Critique of Grand Seiko

[Kinnakeet]

Originally Posted by Cru Jones

I appreciate the great movements, excellent finishing, wonderful dials and relative anonymity. For me, the positives far outweigh the small areas for improvement. No watch is perfect.

I agree. I find the bracelets very comfortable. While it would be nice to have a comfort link I find the GS clasp much more comfortable than my Rolex sports watches.

[Loevhagen]

Let GS still have low value retention. This parameter make sure that only tue genuine watch enthusiasts loving GS buy the brand.

[minute_man]

Originally Posted by Loevhagen

Let GS still have low value retention. This parameter make sure that only tue genuine watch enthusiasts loving GS buy the brand.

Well said !

[brandrea]

Originally Posted by Cru Jones

I appreciate the great movements, excellent finishing, wonderful dials and relative anonymity. For me, the positives far outweigh the small areas for improvement. No watch is perfect.

Really well said

[watchmainspring]

Originally Posted by Loevhagen

Let GS still have low value retention. This parameter make sure that only tue genuine watch enthusiasts loving GS buy the brand.

Maybe for some. It's a poor value proposition to have a watch lose 50% equity as soon as you walk out of the AD. You're immediately losing thousands; is that the price of being a "genuine watch enthusiast" or poor financial decision-making?


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[pickettt]

Originally Posted by watchmainspring

Maybe for some. It's a poor value proposition to have a watch lose 50% equity as soon as you walk out of the AD. You're immediately losing thousands; is that the price of being a "genuine watch enthusiast" or poor financial decision-making?


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To an enthusiast, a watch is not a financial instrument.

[samson66]

Originally Posted by watchmainspring

Maybe for some. It's a poor value proposition to have a watch lose 50% equity as soon as you walk out of the AD. You're immediately losing thousands; is that the price of being a "genuine watch enthusiast" or poor financial decision-making?


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Don't buy them new then. I'm happy they don't hold their value. Picked up my GS at ~35% off retail. And if I sell it today, I would get roughly what I paid for it. Same goes for Omega.

[samson66]

Originally Posted by Kinnakeet

I agree. I find the bracelets very comfortable. While it would be nice to have a comfort link I find the GS clasp much more comfortable than my Rolex sports watches.

I don't disagree. The braceles and clasps do wear comfortably. My issue is more that the bracelet just doesn't feel premium and doesn't match the effort they put into their cases and dials. The clasps, while again not uncomfortable, feel sort of tinny and lack the refinement I would expect in watches at this level.

Agree with your other comment about anonymity in the sense that GS is an enthusiasts watch. Rolex is for the flex. Usually when someone asks me about my Rolex, the next questions is how much did it cost. When someone chats you up about Grand Seiko you KNOW that person is a fellow enthusiast and appreciates fine watches.

[thegrandseirolexguy]

Originally Posted by samson66

I don't disagree. The braceles and clasps do wear comfortably. My issue is more that the bracelet just doesn't feel premium and doesn't match the effort they put into their cases and dials. The clasps, while again not uncomfortable, feel sort of tinny and lack the refinement I would expect in watches at this level.

Agree with your other comment about anonymity in the sense that GS is an enthusiasts watch. Rolex is for the flex. Usually when someone asks me about my Rolex, the next questions is how much did it cost. When someone chats you up about Grand Seiko you KNOW that person is a fellow enthusiast and appreciates fine watches.

The EVO 9 clasp on the birch series feels more substantial. Although I dare not claim it is a big improvement over the older generation GS.

Where Rolex is ahead is in the manufacturing tolerances of the end link to the case and the clasp.

There’s still a tiny void between the case and end link, with noticeable wiggle room whenever I deliberately jiggle the bracelet.

Additionally, the GS clasp also exposes a small gap when closed.

None of that on my GMT master 2. The end link is completely flush with the case. Can’t even wiggle it.












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[thegrandseirolexguy]

Originally Posted by watchmainspring

Maybe for some. It's a poor value proposition to have a watch lose 50% equity as soon as you walk out of the AD. You're immediately losing thousands; is that the price of being a "genuine watch enthusiast" or poor financial decision-making?


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I think the purchase of a mechanical wrist watch is arguably a poor financial decision regardless. But we still buy them anyway.

Putting the $ into an S&P 500 index fund is probably going to make you far more $ than buying Veblen goods such as mechanical wristwatches.


