Bought Rolex but received Empty Box--HELP

[breitlings]

Originally Posted by cda555

I record ALL THE TIME at my post office. Nobody has ever told me I couldn’t. Maybe because I go quite frequently and am just an ultra polite person in general. This applies to the post office by my house and my job. I also recorded fine at the post office by my parents’ house.

I do too. I do the final packaging at the USPS store record it all until it is dropped off and let the buyer know politely it was done if they have any issues in terms of the shipping.

[dmash]

Originally Posted by Abdullah71601

Bad logic. Even worse suggestions. You aren’t helping.

I think it best we give the seller time to work the investigation. Too many vigilanties here trying to justify skewering one party or the other. Everybody here wants instant gratification on an outcome, but it will likely be weeks before the seller is comfortable with the result of the investigation.

There’s no time limit on disputing a wire transaction, so the OP has the option to be patient.

This is cute, as it's exactly what I suggested, not refunding immediately and CERTAINLY not hiring a lawyer prior to this investigation panning out.......and it resulted in your saying I had 'whack' opinion and that you would never buy something from a seller like me Oh, and I think that's before you also improperly accused me of slandering the OP as well.

I'll take a page out of your book and say 'how.........responds when something goes wrong defines their character.' I guess you're the type of person who can't admit when they wrongly accuse people of things, not to mention your entire negative opinion towards me, based on what it now seems you agree with.

[breitlings]

Originally Posted by dmash

Sorry but you have no case. Don’t know what you’re expecting. You could just as easily be scamming the seller, as he could be scamming you or the package was stolen by a 3rd party. No way this would be decided in your favor in court, it’s all his word against yours. Also, IMO, that’s sort of a silly way to go about things anyways, as all you’re doing is pissing off the guy who’s trying to get the refund for you as quick as possible.

If this was Paypal, sure they’d find in your favor and you’d win. In an actual court of law? Absolutely not. An entire waste of money if you ask me.

He paid for steak and didn't get the steak. I think I would be inclined to hear this case, and tell the seller to sue UPS and the UPS Store if I were presiding, unless the buyer knew and told the seller to use that exact shipping method. But I am not a lawyer, yet, much less a judge.

[dmash]

Originally Posted by breitlings

He paid for steak and didn't get the steak. I think I would be inclined to hear this case, and tell the seller to sue UPS and the UPS Store if I were presiding. But I am not a lawyer, yet, much less a judge.

That could be a possibility, definitely. The comment you're quoting, was me saying he has no case against the *seller*. There's no way that will pan out and no judge would find beyond a reasonable doubt, simply on the OP's word, that the seller scammed him, with all the sets of hands who touched the package after him, including his apartment complex. He could definitely try and sue UPS (hell, if they decline the insurance claim, just the threat of a lawsuit might actually get them to reverse the decision), I agree. However, as I've reiterated multiple times, that's incredibly dumb to try and pursue, prior to an investigation concluding where he might get paid out to begin with.

[kingSubTT]

Originally Posted by dmash

That could be a possibility, definitely. The comment you're quoting, was me saying he has no case against the *seller*. There's no way that will pan out and no judge would find beyond a reasonable doubt, simply on the OP's word, that the seller scammed him, with all the sets of hands who touched the package after him, including his apartment complex. He could definitely try and sue UPS (hell, if they decline the insurance claim, just the threat of a lawsuit might actually get them to reverse the decision), I agree. However, as I've reiterated multiple times, that's incredibly dumb to try and pursue, prior to an investigation concluding where he might get paid out to begin with.

Threat of lawsuit doesn't work against big companies. They have lawyers on their payroll. Couple of years back BMW USA refuse to fix my moonroof for free. I got a lawyer sent a demand notice. They still refused. After that I actually paid court costs and start the lawsuit. Then they settled with me. Keep in mind, it was only $2k to fix moon roof. Here we are taking $7-8k. No way in hell UPS or insurance is going to pay any of this.

[dmash]

Originally Posted by kingSubTT

Threat of lawsuit doesn't work against big companies. They have lawyers on their payroll. Couple of years back BMW USA refuse to fix my moonroof for free. I got a lawyer sent a demand notice. They still refused. After that I actually paid court costs and start the lawsuit. Then they settled with me. Keep in mind, it was only $2k to fix moon roof. Here we are taking $7-8k. No way in hell UPS or insurance is going to pay any of this.

Yeah, that’s actually a good point. Perhaps it would work against the UPS store branch though? But again, there is no proof here of anything.

