Need Italian Translation Help, Again

[KathleenL]

I'm still working on my paternal Italian genealogy. I am used to seeing notations on birth records that tell about subsequent marriages/deaths. But, I've come across this one, and I'm not sure what it says. Can anyone translate this for me? This is from the birth record for Giuseppe Lucarini, born 06 Sep 1874.

[themast]

I am mother tongue but I actually have a hard time interpreting some of the words...

This is what I understood

"Con sentenza del Regio Tribunale [not sure] 28.[not sure].1900 è stata autorizzata la rettifica dell'atto di nascita di [not sure] nel senso che dove è scritto "sesso maschile" ed il nome di Giuseppe debba invece leggersi ed intendersi "sesso femminile" ed il nome di Giuseppa"

"The Royal Courthouse verdict dated 28.[not sure].1900 ratified the adjustment of the birth certificate [not sure, I think "aforementioned" or something like that] in the sense that where it is written "male sex" and the name Giuseppe, should instead be read and understood as "female sex" and the name Giuseppa"

Does this make any sense to you?

[KathleenL]

Yes! It does make sense to me. That's what I thought it said, but I couldn't read the handwriting well enough to be able to type it into Google Translate. THANK YOU!

[themast]

Cool.

I am confused by two aspects.
(1) Was Giuseppe a girl?
(2) in Italian the female version of Giuseppe is typically Giuseppina and I am surprised they wrote Giuseppa. However, there is quite an ornament after the “a”, perhaps that means something?

[Moondoggy]

Originally Posted by themast

Cool.

I am confused by two aspects.
(1) Was Giuseppe a girl?
(2) in Italian the female version of Giuseppe is typically Giuseppina and I am surprised they wrote Giuseppa. However, there is quite an ornament after the “a”, perhaps that means something?

Girl, boy, non binary etc they were way ahead of their time.

[fmc000]

Originally Posted by themast

Cool.

I am confused by two aspects.
(1) Was Giuseppe a girl?
(2) in Italian the female version of Giuseppe is typically Giuseppina and I am surprised they wrote Giuseppa. However, there is quite an ornament after the “a”, perhaps that means something?

In the past centuries also Giuseppa was used, albeit far less common. BTW, I completely agree with your translation. I suppose that "Giuseppe Lucarini" the boy never existed but "Giuseppa Lucarini" the girl did.

[KathleenL]

In my Italian genealogy research, I have seen Giuseppa much more often than Giuseppina. And, yes, I believe that the notation was to correct the original record’s error in stating that the newborn was a male named Giuseppe, because the newborn was actually a female named Giuseppa. Further research has shown that this Giuseppa Lucarini married a man named Luigi Iorio in 1906. My research over the years has shown that, at least back in the 1800s and early 1900s, when a couple wanted to marry they had to provide a facsimile of their birth record. So, I imagine what happened is that when Giuseppa got a copy of her birth record and found that it says she was a male, that it had to be corrected.

Again, I thank you both for your assistance.

[1st amg]

Beautiful name Giuseppina.....that is my mother's name and now my 13 yr old daughter's name!

[themast]

Originally Posted by fmc000

In the past centuries also Giuseppa was used, albeit far less common. BTW, I completely agree with your translation. I suppose that "Giuseppe Lucarini" the boy never existed but "Giuseppa Lucarini" the girl did.

Originally Posted by KathleenL

In my Italian genealogy research, I have seen Giuseppa much more often than Giuseppina. And, yes, I believe that the notation was to correct the original record’s error in stating that the newborn was a male named Giuseppe, because the newborn was actually a female named Giuseppa. Further research has shown that this Giuseppa Lucarini married a man named Luigi Iorio in 1906. My research over the years has shown that, at least back in the 1800s and early 1900s, when a couple wanted to marry they had to provide a facsimile of their birth record. So, I imagine what happened is that when Giuseppa got a copy of her birth record and found that it says she was a male, that it had to be corrected.

Again, I thank you both for your assistance.

