Advice on path to Patek perpetual chronograph

[FrançoisCzapek]

I'm a fan of the 5960P and 5905P, the annual chronographs in platinum. I'm a fan of the more classic Patek faces and never chased the Aquanauts, and love the idea of the engineering that goes into a watch.

My grail pursuit is obviously going to take me to a perpetual chronograph in platinum, unless for some reason I want to deviate and chase discontinued steel Aquanauts thinking their prices have dipped.

I'm a bit confused on how to filter the perpetual chronographs in platinum from Patek's website and how to spot the recently discontinued models. My understanding is, these are my choices:

- 5270P 41 mm - would love to have this in the salmon dial; not a fan of the current model green dial
- 5970P
- 5372P (split second) 38.3 mm - would love to have this in blue
- 5204P (split second) 41 mm - looks great in black or the classic white
- 5271P (diamond encrusted) 41 mm - thought the diamonds/jewels look over the top
- 3970P 36 mm - pass on the tiny case
- 5951P - pass on the small square face

Questions:

1) Any other model I should consider, including recently discontinued ones?

2) Which are the current models that can be purchased from an AD? My understanding is a number of these are discontinued and can only be obtained from a gray market dealer

3) Assuming you are still saving up, when do you begin to build a relationship with an AD? Would you just walk into a store wearing the annual chrono and express interest in a perpetual chrono, but be honest and say you are not in a position to purchase this year?

4) When would you consider the gray market? Is it right that you might get your grail at 20% below retail?

5) How does the 5271 look in person? Does it inevitably draw too much attention to itself and does it have a loud presence?

6) Where are the prices of the relevant models right now? Any potential short term declines in price I should be aware of?

7) Any other advice?

[jon_jon]

There is a small market for these pieces due to their price range and the fact they are not hot watches you can flip for a profit.

My advice is to take the time to try all of these on for size and presence on your wrist. It will take time unless you can fly out to Geneva to try on the current model watches and then fly out to HK, London or other major cities with a large inventory of pre-owned PCCs in stock to try on.

I have tried on the 5271 before, but I am not a fan of diamonds on men's watches. I have tried on most of the others on the list and all of them are great pieces to try on if you can and then decide which one you like the best.

[Vasco]

That's a very nice project and the journey is worth being appreciated.

The more they are complicated, the more they require time to craft (and especially finish). I don't know where the line stands between obtainable and a really hard to get application piece (some are said on application from ADs but arrive pretty fast in the end). The discontinued are out of the "new" scope so easily available in grey if one has one. My believe would be the 5372P would be difficult if remaining purchasable from AD (last pieces?). Otherwise, the 5270P, 5204P should be rather easy to find (grey).

Of course, each AD's offer is unique as it depends on the client's wealth in the area.

1) Any other model I should consider, including recently discontinued ones? There is also the 5004P, only from grey (rarer than the next generation, 5204). And the cushion-shaped 5020P.

2) Which are the current models that can be purchased from an AD? 5270P green, 5204G green (no P), 5373P (but with crown on the left, maybe difficult to get?). It's worth asking for the recently discontinued ones as there can still be some left somewhere that your AD can ask Patek about (5270P Salmon, 5272P?).

It's a very nice purchase you can make at an AD, including eventually for you purchase history, but what matters a lot at such level is to have the one that really matches your tastes. A 5204P (black or silver) or a 5970P are definitely worth it.

3) Assuming you are still saving up, when do you begin to build a relationship with an AD? Would you just walk into a store wearing the annual chrono and express interest in a perpetual chrono, but be honest and say you are not in a position to purchase this year? The official position is that they even like when someone is starting low and discovering, then buying more and more complicated ones, on the long run. Patek may though prefer to favour wealthier clients for limited output watches. The fact you show you're not that "comfortable" may not serve you indeed. But, they surely leave room (at Salons) to "you", aside of the wallet deapth (may be different at ADs). Regarding ADs, in a case to case basis, some will probably only look at the financial side.

4) When would you consider the gray market? Is it right that you might get your grail at 20% below retail? It was, but it depends on the market's state at one given moment. Grey prices vary. 10 years ago most watches lost value as soon as you left the AD (even Nautilus and Aquanaut). Hence grey rebates. Limited run excepted of course. On the contrary, the last 5 years where good days for sellers. Some of the watches you mention (like 5970P) are really hot. More recent ones tend to be less so. Still, I think the market is cooling down, yet still higher than 10 years ago. The number of wealthy clients has increased significantly and may have changed the level of the market for a while. Nevertheless, we see some nice watches being affordable again on grey.
People didn't rush to get a 3970 7-8 years ago but, even then, the rare P was still at a nice price point. The J took the hit on grey (though compared to the original msrp, it shouldn't be that far, not taking inflation into account). So, again, on a case to case basis.