[Abdullah71601]

Originally Posted by 77T

It’s only a rough situation for both parties IF a 3rd party took the watch.

I agree this will take a long time.

Only a full insurance reimbursement would make the buyer whole again.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Agree. The seller isn’t a watch monger, just a guy selling his watch. He has no incentive to be out of pocket for the refund before the claim has been resolved.

As much as it sucks, the OP needs to be patient. Both sides should retain counsel though. Knowing your rights and remedies with the shipper and others will ensure this gets resolved amicably.

[helo008]

Originally Posted by crazymcmichael

Why did buyer not accept to come and get the watch? Yes,, the story about car in garage, can you show prove of that

Michael,

I'd be happy to upload a copy of the receipt I receive when my car returns from repairs. However, the main reason I decided to go with shipping is that I didn't want to have to wait a week to get my car back and then drive a 3 hour round trip to pick up a watch, when I could have it arrive the next morning. I feel like most members here can understand the anticipation for a new watch, and I just didn't want to have to wait so long and go through all that work when it can simply show up at my place.

Originally Posted by crazymcmichael

if seller wanted to cherrish hisself with a new watch, as a cherry on top of the cake or so, why sell the first Rolex? Do you have prove from the other dealer that u where looking to trade it in???

That was me, I think you meant to say buyer instead of seller. I liked it more but didn't think it was worth the ~$4,500 premium to keep both. I do have email records with Jacek at HQ Milton in San Francisco containing our negotiations for the price of the sale.

Originally Posted by crazymcmichael

the card on the photo showed, is this corresponding with the one u got in the box??

As far as I can tell, yes.

Originally Posted by crazymcmichael

also the one who didnt accept the f2f offer is the more suspicious party in my opinion as he probably allready known to make his tric worthless

That would be me. I would firstly like to point out that when the seller brought up the F2F offer, it was more of an idea mentioned in passing, not something he emphasized or encouraged in any way. I don't think either of us believed there were any issues with shipping insured overnight.

Furthermore, as I mentioned above, I didn't want to or see the need to wait a week only to drive 3 hours round trip to pick up the watch, when so many watches are bought and sold via insured courier on this forum all the time. Sure, maybe in hindsight it would have avoided all these issues, but none of my friends who have bought watches and had them shipped have had these issues, and I innocuously assumed the same.

Originally Posted by crazymcmichael

i would be happy to see a face photo of both of you,, i see these things very very very quickly namely

I don't think this would be helpful in any way.

[sbardy69]

Risky business all around. By no means would I ever send someone that type of money.... The risk for reward of saving a little money is not worth it.

[Abdullah71601]

Originally Posted by helo008

Michael,

I'd be happy to upload a copy of the receipt I receive when my car returns from repairs. However, the main reason I decided to go with shipping is that I didn't want to have to wait a week to get my car back and then drive a 3 hour round trip to pick up a watch, when I could have it arrive the next morning. I feel like most members here can understand the anticipation for a new watch, and I just didn't want to have to wait so long and go through all that work when it can simply show up at my place.



That was me, I think you meant to say buyer instead of seller. I liked it more but didn't think it was worth the ~$4,500 premium to keep both. I do have email records with Jacek at HQ Milton in San Francisco containing our negotiations for the price of the sale.



As far as I can tell, yes.



That would be me. I would firstly like to point out that when the seller brought up the F2F offer, it was more of an idea mentioned in passing, not something he emphasized or encouraged in any way. I don't think either of us believed there were any issues with shipping insured overnight.

Furthermore, as I mentioned above, I didn't want to or see the need to wait a week only to drive 3 hours round trip to pick up the watch, when so many watches are bought and sold via insured courier on this forum all the time. Sure, maybe in hindsight it would have avoided all these issues, but none of my friends who have bought watches and had them shipped have had these issues, and I innocuously assumed the same.



I don't think this would be helpful in any way.

You are polite to respond, but his post was a collection of unsubstantiated drivel, and not worth the time to type your response.

F2F is dangerous as well. Robberies happen in those. There’s nothing wrong with shipping the watch. Most online transactions are conducted that way.

I think you and the seller would be wise to step away for some time. Post updates when you know something new, but stay out of the fray on this thread.