Ok, makes sense then. I guess my confusion started because you introduced him as Giuseppe Lucarini, so I did not understand why HE needed this correction. I guess today an error like that would be caught quickly but I can see how back in the day one would not notice until much later in life (if at all!).

Originally Posted by 1st amg

Beautiful name Giuseppina.....that is my mother's name and now my 13 yr old daughter's name!

Yeah, we also kept the tradition of naming kids after grandparents. There is a saying that goes "give them the name and they will become that person" (literal translation of "mettici il nome che ci diventa").

[KathleenL]

Ah, but that tradition of naming kids after the grandparents wreaks havoc when doing genealogy research! For those who don't know, the Italian (as well as Irish) naming convention is to name the first-born male child after the paternal grandfather, the first-born female child after the paternal grandmother, the second-born male child after the maternal grandfather, and the second-born female child after the maternal grandmother.

One of my 3x great-grandfathers was named Giorgio. He and his wife had 11 children, 6 of whom were male. Of the 6 male children, three lived long enough to marry and have children of their own. And all 3 have first-born male children named Giorgio - born in 1846, 1852, and 1857. All over Italy, there are first-cousins close in age with the same name. It's frustrating to me when Italian vital records don't include the parents' names because those names are such a big help when trying to determine which same-named person is the right one!

And I do have a great-aunt Giuseppa. Actually, Maria Giuseppa, but she was known as Giuseppa.

[themast]

Originally Posted by KathleenL

Ah, but that tradition of naming kids after the grandparents wreaks havoc when doing genealogy research! For those who don't know, the Italian (as well as Irish) naming convention is to name the first-born male child after the paternal grandfather, the first-born female child after the paternal grandmother, the second-born male child after the maternal grandfather, and the second-born female child after the maternal grandmother.

One of my 3x great-grandfathers was named Giorgio. He and his wife had 11 children, 6 of whom were male. Of the 6 male children, three lived long enough to marry and have children of their own. And all 3 have first-born male children named Giorgio - born in 1846, 1852, and 1857. All over Italy, there are first-cousins close in age with the same name. It's frustrating to me when Italian vital records don't include the parents' names because those names are such a big help when trying to determine which same-named person is the right one!

And I do have a great-aunt Giuseppa. Actually, Maria Giuseppa, but she was known as Giuseppa.

And then after grandparents you start using first aunts/uncles names. So the same names proliferates in the family.

My grandfathers had the same name so there was really only one option for me! Then in every family gathering (on both sides) there would always be at least 3-4 people with the same name (my dad had 5 siblings and my mom 4, so plenty of cousins).

[KathleenL]

Originally Posted by themast

And then after grandparents you start using first aunts/uncles names. So the same names proliferates in the family.

My grandfathers had the same name so there was really only one option for me! Then in every family gathering (on both sides) there would always be at least 3-4 people with the same name (my dad had 5 siblings and my mom 4, so plenty of cousins).

Yes, it's so much fun for an adult to call out someone's name, and have several children respond, because they all have the same name!

And there are many families on my mom's Irish Catholic side that had 14-16 kids.

Between the Italian Catholics and Irish Catholics, all with lots of kids, there have been days when my brain has hurt from genealogy research because it can be so confusing! But, I love it and won't stop!

[fmc000]

Originally Posted by KathleenL

Ah, but that tradition of naming kids after the grandparents wreaks havoc when doing genealogy research! For those who don't know, the Italian (as well as Irish) naming convention is to name the first-born male child after the paternal grandfather, the first-born female child after the paternal grandmother, the second-born male child after the maternal grandfather, and the second-born female child after the maternal grandmother.

I have to say that this tradition is still is use almost only in the South of Italy and in families that moved from the South to the North. The new generations in the North ot Italy don't follow this tradition anymore.

[1st amg]

Originally Posted by fmc000

I have to say that this tradition is still is use almost only in the South of Italy and in families that moved from the South to the North. The new generations in the North ot Italy don't follow this tradition anymore.

