f*** Paypal

[RRsDJ]

Mods you can delete it, lock it whatever, I just wanted to give an update.


Little background. I sold a DJ with what I though was an authentic Rolex President bracelet several weeks ago. The buyer claimed the bracelet was real 18K gold but not an authentic Rolex bracelet. Paypal awarded the buyers claim and the buyer shipped my DJ back to me. Upon opening the return, my DJ was not returned to me in the original watch box that I shipped it in. It was returned to me in a plastic watch box lined with toilet paper and not only that, but there's a huge dent in one of the non-removable links. I called up Paypal and filed an appeal on the buyers "not as described claim". A few days went by and Paypal said I needed supporting documentation:

"supporting documentation must be from an unbiased third party and must be on letterhead that includes the name, address, and phone number of the individual, business, or organization. This contact information is important because it gives us a way to request additional information (if necessary)."


No problem. I found a local jeweler and took the bracelet to him this past Friday (11/30). He gave me a letter on company letterhead stating what link was damaged and that it could be repaired. I went on Paypals site the same day and attached the document as a PDF. Paypal sent me a email back Saturday, (12/1) stating that the fax was illegible / too light. That made no sense since I never faxed anything to them. So I attached the same file as a JPEG. I received an email from Paypal Sunday (12/2) stating that they denied my claim:

"We are unable to grant your appeal for this case because the supporting documentation you provided did not follow our guidelines and was not received within the specified timeframe."


You have got to be kidding me. I called up Paypal, again, this afternoon and asked to speak with a case manager. I explained the story and said I submitted exactly what Paypal asked me to submit so I dont know why its being denied based on my supporting documentation or within the specified time frame. He looked over my file and said I see where you attached / submitted bothfiles, the PDF and the JPEG, and both are clearly legible and that the letter has all of the necessary contact info on company letterhead. He said he'll appeal their decision for me but it will count as a 2nd appeal, which is complete BS because theyre accepting the same documents I originally sent two days ago so there shouldn't have been any reason to deny my first appeal based on any wrong documentation or not within the time frame.

Fast forward to tonight. I received a email from Paypal stating that they denied my appeal. I called Paypal up again and asked why it was being denied. This time its being denied because I sold a used item, and a dent is considered normal wear and tear for a used item...WHAT!? I said my pictures on eBay clearly show a bracelet that does NOT have any dents or dings on the bracelet and this is no small dent either!! I said Paypal has been trying to weasel their way out of my claim from the time I submitted my documentation. IF I was the buyer and bought a used Rolex and it had a dent in the bracelet, that was not noted NOR shown in the photos in the eBay auction, Paypal would not deny me if I filed a "not as described" claim. I said theres no difference here other than Im the seller.

The rep said he will appeal it again but I am only allowed 3 appeals and this is the final appeal. Before we hung up I asked the rep, what about the watch box? He said because it dealt with the same transaction that he could not do anything about any reimbursement if they denied my appeal. I said thats unacceptable. Theres two complaints and one has NOTHING to do with the other. This is not some cheap watch box. The box was mahogany / suede lined and cost a little over $300. I bought it just for this sell. I said I have the receipt showing I bought it the week of the sale. I told them I also have an message that was sent through eBays message system from the buyer stating that he threw my watch box away because he doesnt keep any box thats not a Rolex box. The Paypal rep said he will note that on my appeal. Alot of good theyve done so far.

If they deny my claim for the 3rd time Im doing a chargeback with USAA and Paypal will be eating every penny of the transaction and can deal with my bank.

[cajunron]

Inside joke

[cajunron]

I know you tried to do the right thing. It's a shame people are so vengeful. I hope paypal and ebay do what's fair. Good luck.

[caryyee]

Originally Posted by RRsDJ

If they deny my claim for the 3rd time Im doing a chargeback with USAA and Paypal will be eating every penny of the transaction and can deal with my bank.

Forgive my ignorance, but if you are the seller, how do you do a chargeback? I thought only buyers can do a chargeback as they are the ones trying to get their money back?

[Chopped54]

Sadly as a seller you have no protection with Ebay or Paypal. I have done quite a bit o business on there over the past decade and have been scammed by a couple of buyers with no help from either. Reason I NEVER leave a balance in my account.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[RRsDJ]

Originally Posted by rgdejong

Inside joke

Lol good one! That made my night. ;)

Originally Posted by rgdejong

I know you tried to do the right thing. It's a shame people are so vengeful. I hope paypal and ebay do what's fair. Good luck.

I told Paypal to look at my eBay ad to see the box and to see that there are no dents but they don't care. The buyer returned my DJ and got a refund. As far as they're concerned the case is closed.

Originally Posted by caryyee

Forgive my ignorance, but if you are the seller, how do you do a chargeback? I thought only buyers can do a chargeback as they are the ones trying to get their money back?