Ask yourself why do you want to get through the AD network (new, purchase history for something else in the future, like a Minute-repeater or a Nautilus at msrp...). But, still the result will depend on the other pool of clients of the said AD. Grey can offer like new/new and a better price when things cool down. Going grey at high price is only when you can't wait from AD's schedule.

The 5270P Salmon should be obtainable (grey), 5204P as well (grey), 5970P are rare and expensive.

I'll second Jon Jon, you should try them. A trip to Geneva would be perfect to see them all.

[ts3]

1) 5004 which is a grail for many apart from 5970.
2) Check the Patek website for current models. Anything not on there is discontinued.
3) I'd contact them when you have the funds. If you want a hot watch as well you might try to negotiate for a bundle and if not for a discount on the PCC.
6) Check the Patek website for MSRPs and Chrono24 for secondary market (deduct some percentage from the asking prices).
7) Personally I'd stay clear of any refs with a chin (some 5270s) or mini chin (5204) at the 6 o'clock position.

[RyanO]

Firstly congrats in advance, an exciting journey to embark on. If I may offer some inspiration for you, here’s a photo of my 5270p Salmon - may just be worth the hunt for a nice example on the grey market. I also believe they represent a decent value at current prices and are yet to be truly “appreciated”.




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[FrançoisCzapek]

Thanks so much for the thoughtful responses! Some more questions

0) Really love the salmon 5270P. I had a friend pass on one from an AD though because he thought the salmon was more pale than other salmon watch faces he had seen and didn't like it. I thought the Patek salmon faces from a couple of years ago were lovely but have not in fact seen a salmon 5270P.

2) Yes I found it slightly confusing to browse the Patek grand complications website and separate the grand complication chronographs from the perpetual chronographs and split second perpetual chronographs.

3) To restate my question, given buying a Patek perpetual chrono is probably the end of the main watch journey unless one decides he wants to go even further and get in line for the very grand complications. If these are not hot watches and options extend to discontinued models, then what is the benefit of buying what might be your final Patek from an AD, other than the possibility of pushing him to bundle it with a MSRP Nautilus? I don't see the benefit of a purchase history in this context. It's a real question given the models I am looking at might have been recently discontinued and I don't like the current options such as green faces. Would an AD discount a perpetual chrono?

8) I live in Singapore where there are multiple Patek and multibrand ADs. If you were to consider building a relationship with one for this perpetual chronograph purchase, how would you even choose one?

9) What is the difference between chasing a 5270P and a perpetual with a split second chronograph, other than the aesthetic?

10) This might be a stupid question but do Patek perpetual owners want a minute repeater in 2024? I appreciate chronographs despite not necesssarily using them daily, but I never understood getting a minute repeater outside appreciating the mechanical intricacy.

[rmlovett1]

Nothing of your interest is going to be easy or quick to get new from an AD. If you decide to “build a relationship” with an AD, a model you seek now that’s in production, may be discontinued while you wait (probably years).
Me personally, I’d do my homework myself, then find it in the market now vs waiting to MAYBE get it within yrs, or never at all.
You should do your diligence, narrow down what you REALLY want on your wrist from your choices.
At that point, If it’s in production now, build a relationship with an AD and possibly see one in yrs, maybe never see one….OR…. Go grey and have it within days depending on the model….
Time vs $$$

[FrançoisCzapek]

But these perpetuals are always in short supply and always above retail on the gray market?

[rmlovett1]

Originally Posted by FrançoisCzapek

But these perpetuals are always in short supply and always above retail on the gray market?

Depends on the model. I just received a new 5270J below retail.
You can get ideas on market prices on C24, that would be a starting point for prices new vs pre-owned and negotiating points.

[Calatrava r]

Originally Posted by FrançoisCzapek

But these perpetuals are always in short supply and always above retail on the gray market?

I bought my 5270J, used, for a good bit below retail. As someone said above, there is little demand for these watches given their price point and also a manual wind PC can become a bother over time for many people. Having said that supply is not abundant either, but good deals can found on the secondary market. I would buy new if you are looking to build a relationship with an AD and will keep the PCC. This is a watch you can get with some wait but should have a strong favorable impression on an AD over a Calatrava say.

[codecow]

Originally Posted by Calatrava r

I bought my 5270J, used, for a good bit below retail. As someone said above, there is little demand for these watches given their price point and also a manual wind PC can become a bother over time for many people. Having said that supply is not abundant either, but good deals can found on the secondary market. I would buy new if you are looking to build a relationship with an AD and will keep the PCC. This is a watch you can get with some wait but should have a strong favorable impression on an AD over a Calatrava say.

Yep J or G are both good value relative to MSRP, I mean even the RG 5720 on the bracelet.

Agreed on the PCC complication, it’s weird being manual wind and also PC/QP. I wouldn’t even bother to set the calendar if I had one because I definitely wouldn’t keep it wound.

[bobernet]

Originally Posted by codecow

Yep J or G are both good value relative to MSRP, I mean even the RG 5720 on the bracelet.