My wife and I are from south Italy and it is still popular, but I have family all over Italy and it is still customary for some. My son is also named after my late father Giovanni. I have to admit, now that my father is no longer here, having my son named after him, was the best thing we decided to do. Hearing my father's name now that he is gone, or seeing my father's name on documents, registrations etc due to my son is something special. Even though my father is no longer here, having and hearing his name carries on his legacy. Otherwise, its like he was not ever here. Its just an interesting dynamic, a legacy that never seems to end.

[KathleenL]

Originally Posted by fmc000

I have to say that this tradition is still is use almost only in the South of Italy and in families that moved from the South to the North. The new generations in the North ot Italy don't follow this tradition anymore.

Originally Posted by 1st amg

My wife and I are from south Italy and it is still popular, but I have family all over Italy and it is still customary for some. My son is also named after my late father Giovanni. I have to admit, now that my father is no longer here, having my son named after him, was the best thing we decided to do. Hearing my father's name now that he is gone, or seeing my father's name on documents, registrations etc due to my son is something special. Even though my father is no longer here, having and hearing his name carries on his legacy. Otherwise, its like he was not ever here. Its just an interesting dynamic, a legacy that never seems to end.

I actually love the tradition. Yes, it's frustrating when doing genealogy research if the names of both parents aren't provided, but it's such a connection to previous generations.

My older sister and I have both had our DNA done through Ancestry. My mother's side is mostly Irish, with a bit of German and English. My father's side is Italian. I've always thought of myself as half-Italian and half-Irish, but my DNA skews 2 percent more Irish. But, I "feel" more Italian. When I look at photos of Italy, I feel so much inner peace. I really think I'd like to live there.

[brandrea]

I really like these threads Kathleen.

We have such a wealth of information and knowledge here on TRF

How is the overall puzzle coming together?

[KathleenL]

Originally Posted by brandrea

I really like these threads Kathleen.

We have such a wealth of information and knowledge here on TRF

How is the overall puzzle coming together?

Glad you are enjoying this! I am so, so, so thankful that there are Italians in this group that are willing to translate things for me. I'm usually pretty good at deciphering/translating the "important stuff" in an Italian vital record, but sometimes I come across things that I've never seen before and I get twisted around trying to figure them out.

How is the overall puzzle coming together? Sigh... In some ways, it's amazing, in other ways I'm banging my head against a brick wall.

My father was career Army, so when I was a child, we were moving to a new location every two years or so. As a result, we didn't live near any of our family, so I didn't grow up with family stories told around the dinner table, or going to family gatherings, etc. And, typical for a child, I wasn't interested in family history anyway. I grew up knowing nothing about my mother's ancestry (she was the younger of only two girls), and very little about my father's.

With regard to my father's side -- I knew that my grandfather, Joseph, would have been Giuseppe in Italy. I knew his parents' names. I knew what day he was born, and where (01 Dec 1891 in Villa Santo Stefano), and I knew what day he landed at Ellis Island. I knew he had a brother named Augusto, but I didn't know if Augusto was older or younger. I didn't know of any other siblings of his. I knew my grandfather's best friend in Villa Santo Stefano also came to the USA, and that he ended up marrying one of my grandmother's first cousins. I knew that we had relatives who were Mafia, but not who they were. Whenever I would ask, my father would always say, "It's better that you don't know." I knew that my grandmother's mother (my great-grandmother) was blinded when she was about three. She was then placed into a convent in France where she learned how to play the piano, and to knit, crochet, sew, and do other needlework. She was an excellent seamstress. She came to the US with her family when she was 16. (I don't know how long she was in the convent.)

I grew up with an Italian surname that I presumed was my grandfather's surname. But, genealogy research revealed the fact that my grandfather changed his surname when he came to the US. He changed the vowel at the end of the name. And the change became legal when he became a naturalized citizen. (And my research has shown that many Italians changed their surnames upon arrival in the US, or soon thereafter. The change was usually just dropping the final vowel, or changing it or another vowel within the name. It's like it represented a new beginning in a new country, while still retaining the essence of their Italian heritage.)

