Are you ok with "Swiss made" watches having Chinese-made parts?

[Cru Jones]

Following a recent thread in the Omega section, I thought to have a general discussion....

The situation: you are contemplating a new watch that qualifies as "Swiss made" under Swiss manufacturing rules, but it turns out that some parts are made in China (for example, the watch case, the bracelet and/or the sapphire glass).

So, what do you think about this? Will you still buy the watch?

Reply to the poll and share your (non-political, please) thoughts below.

[ChetBaker]

Nope. There’s many reasons why I would not but primarily it would be for China’s manufacturing reputation for mass produced, low cost and low quality.

[Cru Jones]

Originally Posted by ChetBaker

Nope. China’s manufacturing reputation is for mass produced low cost and low quality. [....] Buy local.

Thanks for contributing, but I think this is an interesting question and hope to keep politics out of this thread or getting this thread locked....

[ChetBaker]

Originally Posted by Cru Jones

Thanks for contributing, but I think this is an interesting question and hope to keep politics out of this thread or getting this thread locked....

Question clarified - my response edited. Thanks.

[Cru Jones]

Originally Posted by ChetBaker

Question clarified - my response edited. Thanks.

[Cru Jones]

Originally Posted by 1William

I prefer if something says it is made in a place that is where it is made. No Swiss Made and parts from China.

Originally Posted by brandrea

This is a very interesting question.

As an owner of brand that’s rumored to have parts or materials sourced from China, I’d be lying if I said I wasn’t a bit disappointed.

I guess my preference would be that a Swiss made watch would be made 100% in Switzerland and parts not sourced elsewhere.

I’m certain there is a huge rabbit hole of things that “could” come from outside the country in other brands if you go deep enough… but the main components like bracelets, cases, etc …. Yes I think I’d prefer knowing they are produced in Switzerland.

This is where I'm at, too.... But, I really wish we could have clarity on this question, other than if more than 60% comes from Switzerland, it's "Swiss made".

I mean, if everyone but Patek source significant parts from China, then that's the reality and it isn't much of an issue (IMHO).

[dakkonmc]

Originally Posted by ChetBaker

Nope. There’s many reasons why I would not but primarily it would be for China’s manufacturing reputation for mass produced, low cost and low quality.

That's such a ridiculous take

China is currently the biggest manufacturer in the world. They can produce high-end products and cheap products. IPhone is almost 60% in the market share in the US. I think most of us would agree that iPhone is considered a higher-end product.

I hope more watch brands utilize the best possible supplier to help them make the best watch. Inside or outside of Switzerland.

[ChetBaker]

Originally Posted by dakkonmc

That's such a ridiculous take

China is currently the biggest manufacturer in the world. They can produce high-end products and cheap products. IPhone is almost 60% in the market share in the US. I think most of us would agree that iPhone is considered a higher-end product.

I hope more watch brands utilize the best possible supplier to help them make the best watch. Inside or outside of Switzerland.

Sure they can produce high-end products, but that’s not what their reputation is for. And a single example of a higher-end product does nothing to take away the literally tens of thousands of cheap, low quality stuff they’re pushing out across the world. The EU has been suffering from years of extremely cheap Chinese products flooding our markets, and we’re now finally trying to turn the tide by introducing tax measures to make these imports less attractive. I think this is a great thing.

[dakkonmc]

Originally Posted by ChetBaker

Sure they can produce high-end products, but that’s not what their reputation is for. And a single example of a higher-end product does nothing to take away the literally tens of thousands of cheap, low quality stuff they’re pushing out across the world. The EU has been suffering from years of extremely cheap Chinese products flooding our markets, and we’re now finally trying to turn the tide by introducing tax measures to make these imports less attractive. I think this is a great thing.

They do produce a lot of inexpensive product and flood the market with cheap good. There has been many anti-dumping measures in the US as well. That doesn't mean they're not capable of making high-end products. At this point 80% of EV battery and solar panel comes from China.

If the manufacturer wants high-end product in China they can produce it. Last year for CEO said he's been driving a Chinese Ev as his personal car and said. He doesn't want to give it up and they are years ahead of us in the US in producing EV.

I think people are too serious when it come to Swiss made. It is just a marketing gimmick. My last two high end Swiss made watch had to be serviced multiple times within the first year...

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by dakkonmc

I think people are too serious when it come to Swiss made.

