Brand Independance

[hl0m4n]

if lange and vacheron were independent and not owned by richemont, would it impact your purchase or view on the brand?

for me personally, yes. for example, there are vacherons i like but when compared to similiar ap counterpart, would lean more towards ap for their independence alone.
by no means does that deter the quality and craftsmanship of vacheron but there's just some halo perception from purchasing from an independent brand.

to be fair, if we flip the table on patek and ap and they were owned by a conglomerate such as richemont, would it impact your purchase or view on the brand?

[WatchEater666]

AP and Patek are massive companies and I don’t consider them independents.

To me independents are small businesses still run by very passionate founders with a passion for true haute horology.

Objectively, AP is really rough at the price point, as is Patek. Clear machining marks all over the anglage, etc.

[unknown]

For me there is a HUGE difference between what people consider "independent"

Most will say ' Well you are independent if you don't belong to the big groups such a LVMH, Swatch; Kering, Richemont, ...

But I see it completely different

I'll give you an example. Take for example Ming.
These are called independent ... But to me they are everything BUT independent.
They make NOTHING themselves and rely 100% on others. Somebody makes their case, another one their hands, another one their movement and so on.
I took Ming as an example but there are SO MANY that belong in that category.
Never understood why everyone call these independent.
I don't even consider these as a watch brand but rather a designer

What I do consider as independant sare guys like a few I do own. Pascal Coyon, Florent Lecomte, hopefully Reima Koivukoski pretty soon.
They do start from an existing movement ( sometimes new sometimes old vintage ) but they rework is completely, they give it a super nice finishing, make and replace some parts, change so much. Make their own dial, hands, case ...
These are WATCHMAKERS ... those others are just business man that look for the right people to let them build a watch

[huydoan]

Originally Posted by unknown

For me there is a HUGE difference between what people consider "independent"

Most will say ' Well you are independent if you don't belong to the big groups such a LVMH, Swatch; Kering, Richemont, ...

But I see it completely different

I'll give you an example. Take for example Ming.
These are called independent ... But to me they are everything BUT independent.
They make NOTHING themselves and rely 100% on others. Somebody makes their case, another one their hands, another one their movement and so on.
I took Ming as an example but there are SO MANY that belong in that category.
Never understood why everyone calls these independent.
I don't even consider these as a watch brand but rather a designer

What I do consider as independantsare VERY small guys like a few I do own. Pascal Coyon, Florent Lecomte, hopefully Reima Koivukoski pretty soon.
They do start from an existing movement ( sometimes new sometimes old vintage ) but they rework is completely, they give it a super nice finishing, make and replace some parts, change so much. Make their own dial, hands, case ...
These are WATCHMAKERS ... those others are just business man that look for the right people to let them build a watch

well said

[Ichiran]

For me it's more about the watches. If the RRCCII and Simplicity are made by Fossil, I will still be very interested in them regardless of the brand. If Vacheron were to release the Nautilus in the exact specifications and dimensions, I will be a buyer.

I asked my wife the same question from a bag perspective. Between a Chanel 2.55 (independent) vs Birkin (Hermes is listed), her preference is the Birkin. It is not exactly an apple-to-apple comparison to OP's question but the point I'm making is some of us buy the product not the brand.

If your question is purely on less shareholders' "influence" on an independent watchmaker, that might not be the case also because private companies can have their own shareholders. For instance, FPJ and Romain Gauthier have minority shareholders who can influence decision-making.

[Pw92676]

IMHO, independence is largely an overblown concept.

[John Doyle]

Yes, I only go for the following independents: Rolex, Patek Philippe and Audemars Piguet.

[enjoythemusic]

Ming seems to mainly outsource, and as another said AP and Patek are massive companies that churn out tens of thousands of timepieces each year. How about we carefully look at 'watchmaker hours' over timepiece combined with the overall qty produced instead?