Anyway, in the past year I have been able to add literally thousands of names to my family tree because of vital records I have found on the Italian Archives site - https://antenati.cultura.gov.it/esplora-gli-archivi/ - as well as the Family Search site. I've been able to determine the names of 13 of my 5x great-grandparents!! I only know the names of 3 of my 3x great-grandparents on my mother's side...

My frustration now, though, is in researching my paternal grandfather's family in Villa Santo Stefano because there are so few records available. And there are NO death records available.

[brandrea]

Originally Posted by KathleenL

Glad you are enjoying this! I am so, so, so thankful that there are Italians in this group that are willing to translate things for me. I'm usually pretty good at deciphering/translating the "important stuff" in an Italian vital record, but sometimes I come across things that I've never seen before and I get twisted around trying to figure them out.



How is the overall puzzle coming together? Sigh... In some ways, it's amazing, in other ways I'm banging my head against a brick wall.



My father was career Army, so when I was a child, we were moving to a new location every two years or so. As a result, we didn't live near any of our family, so I didn't grow up with family stories told around the dinner table, or going to family gatherings, etc. And, typical for a child, I wasn't interested in family history anyway. I grew up knowing nothing about my mother's ancestry (she was the younger of only two girls), and very little about my father's.



With regard to my father's side -- I knew that my grandfather, Joseph, would have been Giuseppe in Italy. I knew his parents' names. I knew what day he was born, and where (01 Dec 1891 in Villa Santo Stefano), and I knew what day he landed at Ellis Island. I knew he had a brother named Augusto, but I didn't know if Augusto was older or younger. I didn't know of any other siblings of his. I knew my grandfather's best friend in Villa Santo Stefano also came to the USA, and that he ended up marrying one of my grandmother's first cousins. I knew that we had relatives who were Mafia, but not who they were. Whenever I would ask, my father would always say, "It's better that you don't know." I knew that my grandmother's mother (my great-grandmother) was blinded when she was about three. She was then placed into a convent in France where she learned how to play the piano, and to knit, crochet, sew, and do other needlework. She was an excellent seamstress. She came to the US with her family when she was 16. (I don't know how long she was in the convent.)



I grew up with an Italian surname that I presumed was my grandfather's surname. But, genealogy research revealed the fact that my grandfather changed his surname when he came to the US. He changed the vowel at the end of the name. And the change became legal when he became a naturalized citizen. (And my research has shown that many Italians changed their surnames upon arrival in the US, or soon thereafter. The change was usually just dropping the final vowel, or changing it or another vowel within the name. It's like it represented a new beginning in a new country, while still retaining the essence of their Italian heritage.)



Anyway, in the past year I have been able to add literally thousands of names to my family tree because of vital records I have found on the Italian Archives site - https://antenati.cultura.gov.it/esplora-gli-archivi/ - as well as the Family Search site. I've been able to determine the names of 13 of my 5x great-grandparents!! I only know the names of 3 of my 3x great-grandparents on my mother's side...



My frustration now, though, is in researching my paternal grandfather's family in Villa Santo Stefano because there are so few records available. And there are NO death records available.

What an incredible journey! Thank you for bringing us along and I hope somehow you find the missing pieces of the puzzle

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk

[fmc000]

Originally Posted by KathleenL

I grew up with an Italian surname that I presumed was my grandfather's surname. But, genealogy research revealed the fact that my grandfather changed his surname when he came to the US. He changed the vowel at the end of the name. And the change became legal when he became a naturalized citizen. (And my research has shown that many Italians changed their surnames upon arrival in the US, or soon thereafter. The change was usually just dropping the final vowel, or changing it or another vowel within the name. It's like it represented a new beginning in a new country, while still retaining the essence of their Italian heritage.)

