A3653

[Tavli3]

Not sure what other thoughts there could be. This is now getting to be a joke. HQ is a trusted seller and they put this up for sale at 60K and then when notified they still have on their website.
It states the dial is a Luminova service dial but it has the T swiss T marking? Wouldn't a Luminova dial just say Swiss or Swiss Made??

Also is Perizcope implying that the whole movement is fake or just some parts in the picture?

[swish77]

Originally Posted by Tavli3

Not sure what other thoughts there could be. This is now getting to be a joke. HQ is a trusted seller and they put this up for sale at 60K and then when notified they still have on their website.
It states the dial is a Luminova service dial but it has the T swiss T marking? Wouldn't a Luminova dial just say Swiss or Swiss Made??

Also is Perizcope implying that the whole movement is fake or just some parts in the picture?

Luminova dials can still be marked "T Swiss T." It's a known quirk.

The allegation is that the movement has been converted to a 727 movement, based on an incorrect balance bridge and a bad "727" stamp. Whether or not the whole movement is fake, I'm not sure. My guess is that it's a mixture of real and fake, based on the real service dial and other fake parts that make up the watch.

[pereztroika]

Originally Posted by swish77

The allegation is that the movement has been converted to a 727 movement, based on an incorrect balance bridge and a bad "727" stamp. Whether or not the whole movement is fake, I'm not sure. My guess is that it's a mixture of real and fake, based on the real service dial and other fake parts that make up the watch.

The movement is a mess. Aside from the already mentioned details, have a look at the overall finish and missing anglage (beweling) on all levers. Also, the "Fabr. Suisse" engravings. Imo defnitely a converted Valjoux 72/72X from another brand.




This is how the movement possibly looked like initially. See the balance cock? That's why conversion kits include a new balance bridge.




Cheers

Jose

[springer]

The listing at HQ Milton reads ...Authenticity Guaranteed. There seems to be a discrepancy there.

These high-end fake Daytonas are everywhere. It's too bad.

[swaini3]

What a shame..... Really. Hats off to perezcope for saving someone.

[Tavli3]

Thanks for that info appreciate it.

[swish77]

Statement just posted on IG by HQ Milton, with an apology. It was a consigned watch that has been returned to the owner:

https://www.instagram.com/p/CGdlMGtn...=1dw6cmu9oe1ri

[Tavli3]

Originally Posted by swish77

Statement just posted on IG by HQ Milton, with an apology. It was a consigned watch that has been returned to the owner:

https://www.instagram.com/p/CGdlMGtn...=1dw6cmu9oe1ri

That's great but as in the case with the 1675 if not for perezcope somebody would have gotten screwed and maybe never have known it. If you're a trusted seller you can't make these kinds of mistakes, not on 60K watches! We rely on their expertise to not get into these situations.
Just another black eye on the whole vintage collecting hobby.

[Dan S]

Originally Posted by swish77

Statement just posted on IG by HQ Milton, with an apology. It was a consigned watch that has been returned to the owner:

https://www.instagram.com/p/CGdlMGtn...=1dw6cmu9oe1ri

Black eye for HQM, but lucky for them that they didn't buy it. The owner is really screwed. I wonder if they have any recourse with AQ.

[214270Explorer]

Jeebus. Gotta be really careful, folks.

[Greglaw]

No one is perfect

No one

They took it off the site and apologized publicly

These days it is admirable to see someone admit they are wrong

[zapokee]

Originally Posted by Greglaw

They took it off the site and apologized publicly

These days it is admirable to see someone admit they are wrong

Agree. Such a respected and good-faith dealer shouldn't be flayed for a single mistake, especially when they've done the right thing and taken the mea culpa route.

[Dan S]

Originally Posted by zapokee

Agree. Such a respected and good-faith dealer shouldn't be flayed for a single mistake, especially when they've done the right thing and taken the mea culpa route.

And let's not forget that the blame for this entering the community traces back to Antiquorum. Granted, they already have a bad name, but mostly for financial reasons.

One also wonders about a watch purchased at auction in June being consigned for sale just a few months later; is there a story there?

Once again, we'll likely never get the full picture.

[roh123]

Originally Posted by Dan S

And let's not forget that the blame for this entering the community traces back to Antiquorum. Granted, they already have a bad name, but mostly for financial reasons.

One also wonders about a watch purchased at auction in June being consigned for sale just a few months later; is there a story there?

Once again, we'll likely never get the full picture.

AQ have been selling straight out fakes for years. Lots and lots of problem watches. Anything from Daytonas like this to Rinaldi dialed 3-6-9’s etc. The list is long and goes back basically ten years if not longer. Both old and new management. Just a very sad thing to this hobby. They do sell nice watches as well but I would really, really emphasize that it is buyer beware. You need to know exactly what you are doing. Newbies should stay far, far away from AQ.