Dufour may agree, as would quite a few other watchmakers not located in Switzerland.

Many love Swiss timepieces, sure, yet watchmaker talent is not 'only' located within Switzerland. Back in the day, the USA made some of the very best pocket watches. Yes, America hand-crafted truly exquisite decorated and highly accurate timepieces. America may have been #1 :)

Craftmanship is human, and while the Swiss have longstanding commercial marketing, the world has many talented watchmakers. Believe that

[ajw45]

Originally Posted by ChetBaker

Sure they can produce high-end products, but that’s not what their reputation is for. And a single example of a higher-end product does nothing to take away the literally tens of thousands of cheap, low quality stuff they’re pushing out across the world. The EU has been suffering from years of extremely cheap Chinese products flooding our markets, and we’re now finally trying to turn the tide by introducing tax measures to make these imports less attractive. I think this is a great thing.

Soooooo... yes. But, frankly, it's due to the Western demands and preferences. We both agree that China can produce quality items but they are more know for producing cheap crap. They are known for producing cheap crap because that's what we (western world) wants. They make fake watches because we buy them. The quality of a lot of their products are shoddy because western brands go there and ask for the cheapest widget possible not the best and they'll ask 20 different suppliers for bids. It's like America blaming Mexico for all the illegal drugs coming in even though Americans are the ones with open wallets buying the drugs. We drive the demand, don't blame the suppliers. If we all only bought high quality items and voted with our wallets, China wouldn't be making crap to export to us.

This kills me because for my business I'm always trying to deliver the best for my customers and it's tough. Often times our suppliers in China will cut corners or deliver mediocre items because they assume we don't want to spend more for higher quality/complexity and they don't want to lose our business by increasing prices. We are always having to set higher standards with them not because they can't do better but because it costs more so if you don't specifically ask they aren't going to voluntarily add cost. But if you do ask for thing, no problem, it gets done well just at a higher cost. They have been trained over decades of industrialization by western companies to constantly drive costs down. China is a young industrialized economy grown out of demand by western economies for the absolute cheapest of everything. In a previous life I worked for one of the big luxury groups, we worked our vendors for every penny so I both participated in this training of Chinese suppliers and now I'm suffering for it.

Saying the EU is suffering because of cheap Chinese goods is classic political maneuvering and manipulation to push the blame elsewhere. Yes the Chinese do have some unfair trade practices more in some categories and industries than others which should be addressed but this is not something they did to the EU, it's something the EU drank up and now are looking for who to blame when the hangover sets in. I don't mean this to be specifically an EU thing, it's happening in many countries and of course most of us are not thinking about the impact of geopolitics and globalization on the future economy when we hit buy now for that $2 can opener on Amazon, rather I'm just pointing out there's a push pull effect here, all sides participated in creating this dynamic.

[rajurama]

Originally Posted by dakkonmc

That's such a ridiculous take

China is currently the biggest manufacturer in the world. They can produce high-end products and cheap products. IPhone is almost 60% in the market share in the US. I think most of us would agree that iPhone is considered a higher-end product.

I hope more watch brands utilize the best possible supplier to help them make the best watch. Inside or outside of Switzerland.

Iphone , Tesla , other 90% of consumer products are accepted made in china or asia but you really think an official Rolex / Omega or any 'Swiss' origin brand even though same quality but Made in China/or anywhere other than Swiss will ever be accepted? I doubt hence we have this thread and majority of mechanical watch buyers would want their watch to be made in Switzerland as thats deep rooted connection with this hobby.

I would want the brand origin and manufacture from same country it could be Switzerland, China or Japan.

[Cru Jones]

Originally Posted by dakkonmc

I hope more watch brands utilize the best possible supplier to help them make the best watch. Inside or outside of Switzerland.

That’s fine. So long as those who source outside of Switzerland don’t slap “Swiss Made” on the dial. ;-)

[ChetBaker]

Edited.

[brandrea]

I think the question is crystal clear and agree we should keep politics out of it.

[1William]

I prefer if something says it is made in a place that is where it is made. No Swiss Made and parts from China.

[brandrea]

This is a very interesting question.

As an owner of brand that’s rumored to have parts or materials sourced from China, I’d be lying if I said I wasn’t a bit disappointed.

