Gronefeld Principia discontinued?

[jcarm981]

Website says that is the case. Anybody know what is going on? Refresh for 2025?

[notknifescience]

Edit: never mind, it says it when you click through to the Principia

[Gebbeth]

Does it really matter when it's almost impossible to get one direct from them anyway?

[ap1]

Hype is gone on these, secondary is the way

[WatchEater666]

They're selling for way less than retail now. I've seen a few on moda in the 20s from reputable sellers.

Very nice watches IMO. The case is AWESOME, same with the hands and indices.

[notknifescience]

I've always been thinking about getting one of these and might finally pull the trigger. Think this increases prices for them?

[WatchEater666]

Originally Posted by notknifescience

I've always been thinking about getting one of these and might finally pull the trigger. Think this increases prices for them?

no

[GB-man]

Originally Posted by notknifescience

I've always been thinking about getting one of these and might finally pull the trigger. Think this increases prices for them?

Watch market 2025

[GB-man]

Correct. I can think of better ways to waste 20k in the Netherlands

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by GB-man

I can think of better ways to waste 20k in the Netherlands

[Bearxj86]

Generally speaking it's a good time to go grey on these. I wouldn't get it at retail

[Gebbeth]

I can’t be the only one thinking the watch is rather plain for it to command that kind of price at retail.

Nicely made watch, but honestly did not know what the big deal was.

[GB-man]

Originally Posted by Gebbeth

I can’t be the only one thinking the watch is rather plain for it to command that kind of price at retail.

Nicely made watch, but honestly did not know what the big deal was.

I think it was like 30k euro on release…then price crept up.

[Calatrava r]

The hype on the brand was amazing. Dress watches, overall, are definitely feeling the softening watch market.

[GB-man]

Originally Posted by Calatrava r

The hype on the brand was amazing. Dress watches, overall, are definitely feeling the softening watch market.

Except journe where it’s the opposite. Sports watches no love. Dress watches lots.

[dchang81]

The thing that I don't get is are they that behind that the order books have been closed for 2.5 years? Id get it if all their models are selling for crazy money, but in this case principias are going for nearly half off...id be interested but at the same time makes me wonder the longevity of the brand

[Ichiran]

Not just Journe but the likes of Akrivia, Rexhep Rexhepi, Roger Smith, Philippe Dufour, Simon Brette, Petermann Bedat, Sylvain Pinaud, Remy Cools, Kari Voutilainen, Raul Pages, Vincent Deprez etc are experiencing the opposite of softening. Their watches are so hard to get and mostly only seen in high profile auctions.

[WatchEater666]

Originally Posted by Ichiran

Not just Journe but the likes of Akrivia, Rexhep Rexhepi, Roger Smith, Philippe Dufour, Simon Brette, Petermann Bedat, Sylvain Pinaud, Remy Cools, Kari Voutilainen, Raul Pages, Vincent Deprez etc are experiencing the opposite of softening. Their watches are so hard to get and mostly only seen in high profile auctions.

Demand for a lot of those brands has fallen a lot. Roger Smith down in auctions and I've seen voutilainen go cheaper than 2021/2022 recently via moda. Not sure this is accurate.

[Ichiran]

Originally Posted by WatchEater666

Demand for a lot of those brands has fallen a lot. Roger Smith down in auctions and I've seen voutilainen go cheaper than 2021/2022 recently via moda. Not sure this is accurate.

Not true. I don't think you are following any of these brands enough.

[WatchEater666]

Originally Posted by Ichiran

Not true. I don't think you are following any of these brands enough.

Edit: Nvm will let you eat glue

[vliberman]

Originally Posted by Ichiran

Not true. I don't think you are following any of these brands enough.

Demand has fallen, supply still limited. You are both right in a way. Auctions are back to being poor indicators of real market price, just like pre COVID.

[Ichiran]

Originally Posted by vliberman

Demand has fallen, supply still limited. You are both right in a way. Auctions are back to being poor indicators of real market price, just like pre COVID.

Supply is always limited for these artisanal independents due to the hours involved, but yet from my own frustrating hunt for these watches, I do think demand has increased exponentially for these artisanal independents over the past years. I have been trying ever harder (establishing contacts, attend more events, flew to greet in person, etc) and yet I can't get most of these watches. It's well documented in the past you can get these artisanal watches easily from the likes of Dufour, Smith and Akrivia. It's impossible now. The train has left.