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[watchmainspring]

Originally Posted by thegrandseirolexguy

I think the purchase of a mechanical wrist watch is arguably a poor financial decision regardless. But we still buy them anyway.

Putting the $ into an S&P 500 index fund is probably going to make you far more $ than buying Veblen goods such as mechanical wristwatches.


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I agree with you. This argument comes up a lot.

I'd also argue that if you want to wisely collect also watches, I think you can probably find a happy medium by purchasing watches that aren't financial dogs and retain more equity.

Back to my original argument, I think I'd GS fixes some of the aforementioned weaknesses, they can create greater demand and secondary market value retention, all while, most importantly, making better watches for us enthusiasts.


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[Jack T]

Many good points raised by the OP and by others throughout the thread - the bracelets could be better, the sport models a bit more streamlined. As for the power reserve gauge on the dial, no thanks. With the artistry and cultural significance that GS designers have put into so many of the dials, that gauge jars the eye, disrupts the entire effort. My one complaint, no reason not to have a screw down crown on every watch.

My two GS, the SBGM221 and SBGY007 are beautiful and reliable watches, one on the sporty side, the other more dressy. They capture what I consider the best features of Grand Seiko, superior mechanical movements, beautiful finishing and great aesthetics.

Besides, except for one or two brands, and less than a dozen other models industry wide, all watches drop in price. That’s not how I measure value.

[IGY]

I agree with 1 to 3. On 4... I'd rather they didn't waste money on product placement with sport celebs etc. Or do you want a situation where people more interested in celebrities than watches buy Grand Seiko. So next time you visit a store to buy a whatever you are told to sit on a wait list. No thanks.

I'm not really particularly bothered about the resale either. Not because I like burning money. But instead it gives me the option of buying pre owned below RRP or brand new from a dealer without an BS. And I'm not buying the watch to flip it but to own and wear for years to come. Sure if depreciation were >50% in a year I'd not like it and 100% would buy used. But I don't mind new watches depreciating once they become pre owned.

[ppierce]

The naming convention, to me, is the biggest issue. Not to me personally but i think to lots of folks it is. I look at GS as the Lexus to Toyota, Genesis to Hyundai or the Acura to Honda. They branded those "luxury" vehicles perfectly and changed the names as well. Nobody feels good paying $80,000 for a Grand Hyundai, recent car prices notwithstanding.

[pickettt]

Originally Posted by ppierce

The naming convention, to me, is the biggest issue. Not to me personally but i think to lots of folks it is. I look at GS as the Lexus to Toyota, Genesis to Hyundai or the Acura to Honda. They branded those "luxury" vehicles perfectly and changed the names as well. Nobody feels good paying $80,000 for a Grand Hyundai, recent car prices notwithstanding.

In Japan, they have equivalent Lexus and Acura models… but they still market them as Toyota and Honda respectively.

[njlam]

I just purchased my first GS and am awaiting its arrival.

It is the Spring Drive technology that attracted me and I wanted at least one to represent GS in my collection. I chose the SBGA 407 because it had many of the qualities GS is known for. I almost chose the SBGY007 but may get that one eventually.

While researching GS, I did come to several conclusions:
1. They make too many models. It is hard to figure out what to get.
2. Their top of the line GMTs are too big at 44mm. Their smaller GMTs do not have rotating bezels.
3. They offer too many options (two types of steel, two types of Ti)
4. Everyone seems to complain about the GS bracelets (adjustability and looks). The need to make a bracelet that makes more of a "Grand Seiko" statement, sort of like the Jubilee and Oyster do for Rolex. I chose a strap model because the bracelets were so uninspired
5. While the dials are beautiful they change or are discontinued too often. Let some classics develop.
6. Also, too many special/limited editions. There have been some non-US editions (SGBY027 for example), that I would have liked but not available in the US.

Currently the GS models I prefer are Spring Drive versions, but the Hi Beat 36000 may also be worth looking at.