[helo008]

Originally Posted by southtexas

was the word ‘Rolex’ written on the label? USA sellers/shippers (shipping within USA)—do NOT ever disclose what’s in the box on any labeling. ParcelPro codes it as “precision instrument” and they actually don’t allow you to use the word “watch” or brand name in your label (domestic or international).

southtexas,

The word "rolex"(sic) was written on the shipping receipt but not on the label. I'm assuming this means that the seller told the employees at the UPS store as they printed the label and receipt. That means that other than the employees in the UPS store at the time, there were no individuals along the way who knew what was in that package.

[cda555]

If UPS denies the claim, does that mean the buyer is out of luck? If a buyer has to assume the risk of being scammed by a seller, then the seller should assume the risk of shipping to a buyer. In this scenario, the buyer is not assuming any risk... he has the money. As I said before, good sellers have multiple lines of insurance. I would never ship a watch without two forms of insurance via my home owners and through the shipping company. Others sellers have mentioned they also have insurance on top of the shipping company's offering. In my opinion, if you are not ready to offer the buyer his money back in this instance, you should only sell in person. According to other people in this the thread the only good outcome would be if UPS paid out the claim. Barring that, the seller can just keep the money? No, he would still be required to pay the buyer back. So what is the difference between paying the buyer now, or then?

[City74]

Originally Posted by Abdullah71601

You are polite to respond, but his post was a collection of unsubstantiated drivel, and not worth the time to type your response.

F2F is dangerous as well. Robberies happen in those. There’s nothing wrong with shipping the watch. Most online transactions are conducted that way.

I think you and the seller would be wise to step away for some time. Post updates when you know something new, but stay out of the fray on this thread.

Honestly idk why this thread is still open. It’s just bickering and finger pointing and accusations that in reality don’t matter and just general ill will. Not the reason I signed up here and pledged towards the site

[MinMay]

Originally Posted by breitlings

He paid for steak and didn't get the steak. I think I would be inclined to hear this case, and tell the seller to sue UPS and the UPS Store if I were presiding, unless the buyer knew and told the seller to use that exact shipping method. But I am not a lawyer, yet, much less a judge.

Why should the seller bother since most folks on the forum believes seller has no responsibility. Seller has 9k already. The buyer is out of 9k.

If that’s the law then I would predict more folks going to sell an expensive Rolex box lol

[dmash]

Originally Posted by cda555

If UPS denies the claim, does that mean the buyer is out of luck? If a buyer has to assume the risk of being scammed by a seller, then the seller should assume the risk of shipping to a buyer. In this scenario, the buyer is not assuming any risk... he has the money. As I said before, good sellers have multiple lines of insurance. I would never ship a watch without two forms of insurance via my home owners and through the shipping company. Others sellers have mentioned they also have insurance on top of the shipping company's offering. In my opinion, if you are not ready to offer the buyer his money back in this instance, you should only sell in person. According to other people in this the thread the only good outcome would be if UPS paid out the claim. Barring that, the seller can just keep the money? No, he would still be required to pay the buyer back. So what is the difference between paying the buyer now, or then?

Your opinion, is assuming the buyer is not scamming the seller, and you have no way of knowing this for certain. What if this were the case? Then the buyer obtains a BLNr for free.

This is a pickle, it’s not so cut and dry as a lot of you are making this.

[MinMay]

Originally Posted by kingSubTT

Threat of lawsuit doesn't work against big companies. They have lawyers on their payroll. Couple of years back BMW USA refuse to fix my moonroof for free. I got a lawyer sent a demand notice. They still refused. After that I actually paid court costs and start the lawsuit. Then they settled with me. Keep in mind, it was only $2k to fix moon roof. Here we are taking $7-8k. No way in hell UPS or insurance is going to pay any of this.

I agree. Ups and insurance wont pay. UPS delivered the box with a signature. They are off the hook.

[cda555]

Originally Posted by dmash

Your opinion, is assuming the buyer is not scamming the seller, and you have no way of knowing this for certain. What if this were the case? Then the buyer obtains a BLNr for free.

This is a pickle, it’s not so cut and dry as a lot of you are making this.

Your assumption is that the seller isn't scamming the buyer. If this were the case the seller keeps the watch, gets the money, and potentially gets double the money from the insurance pay out.

A buyer buying from the forum is doing so to save money. He runs the risk of getting a rock instead of a watch. That is the risk reward for the buyer. A seller selling here is doing to to get top dollar (as oppose to going to a local dealer/broker). He runs the risk of something happening during shipping or a scamming buyer. That is the risk reward for the seller. In your scenario a seller never takes the risk. IMHO, unless you are prepared to take these inherent risks as a seller, you are better off going to a local dealer and getting a little less money.