I guess my preference would be that a Swiss made watch would be made 100% in Switzerland and parts not sourced elsewhere.

I’m certain there is a huge rabbit hole of things that “could” come from outside the country in other brands if you go deep enough… but the main components like bracelets, cases, etc …. Yes I think I’d prefer knowing they are produced in Switzerland.

[GB-man]

No

[winst]

It certainly is interesting, and begs the question are these watches Swiss ‘Made’ or is a more accurate description Swiss ‘Assembled’.

[adamegret]

It depends on the pricing. If they use parts from China that are cheaper, then I would want them to pass the cost savings onto me as well. So if they were using Chinese parts from the start, the MSRP should be lower from the beginning. If they switch from all or mostly Swiss parts but keep the same price, then we have a problem.

[omar-rye]

"Swiss Made" doesn’t mean all parts and/or raw materials are sourced from or made in Switzerland. We’re talking about things like screws here. Some of Omega’s bracelet parts could be made in Asia (not confirmed), and the leather straps on a Patek are made in Italy, yet both are still Swiss Made. Do you think the diamonds Rolex uses were mined in Switzerland? What about the meteorite? Any buyer should know that there’s a chance up to 39% of their Swiss Made watch was sourced from somewhere else - even if it's a Rolex.

[Cru Jones]

Originally Posted by omar-rye

"Swiss Made" doesn’t mean all parts and/or raw materials are sourced from or made in Switzerland. We’re talking about things like screws here. Some of Omega’s bracelet parts could be made in Asia (not confirmed), and the leather straps on a Patek are made in Italy, yet both are still Swiss Made. Do you think the diamonds Rolex uses were mined in Switzerland? What about the meteorite? Any buyer should know that there’s a chance up to 39% of their Swiss Made watch was sourced from somewhere else - even if it's a Rolex.

I think a distinction can be made between screws, diamonds and leather straps, and watch cases, metal bracelets and clasps (the former being less of an issue than the latter).

Considering watches don't cost a lot to manufacture (relative to their price), allowing 39% of costs attributable to manufacturing (not even the source material, like gold) to come from outside of Switzerland allows for a very wide range of watch parts to come from a place like China.

As for leather straps being made in France or Italy, those countries have a long history of producing luxurious leather goods (more so than Switzerland), so I'm not surprised that Patek would source their straps from those countries. I would however be surprised if my €80k Patek has a leather strap manufactured in Wuhan or Saigon, for example.

[Bazil]

Toblerone chocolate will no longer feature the distinctive Matterhorn mountain peak on its packaging in order to avoid violating a Swiss law that protects national symbols, as the brand's owner shifts some production out of Switzerland.
As Swiss heritage, I’m very protective over this, to be precise, question states ‘Swiss-Made’, therefore if Swiss Made then everything should be Swiss …

[Cru Jones]

Here is what qualifies a watch as being "Swiss made" according to the the Federation of the Swiss Watch Industry FH (https://www.fhs.swiss/eng/whoweare.html):

"Art. 1a Definition of the Swiss watch

A watch is to be regarded as a Swiss watch if:

a. its technical development has taken place in Switzerland;

1. in the case of exclusively mechanical watches, at least the mechanical
construction and prototyping of the watch as a whole,

2. in the case of watches that are not exclusively mechanical, at least the
mechanical construction and prototyping of the watch as a whole, together
with the conception of the printed circuit or circuits, the display and the
software;

a bis. its movement is Swiss;

b. its movement has been cased up in Switzerland;

c. final inspection by the manufacturer took place in Switzerland and

d. at least 60% of the manufacturing costs is generated in Switzerland"

(https://www.fhs.swiss/file/8/Guide_FH_v.5_en.pdf)

[Cru Jones]

(duplicate post)

[Cru Jones]

Originally Posted by Cru Jones

Here is what qualifies a watch as being "Swiss made" according to the the Federation of the Swiss Watch Industry FH (https://www.fhs.swiss/eng/whoweare.html):

"Art. 1a Definition of the Swiss watch

A watch is to be regarded as a Swiss watch if:

a. its technical development has taken place in Switzerland;

1. in the case of exclusively mechanical watches, at least the mechanical
construction and prototyping of the watch as a whole,