Re auctions, there are less of these artisanal watches than the likes 1518 and 2499 in every auction. They are the first thing I look out for in every catalogue.

[ajw45]

Originally Posted by Ichiran

Not true. I don't think you are following any of these brands enough.

I don't know about the others but certainly Dufour and Smith which were auction royalty have come down quite a bit. Prices are still crazy but they've gone from 7 figures to 6 figures so it's not nothing burger. Voutilainen has come down too, more I think there was a spike in the observatoires, the modern watches a little less up and down.

[WatchEater666]

Originally Posted by ajw45

I don't know about the others but certainly Dufour and Smith which were auction royalty have come down quite a bit. Prices are still crazy but they've gone from 7 figures to 6 figures so it's not nothing burger. Voutilainen has come down too, more I think there was a spike in the observatoires, the modern watches a little less up and down.

Vout has 100% dropped. I can see it in Moda too. Like you said - auction results for the others have tanked too.

Ichiran, given you aren't in Moda, I don't think you really have a good grasp of pricing. It's far more accurate than anything else out there.

[Ichiran]

Originally Posted by ajw45

I don't know about the others but certainly Dufour and Smith which were auction royalty have come down quite a bit. Prices are still crazy but they've gone from 7 figures to 6 figures so it's not nothing burger. Voutilainen has come down too, more I think there was a spike in the observatoires, the modern watches a little less up and down.

Let me share the other artisanal watches' results then.

Akrivia
AK-06 (Christie's Nov 2023) - HKD 5,292,000 (MSRP S$138,000)
AK-01 (Christie's Nov 2023) - HKD 4,788,000 (MSRP S$273,000)
AK-05 (Phillips May 2024) - CHF 635,000 (MSRP S$248,000)
AK-01 (Phillips Nov 2024) - CHF 1,079,500 (MSRP S$273,000)

Rexhep Rexhepi
RRCC01 (Phillips May 2023) - HKD 7,239,000 (MSRP CHF 57,500)
RRCC01 (Phillips Nov 2023) - HKD 6,985,000 (MSRP CHF 57,500)
RRCC01 (Phillips May 2024) - CHF 1,155,700 (MSRP CHF 57,500)

Petermann Bedat
1967 (Phillips Nov 2024) - CHF 215,900 (MSRP CHF 59,800)

Sylvain Pinaud
Origine (Phillips Nov 2024) - CHF 165,100 (MSRP CHF 65,000)

The likes of Simon Brette, Raul Pages, Vincent Deprez and Remy Cools haven't been auctioned before except for their unique piece which will not be discussed here. Given how difficult to get an allocation of these watches, and they are rare/have interior angles/interesting designs/less than 40mm, their value should be in the ballpark above.

I'm also expecting all future AK, RRCC2, PB 2941, SBCA Souscription, Auffret Tourbillon à Paris, RP1, Krayon Métiers d'Art Azur, etc, to do well in high profile auctions.

[Ichiran]

In my view the formula to success is increase the degree of hand-finishing, limit production to no more than 30 per year, create an interesting dial design, appear in numerous watch channels, and let influencers do the rest.

FP Journe is taking another route but he can because of his charismatic Resonance and early Tourbillon.

[GB-man]

You can’t make real money producing 30 watches per year. It’s hard for me to entertain any brand with such production levels but I do understand it’s the world of micro indies.

[Ichiran]

Originally Posted by GB-man

You can’t make real money producing 30 watches per year. It’s hard for me to entertain any brand with such production levels but I do understand it’s the world of micro indies.

Rarity, interior angles and collectability.

[GB-man]

Originally Posted by Ichiran

Rarity, interior angles and collectability.

I understand the joy that brings a collector I just don’t understand it as much as a business. I won’t rehash the interior angle obsession lol I understand why it’s loved.

[Ichiran]

Originally Posted by GB-man

I understand the joy that brings a collector I just don’t understand it as much as a business. I won’t rehash the interior angle obsession lol I understand why it’s loved.

PD sells 7 watches a year at CHF 640k each. He has very low overheads and no staff. I would say it's a very comfortable lifestyle for him due to the low output and having CHF 4.4m to spend on his recreation and cigars. Not bad at all.