[dmash]

Originally Posted by cda555

Your assumption is that the seller isn't scamming the buyer. If this were the case the seller keeps the watch, gets the money, and potentially gets double the money from the insurance pay out.

A buyer buying from the forum is doing so to save money. He runs the risk of getting a rock instead of a watch. That is the risk reward for the buyer. A seller selling here is doing to to get top dollar (as oppose to going to a local dealer/broker). He runs the risk of something happening during shipping or a scamming buyer. That is the risk reward for the seller. In your scenario a seller never takes the risk. IMHO, unless you are prepared to take these inherent risks as a seller, you are better off going to a local dealer and getting a little less money.

So you are saying, as a buyer you take a risk getting a rock, but then you want to also say ‘but actually, u take no risk, as in my mind, the seller should refund under any circumstance’

Confused


As I’ve stated towards multiple parties, and I’ll do so again to you. So let’s say I buy a watch from you. You know for a fact, all was there, you ship to me. I contact you and say nothing is there. You’re saying, without a doubt, 1000%, you would pay me out of pocket for that watch, no questions asked, despite not knowing if I’m scamming you and actually have the said watch?

I’m straight up calling BS on these claims, as that’s the equivalent of you going into your bank account and transferring $10k simply on the word of a stranger.

[kingSubTT]

Why would the buyer decide to buy from a seller who hasn't sold many watches on TRF. If this was my first watch, I would go for DavidSW, Takuya, OCrolexguy, Sohais etc.

No way any of these sellers can be accused of sending an empty box.

[helo008]

Originally Posted by Abdullah71601

As much as it sucks, the OP needs to be patient. Both sides should retain counsel though. Knowing your rights and remedies with the shipper and others will ensure this gets resolved amicably.

Thanks for the help Abdullah and everyone else who has chimed in to this thread. It's a nerve-wracking situation, but I'll do my best to patiently wait this out.

At the moment, the seller and I are cooperating together to go through the UPS claims process. I will of course update this thread when there are further developments, but for now I'd like to just say thank you again for everyone who has offered their insights to try to help us get to the bottom of this.

I hope that this can be resolved in an expeditious and civil manner--hopefully the next news I bring to you all is that the issue has been resolved and that the seller and I are both content.

[CorradoBrit]

Originally Posted by Abdullah71601

his post was a collection of unsubstantiated drivel, and not worth the time to type your response.

I was biting my lip

[MinMay]

Originally Posted by cda555

If UPS denies the claim, does that mean the buyer is out of luck? If a buyer has to assume the risk of being scammed by a seller, then the seller should assume the risk of shipping to a buyer. In this scenario, the buyer is not assuming any risk... he has the money. As I said before, good sellers have multiple lines of insurance. I would never ship a watch without two forms of insurance via my home owners and through the shipping company. Others sellers have mentioned they also have insurance on top of the shipping company's offering. In my opinion, if you are not ready to offer the buyer his money back in this instance, you should only sell in person. According to other people in this the thread the only good outcome would be if UPS paid out the claim. Barring that, the seller can just keep the money? No, he would still be required to pay the buyer back. So what is the difference between paying the buyer now, or then?

Unfortunately buyer is out of luck if UPS and insurance denied the claim. I feel bad for the buyer. Based on the response and lucky 8 he seems like a genuine and honest person. I do hope karma comes back to the person with the watch now.

[cda555]

Originally Posted by dmash

So you are saying, as a buyer you take a risk getting a rock, but then you want to come back and say ‘but actually, u take no risk, as in my mind, the seller should refund under any circumstance?’

Confused

Not that confusing. The buyer takes the risk of getting a crappy seller who steals the money. A scamming seller wouldn't "refund under any circumstance."

A a good seller has to prepare for a situation like this with better insurance. Why is that hard to accept? If all his ducks are in a row then he will get paid back. If the seller isn't comfortable with that then sell in person to a dealer and take less money.

[helo008]

Originally Posted by kingSubTT

Why would the buyer decide to buy from a seller who hasn't sold many watches on TRF. If this was my first watch, I would go for DavidSW, Takuya, OCrolexguy, Sohais etc.

No way any of these sellers can be accused of sending an empty box.