2. in the case of watches that are not exclusively mechanical, at least the
mechanical construction and prototyping of the watch as a whole, together
with the conception of the printed circuit or circuits, the display and the
software;

a bis. its movement is Swiss;

b. its movement has been cased up in Switzerland;

c. final inspection by the manufacturer took place in Switzerland and

d. at least 60% of the manufacturing costs is generated in Switzerland"

(https://www.fhs.swiss/file/8/Guide_FH_v.5_en.pdf)

When reading the definition, the reference to “its movement is Swiss” is interesting…. The definition does not require the movement’s parts, or even the entire movement, to be made in Switzerland. Only that the movement is “Swiss” (whatever that means….I guess at least its design or history?), that the movement be put in the watch case and inspected in Switzerland and that the watch’s total manufacturing cost be at least 60% Swiss.

“Swiss made” really feels like pure marketing blah blah blah…..

Oh well. As they say, one should learn something new each day. That one thing doesn’t have to necessarily be a positive thing.

I just feel bad that it took me so many years of following watches to only learn this now.

I really wish we had a better vision of which watchmakers do what vis-a-vis “Swiss made”. What do Rolex, Omega, JLC, Patek, AP, VC, IWC, Cartier, Breitling, Breguet, Panerai, the expensive independents, etc. etc. etc. do?

[BraveBold]

I will point out that if 39% of COST is from China, it would likely be majority “Chinese made” by any practical interpretation.

Because Chinese costs will be a small fraction of Swiss costs per unit of “item” produced… for example, from a labor perspective it might mean 100 hrs of Chinese labor to 5 hours (or less) Swiss.

That said, the proof is largely in the pudding… and for Rolex the bulk of costs are likely from things that (at least for what we’d value) could be done efficiently in Switzerland (machining / tooling)… and if those rules are “AND” then also the design is predominantly Swiss. Rolex quality still suggests it is truly Swiss made.

Other brands, well, there is probably more variability than many would like to admit. But from a marketing perspective it goes beyond the label, and supply chain control gets tricky and reproductions harder to discern… so my informed but imperfect guess is Rolex is maintaining far more than 60% of costs (and components as FINISHED goods, not raw) domestic.

Originally Posted by Cru Jones

Here is what qualifies a watch as being "Swiss made" according to the the Federation of the Swiss Watch Industry FH (https://www.fhs.swiss/eng/whoweare.html):

"Art. 1a Definition of the Swiss watch

A watch is to be regarded as a Swiss watch if:

a. its technical development has taken place in Switzerland;

1. in the case of exclusively mechanical watches, at least the mechanical
construction and prototyping of the watch as a whole,

2. in the case of watches that are not exclusively mechanical, at least the
mechanical construction and prototyping of the watch as a whole, together
with the conception of the printed circuit or circuits, the display and the
software;

a bis. its movement is Swiss;

b. its movement has been cased up in Switzerland;

c. final inspection by the manufacturer took place in Switzerland and

d. at least 60% of the manufacturing costs is generated in Switzerland"

(https://www.fhs.swiss/file/8/Guide_FH_v.5_en.pdf)

[Cru Jones]

So.............if 39% of the manufacturing costs are from outside of Switzerland (China, for example), the watch is "Swiss made" according to the Swiss industry, and can have "Swiss made" written on the dial.

Whether or not, as a consumer, a "luxury" "Swiss watch" having 39% of the manufacturing costs coming from China feels "luxury" is up to the consumer.

I know what I think....

[brandrea]

Originally Posted by omar-rye

"Swiss Made" doesn’t mean all parts and/or raw materials are sourced from or made in Switzerland. We’re talking about things like screws here. Some of Omega’s bracelet parts could be made in Asia (not confirmed), and the leather straps on a Patek are made in Italy, yet both are still Swiss Made. Do you think the diamonds Rolex uses were mined in Switzerland? What about the meteorite? Any buyer should know that there’s a chance up to 39% of their Swiss Made watch was sourced from somewhere else - even if it's a Rolex.

Originally Posted by Cru Jones

So.............if 39% of the manufacturing costs are from outside of Switzerland (China, for example), the watch is "Swiss made" according to the Swiss industry, and can have "Swiss made" written on the dial.

Whether or not, as a consumer, a "luxury" "Swiss watch" having 39% of the manufacturing costs coming from China feels "luxury" is up to the consumer.

I know what I think....

Thanks for trying to make me feel better

[Paul C]

What top-tier watch brands do this?