Just a small correction: it's not that "many Italians changed their surnames upon arrival in the US": even if it's possible that someone faked their data when asked to provide their details upon arriving in the US, these are exceptions.

In general the problem is simple: almost the 100% of them couldn't speak English at all and most of them were illiterates therefore, when asked the first and last name by the Officers, they often couldn't make themself clear. Many times they even told them their home village name when asked for the last name.

I personally know people here in Italy whose last name is "Mortin" and their American cousins are called "Montini" and a guy whose surname is "Dente" and his American relatives are "Denti".

I have no proof of what I'm saying of course but I suspect that the former football player Tony Siragusa is an example of both the things I stated before: his last name is derived from the city of Siracusa, in Sicily, and there is also a spelling mistake in it. I also met years ago one of my American cousin friends whose surname is also Siracusa, this time spelled correctly.

[KathleenL]

In case anyone is wondering --- Augusto was a younger brother to my grandfather. My grandfather was the oldest of 8 (5 male, 3 female). Augusto and one other brother were Mafia, as was one of my grandmother's brothers. My grandmother's brother was buddies with Al Capone, and he (my great-uncle) was one of the guys who "got away" during the 1957 Apalachin meeting in New York.

[1st amg]

Kathleen, have you ever visited Villa Santo Stefano? Many times, these small villages have citizens who are the "go-to" people for the unwritten history. The more you speak to the habitants, the more information you may uncover. Is this village in the North or South of Italy out of curiosity?

[KathleenL]

Originally Posted by 1st amg

Kathleen, have you ever visited Villa Santo Stefano? Many times, these small villages have citizens who are the "go-to" people for the unwritten history. The more you speak to the habitants, the more information you may uncover. Is this village in the North or South of Italy out of curiosity?

The only time I've been to Villa Santo Stefano was when I was a child, when we were stationed in Europe (my father was career Army). My older sister and her husband spent a few hours there back in 2007 when they did a Rick Steves tour of Italy. The tour ended in Rome, and they booked an extra couple of nights there before returning to the States. They took a bus ride to VSS and because of the length of the ride and when they needed to catch the bus to return to Rome, they were only able to spend a few hours there. Villa Santo Stefano is in the Province of Frosinone in the Lazio region. It's about 80 km southeast of Rome. They went into the Comune office and asked about looking at the vital record books, but were told that only Italians could see them. I had created (through the Family Tree Maker software) some charts showing our line of ancestry to our grandfather and great-grandparents in Villa Santo Stefano, which she then pulled out of her purse and showed the women working there. They then produced some "books" that Mary said were small - they were about the size of receipt books. But did she find any information that we needed? No. Well, she might have, but if she did, she didn't realize it. She doesn't speak or read Italian and really doesn't know what to "zoom in on" when looking at an Italian vital records document. And none of the workers in the Comune office spoke English, so they really couldn't help. Mary and Jim did go to the cemetery and took 15 pictures of various markers, but she didn't find the markers for our great-grandparents. And out of those 15 pictures, 6 were for folks on our family tree.

[KathleenL]

No, Fabio, I'm not saying that anyone "faked their data when asked to provide their details upon arriving in the US." The ship manifest records show their names correctly, but sometime later the folks changed their name. My grandfather deliberately changed the final vowel of his surname. His naturalization papers show that he requested the name change. His best friend changed his surname from Tranelli to Trenelli. Some of Tranelli's siblings changed their surname to Tranell. Other relatives changed their name from Bellettieri to Belletieri. Angarola to Angarole and from Angarola to Angarolo. They maintained basically the same name, but slightly different. And then there was Giuseppe Balascio who deliberately changed his name to Joseph Sullivan.

[fmc000]

Wow, very interesting! Thanks for letting me know all this.

[Chewbacca]

You’re throwing rocks at a hornets nest in the old country, Kathleen.

The house and farm was left to Luigi.

Let it go.

[KathleenL]

Stai attento Chewbacca. Potrei dover chiedere a Guido di parlare con te.