Yeah I'm realizing now that I should have paid a slight price premium to buy from a seller with a lot more references. Full disclosure, I purchased the watch from the seller because I got what I believe to be a good deal at $7,400. Although I obviously had suspicions, the seller is, as stated previously, a relatively public city councilmember in a city 3 hours away from me, and we even had a good conversation about his work when we talked on the phone. I was convinced that while he was not someone with as many references as the sellers you mentioned, he was still trustworthy.

Now that I know this, I will for sure make any future purchases on TRF from one of these sellers through credit card, if I choose not to directly go to an AD.

[dmash]

Originally Posted by cda555

Not that confusing. The buyer takes the risk of getting a crappy seller who steals the money. A scamming seller wouldn't "refund under any circumstance."

A a good seller has to prepare for a situation like this with better insurance. Why is that hard to accept? If all his ducks are in a row then he will get paid back. If the seller isn't comfortable with that then sell in person to a dealer and take less money.

Let me clarify.

In your opinion, the way every online transaction should work, is that the buyer has absolutely no worries whatsoever, and any scammer should be able to freely claim an empty box, and the seller should immediately pay?

[CorradoBrit]

Originally Posted by cda555

I would never ship a watch without two forms of insurance via my home owners and through the shipping company. Others sellers have mentioned they also have insurance on top of the shipping company's offering.

Are you sure homeowners would cover you in a situation like this? I was told on my policy if an item is stolen in a burglary from my own home and it was 'for sale' coverage would be denied. In this scenario the watch was sold so effectively not the seller's anymore.

[City74]

Originally Posted by helo008

Yeah I'm realizing now that I should have paid a slight price premium to buy from a seller with a lot more references. Full disclosure, I purchased the watch from the seller because I got what I believe to be a good deal at $7,400. Although I obviously had suspicions, the seller is, as stated previously, a relatively public city councilmember in a city 3 hours away from me, and we even had a good conversation about his work when we talked on the phone. I was convinced that while he was not someone with as many references as the sellers you mentioned, he was still trustworthy.

Now that I know this, I will for sure make any future purchases on TRF from one of these sellers through credit card, if I choose not to directly go to an AD.

First mistake. Believing a politician

[cda555]

Originally Posted by dmash

As I’ve stated towards multiple parties, and I’ll do so again to you. So let’s say I buy a watch from you. You know for a fact, all was there, you ship to me. I contact you and say nothing is there. You’re saying, without a doubt, 1000%, you would pay me out of pocket for that watch, no questions asked, despite not knowing if I’m scamming you and actually have the said watch?

I’m straight up calling BS on these claims, as that’s the equivalent of you going into your bank account and transferring $10k simply on the word of a stranger.

I would, and I have. As I have said before I ship a lot of expensive (sharp) things via various shipping outlets. I have had on an occasion been is this exact situation. I shipped the $1500 object and insured it. I was informed by the buyer that the box was tattered and in the box was a junky screw driver. Obviously one of two things happened... it was stolen during shipment or the buyer is lying. Either way, I immediately sent him the refund because I knew the risk as a seller. USPS approved my claim, but even if they didn't I knew I would have been covered under my USAA policy because I have a rider for my collectibles.

[MinMay]

Originally Posted by helo008

Yeah I'm realizing now that I should have paid a slight price premium to buy from a seller with a lot more references. Full disclosure, I purchased the watch from the seller because I got what I believe to be a good deal at $7,400. Although I obviously had suspicions, the seller is, as stated previously, a relatively public city councilmember in a city 3 hours away from me, and we even had a good conversation about his work when we talked on the phone. I was convinced that while he was not someone with as many references as the sellers you mentioned, he was still trustworthy.



Now that I know this, I will for sure make any future purchases on TRF from one of these sellers through credit card, if I choose not to directly go to an AD.

Will you buy from dmash? Hahah

[dmash]

Originally Posted by cda555

I would, and I have. As I have said before I ship a lot of expensive (sharp) things via various shipping outlets. I have had on an occasion been is this exact situation. I shipped the $1500 object and insured it. I was informed by the buyer that the box was tattered and in the box was a junky screw driver. Obviously one of two things happened... it was stolen during shipment or the buyer is lying. Either way, I immediately sent him the refund because I knew the risk as a seller. USPS approved my claim, but even if they didn't I knew I would have been covered under my USAA policy because I have a rider for my collectibles.

Then good on you. I would say you’re definitely an exception to the rule (concerning private sellers).

One can’t overlook the fact that this is SERIOUS money. A lot of people can’t silply take a $9000 loss in stride and chalk it up as a simple learning experience.