Agree the 'lines' of being a true independent has blurred. Members of the AHCI is a good starting point of course. If you truly love independents, then join / support the AHCI as i have :)

List Of Independent Watchmakers
https://www.ahci.ch/members/

Become a Circle Of Friends of the AHCI
https://www.ahci.ch/circle-of-friends/

[GB-man]

Wouldn’t change my outlook much. I’m more focused on the quality of the offerings, my desire to own them and the accessibility.

One thing to note is that I do enjoy when there is a person behind the brand pulling the strings that I feel is a standout among peers. For that reason I’m drawn to FPJ and MBF, Urwerk etc Large brands can have these types of leaders as well. I think Guido at parmigiani is sharp.

As far as micros that produce under 100 pieces per year that’s a whole different segment as far as I’m concerned. A game I’d love to play at some point but only after I’ve amassed many other pieces.

[1William]

Being independent does not impact me. It is all about the watches.

[Audevache]

As can be seen from my username, I’m a big fan of both VC and AP, and own and love both.

A Lange 1 Moonphase is on the roadmap.

Patek doesn’t have a single current production model I’m really in love with (though am waiting for a successor to the Patek 5230G).

I had considered Laurent Ferrier and Moser for a while but never found anything that got me to pull the trigger.

And beyond (maybe) a Platinum Daytona there isn’t anything Rolex produces that truly excites me (except for my beloved BB58blue daily beater).

So in a nutshell, it’s all about the product for me.

Just had a chat with my SA at AP house the other day and they are all hoping that they stay independent with the new CEO.

But really will a Jumbo be less attractive should the family finally decide to cash out to Arnault? Don’t think so.

[Dreamy]

Originally Posted by WatchEater666

AP and Patek are massive companies and I don’t consider them independents.

To me independents are small businesses still run by very passionate founders with a passion for true haute horology.

Objectively, AP is really rough at the price point, as is Patek. Clear machining marks all over the anglage, etc.

Audemars Piguet is still in the hands of the founder, who are passionate about the brand and haute horology. Also, hardly a “massive “ company.

So obviously AP is an independent under any objective, and even under your own subjective, measure.

[WatchEater666]

Originally Posted by Dreamy

Audemars Piguet is still in the hands of the founder, who are passionate about the brand and haute horology. Also, hardly a “massive “ company.

So obviously AP is an independent under any objective, and even under your own subjective, measure.

No it's not. It's owned by the same family, which is very different than the original founder.

Try again.

[Dreamy]

Originally Posted by WatchEater666

No it's not. It's owned by the same family, which is very different than the original founder.

Try again.

Haha, ok tell yourself whatever you wish, doesn’t change the reality. The original founding family still, privately, owns the brand.

PS thanks to the forum for this “twit” animation, perfectly apropos.

[kunlun]

AP passed 1 billion CHF valuation a few years ago.

It's big.

[kunlun]

Originally Posted by Ichiran

shareholders who can influence decision-making.

Good points, although here it is good to note that François-Paul specifically chose an investor who is a passionate FPJ collector whom he knows personally and would never try to influence Framçois-Paul's creative process. So, no influenece there, by design.

[WatchEater666]

Originally Posted by Dreamy

Haha, ok tell yourself whatever you wish, doesn’t change the reality. The original founding family still, privately, owns the brand.

PS thanks to the forum for this “twit” animation, perfectly apropos.

That is very different from the original founder. It takes a completely different type of entrepreneur to go from 0 -> 1.

[Calatrava r]

The issue to me with new or smaller high-end independents, is will they be around to service their watches in the future.

[unknown]

Originally Posted by Calatrava r

The issue to me with new or smaller high-end independents, is will they be around to service their watches in the future.

If you’re talking about normal watches ( not things like HYT ) there will NEVER bay a problem
“Normal” watches with mouvements like the make them since century’s will always be serviceable. You just need to find a good watchmaker.
A smith, dufour, journe, even a guy that makes only 3 watches per year…. As long as we have watchmakers someone will be able to service it and even makes parts of some parts should be replaced.