[linesiders]

You know after you you have handled enough of them. I can't do it on a Daytona but i can do it on a Tudor. As Perez notes, the finishing on the movement is different from the Rolex version to whatever watch donated this movement.

Same can happen on other watches, handle enough of them and you can see the differences.

[Greglaw]

And great job picking it up by Jose...he’s the man I’d want in my corner confirming authenticity...good lesson for all of us and no one got hurt.

[roh123]

Originally Posted by Greglaw

And great job picking it up by Jose...he’s the man I’d want in my corner confirming authenticity...good lesson for all of us and no one got hurt.

Someone did get hurt. It sold from AQ to someone for 45k.

[swish77]

Originally Posted by roh123

Someone did get hurt. It sold from AQ to someone for 45k.

I've been saying it for years ... these auction houses (Phillips, Sothebys, Christies, and in this case, Antiquorum) are not much better than a fancy Ebay. You cannot let your guard down no matter who's selling the watch. Sure, sometimes there are great examples for sale, but you need to be so careful. Just like with every other purchase, you need to do a massive amount of homework.

I sometimes work with these auction houses in the art world, and occasionally run into the same problem. They're overwhelmed, understaffed, and often with a lack of expertise, which can lead to sloppiness. HQ Milton got burned too in this case. Big black eye.

I can't tell if this situation is getting worse with full fakes, Franken-watches, undisclosed relumes, etc .... with vintage Daytonas, GMTs, red Subs, whatever ... Or whether the community policing by experts like Jose at Perezcope is just getting better, which is great, of course.

[roh123]

Originally Posted by swish77

I've been saying it for years ... these auction houses (Phillips, Sothebys, Christies, and in this case, Antiquorum) are not much better than a fancy Ebay. You cannot let your guard down no matter who's selling the watch. Sure, sometimes there are great examples for sale, but you need to be so careful. Just like with every other purchase, you need to do a massive amount of homework.

I sometimes work with these auction houses in the art world, and occasionally run into the same problem. They're overwhelmed, understaffed, and often with a lack of expertise, which can lead to sloppiness. HQ Milton got burned too in this case. Big black eye.

I can't tell if this situation is getting worse with full fakes, Franken-watches, undisclosed relumes, etc .... with vintage Daytonas, GMTs, red Subs, whatever ... Or whether the community policing by experts like Jose at Perezcope is just getting better, which is great, of course.

There’s levels of it. AQ sells counter-fit stuff. I would rather not put in them in the same level as the three big ones. They are borderline crooks that look away to make an easy buck. I would not call the rest of them that.

[330ci]

Originally Posted by roh123

There’s levels of it. AQ sells counter-fit stuff. I would rather not put in them in the same level as the three big ones. They are borderline crooks that look away to make an easy buck. I would not call the rest of them that.

Christie’s and Sotheby’s both have authenticity clauses I believe as well that holds the seller accountable if their item turns out to be fake.

[Greglaw]

The Antiquorum is a separate matter. In my State the buyer would have claims but more facts and information would be needed. The right thing to do would be to refund the buyer’s money,. If they did not there would be a number of theories for recovery.

Originally Posted by swish77

I've been saying it for years ... these auction houses (Phillips, Sothebys, Christies, and in this case, Antiquorum) are not much better than a fancy Ebay. You cannot let your guard down no matter who's selling the watch. Sure, sometimes there are great examples for sale, but you need to be so careful. Just like with every other purchase, you need to do a massive amount of homework.

I sometimes work with these auction houses in the art world, and occasionally run into the same problem. They're overwhelmed, understaffed, and often with a lack of expertise, which can lead to sloppiness. HQ Milton got burned too in this case. Big black eye.

I can't tell if this situation is getting worse with full fakes, Franken-watches, undisclosed relumes, etc .... with vintage Daytonas, GMTs, red Subs, whatever ... Or whether the community policing by experts like Jose at Perezcope is just getting better, which is great, of course.

[g-boac]

Originally Posted by roh123

Someone did get hurt. It sold from AQ to someone for 45k.

Originally Posted by 330ci

Christie’s and Sotheby’s both have authenticity clauses I believe as well that holds the seller accountable if their item turns out to be fake.

Question - would the original purchaser of this watch have recourse against AQ for this? And does anyone with experience buying from Christie's or Sotheby's know whether they have do indeed have authenticity clauses as @330ci referenced, and how those work? (i.e., is it a "three day inspection period if not as described" like we often see in the forums, or is it something more comprehensive and for a longer period?) For example, if something like this present situation happens where three or six months down the line a significant discovery is made impeaching the authenticity of the watch, will they purchase it back at the sale price?