model identification help

[J@VIER]

hello, could you help me identifying if this could be an original rolex?

Seen on the internet very similar models but they always show the inscription "Oyster perpetual" rather than only "perpetual" like this one . The cage of this one is also thicker than the ones shown in the internet. Not sure about which model could it be.
4 digit code sn is written in the back of the cage.
I'm newbie in this field and dont know if iit could be an expensive fake as it seems to be made of gold.
I inherated it from a relative that passed away.
Thanks a lot
perpetual gold.jpg

perpetual gold 2.jpg

perpetual gold 3.jpg

[R.W.T.]

If you could have a watchmaker open the case and show the inside of the case back.

It is not an OYSTER case therefore it doesn't say Oyster on the dial. It is merely a Perpetual. The watch is Pre-1953 due to the SWISS MADE at the bottom. It could be a French cased model or an obscure non-oyster Perpetual variant. They are very rare. I have worked on one from the 1930s in stainless that I can find only one other to have ever surfaced. Let's see what the inside of the case back reveals.

[indianmachine]

very cool! Are there any markings in between the lugs on either side? Typically that's where the serial and reference number would be, although I'm not sure if that was the practice on these earlier models.

[J@VIER]

Thanks a lot r.w.t and indianmachine for your answers!
No markings at all between the lugs.
I can see only a 4 digit s/n written in the cage's back, just below the white mark


i atatch some pictures for your (and other's) reference
regards

perpetual 4.jpg

perpetual5.jpg

[MILGAUSS88]

Originally Posted by J@VIER

I can see only a 4 digit s/n written in the cage's back, just below the white mark

I doubt that is your serial number.
I am guessing that is going to be your reference (model) number.

Try googling that number and Rolex and see if you find any similar models.

Very unusual watch. You might not find another on line.

[offrdmania]

I love the imported double marked dial with Swiss Made and Fab Suisse at the bottom.

First impression is that it is 100% Rolex. Looks like it may need a bit of work with the cracked crystal and the dial feet may have broken since the dial looks like it may have rotated slightly.

That bracelet is lovely and may be original to the watch, it screams Rolex styling.

[GimmeTheLoupe]

That bracelet is very interesting! Love the dial too

[zapokee]

The waffle dial looks genuine, ergo the rest is probably genuine, too. I love the red "Officially" text.

I've never seen that bracelet before, but it does have some DNA of the later Jubilee bracelet, so may be a pre-cursor therof.

It'll be interesting to see how this develops. Keep us updated.

[baumare]

Very cool watch, I love the waffle dial!

Beautiful work on the bracelet as well, even though I wouldn’t be so sure that is Rolex made, I would guess more custom made from an handy jeweler, happy to be wrong…
May be the opener can take a photo of the clasp and see if there are any marks

[J@VIER]

Hello,
From your comments i assume it is a “rare species”.
Number written in the back is 9643. It was googled but didnt find a similar one. Colud it be unique? I wonder whether clock collectors might be interested in it or not.

Maybe you could advice me how could the crystal be repaired. Are there specific thechniques for that?
Anyway i am valuating if it is worth to take it to a professional for its refurbish as i am not milionaire.
Thanks a lot

[offrdmania]

OP, its a rare piece thats for sure, but that doesnt mean it will be a gold mine. Yes, it has value due to the gold content but it is out of style for current times and would probably only be worth the rebuild costs if it is a family heirloom and you plan on keeping it for a lifetime. A general idea for a service costs would be anywhere from $900-1500 or more if it is really bad on the inside.
It would need to be sent to someone with vintage Rolex knowledge and not to just any watchmaker. It may require parts that are no longer available that will need to be built from scratch.

[J@VIER]

Thanks for your comments. I will follow your recommendations.
Yes, its quite obvious its out of stile for current times!
I am new in this world, just wanted to know if it could have a sell in the collector market.
Regards

[R.W.T.]

Don't be so sure that it isn't worth more than you think. And I wouldn't be concerned that the movement is in that bad of shape considering the rest of the conditions. While typical "gent's" cases containing hand wind 700-710 12xx calibres in 14-18k from a similar period, sit in the low to mid 2k's....this is 10,000% more unique than that...and to right buyer might fetch a good deal more than that. I want to see the inside of the case back and also the movement.

[miamiclay]

The waffle dial, the red text, the “Fab Suisse,” those great hands, the dart hour markers, and all topped off with that truly fabulous bracelet - Wow!

I doubt the bracelet is factory Rolex (and if it is, it’s probably worth more than the watch), but either way it’s quite a piece of work. If the person from whom you inherited it has any meaning to you, I think it would certainly be worthwhile to get a new crystal and have it serviced (by a vintage Rolex specialist watchmaker) and then — Wear it with pride!

Your ancestor was one stylin’ dude.

[J@VIER]

I am happy you like the watch.
I see astonsihed that all of you focus into minimal details that are completely irrelevant for a not skilled person like me.