[Whineboy]

Grand Seiko servicing in the US is a disaster. My recent experience here:

https://www.watchuseek.com/threads/t...#post-57007822


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[minute_man]

Originally Posted by Whineboy

Grand Seiko servicing in the US is a disaster. My recent experience here:

https://www.watchuseek.com/threads/t...#post-57007822


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I've had Rolex and Tudor watches returned to me scratched and even with smudges on hands after warranty work. I didn't expect that but it happened.
And while -annoying as that was- I could bring myself to consider it part of the expected tear and wear, sloppy hands placement and scratches on a freshly buffed case after a full, paid service, is completely unacceptable.
I have no personal experience with the GS service but when time comes, I'll go for the full treatment, including zaratsu polish in Japan.
Also, I think I've read in the owner's manual that GS movements may be swapped during a service. Can anyone confirm that?

[Fleetlord]

Originally Posted by Whineboy

Grand Seiko servicing in the US is a disaster. My recent experience here:

https://www.watchuseek.com/threads/t...#post-57007822


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Did they even "service the movement"?

[Whineboy]

Originally Posted by Fleetlord

Did they even "service the movement"?

Hah!
Since the timekeeping is less precise than pre-servicing, I think they did.
Most unpleasant experience.


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[Whineboy]

Originally Posted by minute_man

Also, I think I've read in the owner's manual that GS movements may be swapped during a service. Can anyone confirm that?

Mine came back with the same 6-digit movement serial number.

[minute_man]

Originally Posted by Whineboy

Mine came back with the same 6-digit movement serial number.

Thanks for this info

[Dirt]

Originally Posted by Whineboy

Mine came back with the same 6-digit movement serial number.

Perhaps they like to preserve the essence of the watch in the traditional sense and keep the original movement for a watch?
It seems very Japanese in that respect.

Or it could simply be a logistical thing and only the movement may be exchanged in Japan(mothership)?

I do wonder how it will go for myself when mine needs to be serviced. The timekeeping is not as good generally speaking as any of my other watches but I'm not concerned as it's my dress watch which is only worn occasionally.
Their policy is to send them all back to Japan except those with Quartz movements so it may come back running better

[Dirt]

Originally Posted by IGY

I agree with 1 to 3. On 4... I'd rather they didn't waste money on product placement with sport celebs etc. Or do you want a situation where people more interested in celebrities than watches buy Grand Seiko. So next time you visit a store to buy a whatever you are told to sit on a wait list. No thanks.

I'm not really particularly bothered about the resale either. Not because I like burning money. But instead it gives me the option of buying pre owned below RRP or brand new from a dealer without an BS. And I'm not buying the watch to flip it but to own and wear for years to come. Sure if depreciation were >50% in a year I'd not like it and 100% would buy used. But I don't mind new watches depreciating once they become pre owned.

The naming conventions are what they are with regard to reference numbers.
I suppose with 4 different types of movements there aren't that many options in that regard.
They are spread too wide in that regard as there is no real brand identity in terms of style except for the 3180 style and "Grammar of Design" which probably holds them back from going to the next level.

Case thickness is a problem, but they're not alone in that.

[Fleetlord]

I wonder why they didn't call them all Credor?

Japanese companies do this a lot.

In electronics, Sony made cheap stereo equipment, but they are capable of much more...so they called it Sony ES.

Yamaha does that now. Want a $200 receiver and some cheap speakers? Yamaha.

Want a $50,000 two channel system? Yamaha can do that too. But their resale and respect in that space is crummy as people think of their low end first.

We all know how Toyota handled it in North American market. Can't consistently sell a $100K luxury car next to a $12K Corrolla.

[gtnator]

Originally Posted by Fleetlord

I wonder why they didn't call them all Credor?

Japanese companies do this a lot.

In electronics, Sony made cheap stereo equipment, but they are capable of much more...so they called it Sony ES.

Yamaha does that now. Want a $200 receiver and some cheap speakers? Yamaha.

Want a $50,000 two channel system? Yamaha can do that too. But their resale and respect in that space is crummy as people think of their low end first.

We all know how Toyota handled it in North American market. Can't consistently sell a $100K luxury car next to a $12K Corrolla.

Wasn’t the Lexus name created for Americans because we need to feel like it’s different from Toyota to be able to appreciate the higher end Toyota cars? When they created Lexus in Japan the same cars were still called Toyota because they dont care about the name as much as whats the real substance.

I think now that Lexus has become a thing, they now call it Lexus everywhere but still sell out of Toyota dealers.


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[gtnator]

Originally Posted by watchmainspring

I am on team Grand Seiko and Seiko, but I have some feedback that I think will help the brand.