Agreed on the PCC complication, it’s weird being manual wind and also PC/QP. I wouldn’t even bother to set the calendar if I had one because I definitely wouldn’t keep it wound.

I was worried about the manual wind part of owning a 5270. It turned out not to be an issue at all. I wear mine regularly, so it’s never off by months, usually only days.

If it’s just a couple days, it’s easy enough to wind forward with the crown. If it’s off by more, a toothpick and a couple minutes has everything back on track. The settings are easy and intuitive.

An auto would ruin the movement architecture and the view. I’m really glad it doesn’t have a rotor obscuring the beautiful micro-engineering.

[FrançoisCzapek]

And would you just hold off on buying everything till you buy the perpetual chrono, not even a Nautilus etc.? Eyes on the prize?

[rmlovett1]

Originally Posted by FrançoisCzapek

And would you just hold off on buying everything till you buy the perpetual chrono, not even a Nautilus etc.? Eyes on the prize?

For me, it would depend on what else I had. I’d be picking the PP I would be very happy with, and fits the niche I’m trying to fill in my collection

[FrançoisCzapek]

Also, if you're in a large and competitive city with multiple ADs, how do you even choose an AD to build a relationship with, and how do you choose a SA there?

[FrançoisCzapek]

Let's say you at least had a good Calatrava as your first watch then a good complication, but no perpetual or grand complication yet. Maybe a couple lesser watches for fun.

Meaning no real collection to speak of, just someone who sets sights on his grail every few years, and not as a one and done retirement gift.

And I'm not sure the perpetual chrono fits a niche as much as anchors the entire collection!

[Ellz]

Love my 3970 :-)IMG_5483.jpeg

[FrançoisCzapek]

Legend!

[FrançoisCzapek]

I belatedly browsed photos from the Ambani wedding in India.

Would it be right to say that the "end game" (or at least the dream) for most people here who like classic faces would be the platinum model of a perpetual split second chrono (5204) or perpetual chrono (5270)? As a benchmark, the 5204P had a retail price of about $300,000. This is a good benchmark for how much you need to save up for this end game grail.

Beyond perpetual chronos, you're talking about minute repeaters and chiming watches which go over $1M. However, most people do not need a chiming watch with electricity and smartphones, and would use minute repeaters far less than chronographs (yes, every smart phone also has a stopwatch). So the platinum perpetual split second chrono is arguably the top of the range of what one might wear day to day.

Does this make sense as a way to think about grand complications and daydreams?

[FrançoisCzapek]

Which of these models are in the "high" grand complication category versus grand complication exactly? Does this make a big difference if buying gray?

[mooty]

Originally Posted by FrançoisCzapek

Which of these models are in the "high" grand complication category versus grand complication exactly? Does this make a big difference if buying gray?

537x
5024
5004
all above high grand comp



5270
5970
3970
grand comp

[FrançoisCzapek]

I missed the 5372. How does this compare to the 5004 and 5204?

I'm now understand the small runs of the 5004.

[FrançoisCzapek]

Why isn’t the 5372P more talked about?

[codecow]

For a PCC I’d skip the AD and get it second hand/gray. Prices are not bad.

[WatchEater666]

Many go below MSRP used.

I wouldn’t bother with an AD unless you really want a lot of watches from them from other brands they carry.

Also I think it’s worth considering the 36mm, they look really really good and “right” IMO. Maybe buy a 36mm watch, like a vintage piece or something and wear it for a week first then try the 36mm pp. it might feel more “right”.

[FrançoisCzapek]

I like 39-40 but definitely appreciate 36-38mm dress watches

[FrançoisCzapek]

Does it make any sense in the short term to buy a perpetual calendar chronograph via AD?

Just noting that let's assume the AD agrees to sell you a Nautilus 5990 1A (steel) at the same time as or shortly after you purchase a 5270P perpetual calendar, it would likely still be cheaper to purchase these two on the gray market. Arguably, it would only make strict financial sense if you negotiate this purchase and put yourself in the queue for double grand complications and very rare pieces after this purchase. (Most on this forum would quit at this point or long before.)

[Calatrava r]

Originally Posted by FrançoisCzapek

Does it make any sense in the short term to buy a perpetual calendar chronograph via AD?

Just noting that let's assume the AD agrees to sell you a Nautilus 5990 1A (steel) at the same time as or shortly after you purchase a 5270P perpetual calendar, it would likely still be cheaper to purchase these two on the gray market. Arguably, it would only make strict financial sense if you negotiate this purchase and put yourself in the queue for double grand complications and very rare pieces after this purchase. (Most on this forum would quit at this point or long before.)

Check out the values on used PCCs online. It makes the most sense to buy from an AD if relationship building is important. If you are working a bundle on a hyped-up piece and the PCC helps you to get there, you are doing well.

[codecow]

It probably doesn’t help being in Singapore, I thought that was one of the tougher markets?

[FrançoisCzapek]

I swear there's at least one AD in town with a yellow gold 5270 on display.