R W T, i will post some pictures once opened by the watchmaker for your reference. Thanks for your professional feedback. The clock is working, it auto-winds itself so i believe that the inside mechanism will not be in such bad condition. I notice a very very feeble vibration that seems to match the pendulum movement when it winds... Will see. I tried to upload a short video but it was rejected.

Thanks for your beautiful words Miamiclay. I dont really know the exact origin of the clock, but i heard that my ancestor received it from an oil tycoon in Venezuela. Maybe it was a present for gratitude or a debt payment for services or gaming because my ancestor was not a whealthy person. I am sure that the stylin dude was more of the oil magnate rather than my ancestor, who emigrated from Spain to Venezuela for a living! ;-)

[J@VIER]

I am happy you like the watch. I see astonsihed that all of you focus into minimal details that are completely irrelevant for a not skilled person like me.
I am happy you like the watch.
R W T, i will post some pictures once opened by the watchmaker for your reference. Thanks for your professional feedback. The clock is working, it auto-winds itself so i believe that the inside mechanism will not bo so damaged. Will see.

Thanks for your beautiful words Miamiclay. I dont really know the exact origin of the clock, but i heard that my ancestor received it from an oil tycoon in Venezuela. Maybe it was a present for gratitude or a debt payment for services. But I am sure that the stylin dude was more of the oil magnate rather than my ancestor, who emigrated to Venezuela for a living!


R W T, i will post some pictures once opened by the watchmaker for your reference. Thanks for your professional feedback. The clock is working, it auto-winds itself so i believe that the inside mechanism will not bo so damaged. Will see. I tried to upload a short video but it was rejected.

Thanks for your beautiful words Miamiclay. I dont really know the exact origin of the clock, but i heard that my ancestor received it from an oil tycoon in Venezuela. Maybe it was a present for gratitude or a debt payment for services or gaming because my ancestor was not a whealthy person. I am sure that the stylin dude was more of the oil magnate rather than my ancestor, who emigrated from Spain to Venezuela for a living! ;-)

[J@VIER]

I am happy you like the watch. I see astonsihed that all of you focus into minimal details that are completely irrelevant for a not skilled person like me.
I am happy you like the watch.
R W T, i will post some pictures once opened by the watchmaker for your reference. Thanks for your professional feedback. The clock is working, it auto-winds itself so i believe that the inside mechanism will not bo so damaged. Will see.

Thanks for your beautiful words Miamiclay. I dont really know the exact origin of the clock, but i heard that my ancestor received it from an oil tycoon in Venezuela. Maybe it was a present for gratitude or a debt payment for services. But I am sure that the stylin dude was more of the oil magnate rather than my ancestor, who emigrated to Venezuela for a living!


R W T, i will post some pictures once opened by the watchmaker for your reference. Thanks for your professional feedback. The clock is working, it auto-winds itself so i believe that the inside mechanism will not bo so damaged. Will see. I tried to upload a short video but it was rejected.

Thanks for your beautiful words Miamiclay. I dont really know the exact origin of the clock, but i heard that my ancestor received it from an oil tycoon in Venezuela. Maybe it was a present for gratitude or a debt payment for services or gaming because my ancestor was not a whealthy person. I am sure that the stylin dude was more of the oil magnate rather than my ancestor, who emigrated from Spain to Venezuela for a living! ;-)

[J@VIER]

I am happy you like the watch. I see astonsihed that all of you focus into minimal details that are completely irrelevant for a not skilled person like me.
I am happy you like the watch.
R W T, i will post some pictures once opened by the watchmaker for your reference. Thanks for your professional feedback. The clock is working, it auto-winds itself so i believe that the inside mechanism will not bo so damaged. Will see.

Thanks for your beautiful words Miamiclay. I dont really know the exact origin of the clock, but i heard that my ancestor received it from an oil tycoon in Venezuela. Maybe it was a present for gratitude or a debt payment for services. But I am sure that the stylin dude was more of the oil magnate rather than my ancestor, who emigrated to Venezuela for a living!


R W T, i will post some pictures once opened by the watchmaker for your reference. Thanks for your professional feedback. The clock is working, it auto-winds itself so i believe that the inside mechanism will not bo so damaged. Will see. I tried to upload a short video but it was rejected.

Thanks for your beautiful words Miamiclay. I dont really know the exact origin of the clock, but i heard that my ancestor received it from an oil tycoon in Venezuela. Maybe it was a present for gratitude or a debt payment for services or gaming because my ancestor was not a whealthy person. I am sure that the stylin dude was more of the oil magnate rather than my ancestor, who emigrated from Spain to Venezuela for a living! ;-)

[J@VIER]

hello,
i attach some pictures of the inside for your reference
if i am not wrong the serial starts by 83xxx and according to the serial number tables it would mean the manufacturing year to be 1936, but i would appreciate confirmation.
thanks a lot


IMG-3248.jpg

IMG-3249.jpg

IMG-3250.jpg

IMG-3251.jpg

[offrdmania]

That is just a movement number and not the watches serial number.