1. Make the Grand Seiko sport line smaller. These watches are massive! They cut out very interested and profitable segments that also have smaller wrists. The Grand Seiko sport collection is basically all oversized and is far from aligned with industry averages (in my rough assessment).

2. Improve the functionality of most of the Grand Seiko watches.
a.Allow micro adjustments on sport bracelets (or, rather, most or all GS bracelets)
b.Use discreet lume on some of the dressier watches (similar to Rolex’s Datejust and Day-Date).

3. Rework pricing. $79,000 for a SBGZ009 dress watch on a leather strap is aggressive and not even remotely close to similar models from GS's competition. The high price point on the SBGZ009 or the more jaw-dropping $250,000 price point SBGD209 have to be an anchor for other high-volume models, rather than a legitimate valuation of these luxury watches’ worth. On the contrary, these insane prices might be an attempt to (unsuccessfully?) strong-army Grand Seiko into the ultra-premium watch category. I applaud the attempt, but other watches, such as a $201,080 Patek Philippe 5160/500G comes across as a superior watch at a lower price. I could list countless other watches at a tenth of the price that are likely equally satisfying to most collectors.

4. Stop cannibalizing. Grand Seiko Sport and Seiko Prospex are extremely similar lines. Yes, the price points might differ by roughly one order of magnitude, but Seiko Prospex has to be cannibalizing some of the higher-priced Grand Seiko sport market. Maybe consider settling for something in the middle that can be more profitable and that likewise meets market demands more effectively.

4. Make Grand Seiko more desirable. Grand Seiko resale value is poor compared to Rolex, Omega, Patek, and other brands. Look closely at those marketing strategies and consider adapting. Improved product placement? Sponsor more sports ventures?

I like this conversation but disagree on one line, the Grand Seiko Dive watches. I love their size and their large size is perfect- here is why. There are so many other small dive watches to choose from in other brands, no need to shrink this one. Especially since they make most of them out of titanium, that alone makes them wear 20% smaller, but with the greater wrist presence. And, the divers have an awesome micro adjust, that can be done with the watch still on the wrist, buckled up! I love these diver bracelets so I hope GS doesn’t change that either. GS dive watches really stand out above the rest. Try one if you haven’t.


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[Mccall86]

Seiko got me into mechanical watches. Like many an SKX was my gateway. My largest critique is their U.S. service center.

I had a terrible experience with their one and only service center for the U.S. in New Jersey. Long story short I have a 2 year old Seiko SPB143 under warranty with a movement running slow out of spec and a rotating bezel that isn't clicking properly anymore. Seiko wouldn't honor the repair under warranty because the AD didn't write the purchase date on the warranty card - they just stamped it. I then supplied a purchase receipt with the date on it but they weren't having it so I told them just to send it back.

Needless to say I won't buy another Seiko. I was actually considering a Grand Seiko snowflake prior to this but there's no way I would put out that type of money and have to deal with this same lousy service center in the event I had an issue with the watch. And if you look them up you'll find I'm not the only one who's had a bad experience with them.

Seiko really needs to address this issue asap or they will damage their brand. It's a shame because I really like their watches but they've lost a customer and I won't recommend them to anyone anymore.

[watchmainspring]

Originally Posted by gtnator

I like this conversation but disagree on one line, the Grand Seiko Dive watches. I love their size and their large size is perfect- here is why. There are so many other small dive watches to choose from in other brands, no need to shrink this one. Especially since they make most of them out of titanium, that alone makes them wear 20% smaller, but with the greater wrist presence. And, the divers have an awesome micro adjust, that can be done with the watch still on the wrist, buckled up! I love these diver bracelets so I hope GS doesn’t change that either. GS dive watches really stand out above the rest. Try one if you haven’t.


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Thanks. I have a 6" wrist so GS is pushing it.

For diving I prefer nylon/canvas velcro straps. My 116610 does not fit over a wet suit with the extension out. Curious if GS fixes that.

[DonLee]

Originally Posted by watchmainspring

I agree. For comparison the 41mm Rolex Datejust is thinner at 12mm. I would also argue that 39mm or 40mm instead of the 41mm SBGA211G would offer better aesthetics. Grand Seiko definitely has the skill to make the case smaller or thinner, yet they didn't.

The 41mm snowflake wears a lot smaller than a 41mm Rolex OP. just saying...