The inside of the case back is unmarked other than the gold hallmark. If we can get a close up clear shot of the hallmark then we may be able to determine it year of manufacture.

Without any Rolex markings on the inner case back or any marking for known Rolex case makers, this may be a boutique made case as well as the bracelet that goes with it.

[MILGAUSS88]

Again I believe the reference number was on the back of this case, not on the inside or between the lugs as on many other watches.

[MILGAUSS88]

As speculated before it appears this was likely made for Rolex and not by Rolex, since there are no Rolex hallmarks on the inside of the case.

[CTech]

This looks like an early perpetual movement (bubble back type?) has been put in another maker's case. There is a bronze colored adapter ring that looks very similar to some Omega parts, but I don't think this is an Omega case.

The OP told us in post #10 that the number on the case back is 9643 and that a Google search doesn't bring up any similar matches. That isn't a Rolex model number that I know of so it is probably the model number of the original watch.

The case looks like it is gold plated and the mark on the inside of the case back isn't a gold hallmark but is probably a manufacturer's mark.

The bracelet isn't of Rolex manufacture either and it might also be gold plated. It would be worth getting a jeweler to test the case and bracelet to see if they are solid gold or if they are gold plated, and it would also be useful to see the bracelet clasp and any markings there.

Overall, I'm of the opinion that this is a gold plated case from a non-Rolex watch with a transplanted early Rolex perpetual movement, exact caliber to be determined.

[J@VIER]

Thanks a lot for your response. It seems could be a kind of custom made hybryd clock using original mechanism.
I will take to the official dealer in order to know which kind of caliber is in it.

Regarding its gold plating, i'm not an expert and i'm wrong but seems to me by its heavy weigh and texture to be made in gold.

I took some close-up images of some scratches and small areas of damage. Maybe we could achieve a more accurate opinion.
Thanks a lot
Regards
IMG-3310 (1).jpg

IMG-3307.jpg

IMG-3309 (1).jpg

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IMG-3312.jpg

[CTech]

The new images of the case do seem to show that it is solid gold and a jeweler should be able to test it and tell you if it is 14kt, 18kt, etc.

I've looked again at the marks inside the case back and I think there might be the remains of some hallmarks there, so I think it was probably machined slightly so the perpetual movement could fit and most of the hallmarks have been erased.

The best clue that it might be solid gold is the mark on the bracelet clasp. I think that says 18K, and if so it indicates that the bracelet is 18kt gold. That looks like a typical USA gold mark where there was no system of date codes or makers marks for gold assaying, just a simple stamp of 10K, 14K, 18K, etc. to indicate the gold content.

If the case back does have the remains of some hallmarks in it then I think they would probably be from a European country where there would be three or four stamps in total. Apart from the clear stamp of some letters in a diamond shape I think there might also be a faint outline of a date stamp that has been partially machined away:

[J@VIER]

hello experts,
summarizing all the opinions.

-The movement seems to be original, its caliper still not identified. Not seen any opinions to the geniuinity of the waffle dial in the forum but it seems original from rolex.

-The bracalet and the case seem to be solid gold, Bracelet has 18k mark. Case gold type is type still to be determined. They both dont contain any mark from rolex.

conclusions:
Some belief it is a custom made gold clock. Starting from a different one, somebody would have adapted an original movement and a unusual perpetual waffle dial into it. it can be seen a copper ring adapter inside. Who did it and where is still a mystery. Some references to be a French or European cased model have arised. The number in the back of the case would be the original brand watch reference number.

Ohers speculate the case and bracelet were done by somebody for rolex, thus being the reason for not containing any rolex sn in them .The 4 digit 9643 number in the back of the case would be the supposed rolex rerference number thus being an obscure variant..There have not been found coincidences when googling it , a fact that supports that this hypothesys might be false.
thanks a lot guys!

[Verdi]

my 2 cents

non rolex case
non rolex bracelet

Rolex dial, hands and movement


PS: any chance it originates from South America?

[zapokee]

BTW, OP, in English it's a watch, not a clock. Same word in Spanish, I guess.

[J@VIER]

Hi Verdi,
It was brought from Venezuela by my ancestor Probably was made there.

Zapokee, thank for the clarification. Yes, we use same word for both cases so thats the reason!
Thanks a lot guys!

[J@VIER]

hello guys again...
Now a doubt arisses to me.

We can see that the dial, supposed to be original from rolex, says Rolex Perpetual, (a verey rare one as i have understood from previous opinions due to most of them say Rolex Oyster Perpetual). In this case, this "Rolex Perpetual" inscription is in accordance to the fact that the mechanism is set in a non-oyster case.. Of course this could be a casuality but maybe not...How was the case then for perpetual (non oyster case) watches?
Whats your opinion?
Regards