The money was taken from my bank when Paypal confirmed delivery, which was around 10am. I didn't open the box until later that day. So Paypal should've never refunded the money until I confirmed what I got back was what I sent.

So if they deny my claim ill file a chargeback with my bank because I didn't receive what I shipped to the buyer and it was returned damaged. Why should the buyer be made whole and not me? I should be in the same position I was in the day of shipment but I'm not. I'm not just going to accept Paypals appeal decision because they don't want to cover the costs of the damage and missing item.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[RRsDJ]

Originally Posted by Chopped54

Sadly as a seller you have no protection with Ebay or Paypal. I have done quite a bit o business on there over the past decade and have been scammed by a couple of buyers with no help from either. Reason I NEVER leave a balance in my account.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You're right about that... Sellers definitely aren't protected. My part was an honest mistake but the seller knows he damaged the bracelet and admitted to me that he threw my watch box away yet I have to eat it because Paypal says. Not me. Paypal can eat it and deal with my bank if it comes to that.

[crowncollection]

paypal is completely useless for the seller, i heard so many problems, last year a seller who only sells watches with thousands of feedback, lost a claim to a one off purchaser, who showed what was a clearly fake and a different watch.. Paypal stinks unless you are a buyer, no protection for sellers at all. I have buyers tell me when they have little or no feedback and i am flipping a watch, "i was under the impression paypal protects both of us" and i tell them, "it protects you not me", it's just a hassle for me, high fees for nothing in return imho for the seller.

[night]

its sickening the way people do business these days and the amount of respect. you should of got everything back that you sent and in the same condition. hopefully you get everything sorted out!

[4therightcause]

I absolutely despise Paypal and to some extent eBay as well.

[Silvio Mosiello]

Sorry to hear man! Be thankful since you could have taken a bigger hit. Lesson learned.

[perpetualman88]

Paypal is the worst company of all time

[cajunron]

With the cost of the box AND the cost of a link; this is not chump change. I would take them to small claims court if it comes to it. (if it's even possible) The obvious proof is in vivid color right in front of everyone's eyes.

[Hairdude1]

Sorry man. That sucks!

[Andad]

Certainly a very frustrating transaction that destroys faith and trust in others.
I hope common sense prevails but it look like it is going downhill fast.

Sorry about your situation.

[bayerische]

Paypal is a bully.

[Bangel]

What a pathetic situation. I was getting frustrated just reading what you had to go through. Hope you get some sort of satisfactory resolution.

[Grissom]

Taking them to small claims court sounds like an excellent idea. They may not even show as they will have to send an employee rep (they cannot send an atty) and then you would get a default judgement. You could then look into obtaining a court order to pull the money out of THEIR account. Maybe you could pull a "PayPal" on them!!

Good luck!

[RRsDJ]

So I received an email from Paypal a few minutes ago. This time, theyre saying the reason for denying my appeal is because:

"The damage noted in the appeal of the above case was cited by the buyer as the reason for the complaint. Therefore, the outcome of the case will not be reversed and the appeal has been denied."

WOW so its not because its a used bracelet and a dent is normal wear and tear as they initially stated last night. NOW theyre denying it because that was the reason for the buyers initial significantly not as described complaint the entire time, because of a dent. Are you kidding me!!? Thats a flat out LIE. Not ONE time has the buyer ever mentioned any damage and Paypal knows it!! The original complaint was filed by the buyer due to "not as described / copy of original".

On November 24, 2012, the day I received my DJ back, I immediately contacted the buyer through eBay letting him know of the damage and the missing box and this is what he wrote back:

"I just read an update on your Rolex forum....I have more wealth of knowledge than anyone on that forum....I am a man of my word, I don't have time for games, if I file a dispute, it's because I have reason....it's a hassle and it slows me down...I know we will have another arguemnet, but If there was a dent in the band, it was there originally...I buy so many watches that I did not remember how your watch came....if it a generic box, it gets thrown out in the garbage, I have no use for it...I figure I have some credibility since I was correct in the bracelet....let me say again, I'm sorry that the bracelet is fake...I truly think u had no idea...however, I did not mishandle ur watch, if there is a dent it was there before and it's an oversight on your part.. Do I ever get the benefit of doubt......I have bought watches from 1000's of people and pay more than anyone in the USA for them....yes , other dealers hate me...some respect me and some are my friends"



He says the dent was an oversight on my part. Yeah right. 50+ detailed pictures and HD videos but I didnt see this huge dent in my bracelet:


Lets do the timeline. The buyer initiated the claim on November 12, 2012 but said on November 24, 2012, 12 days AFTER he initiated the claim, that he does not remember how my watch came to him. So if he doesnt remember how is it Paypal says thats the reason he initiated the claim? I'll tell you how, because Paypal is a huge liar trying to weasel their way out of my appeal and is now lying to save their own azz so they dont have to pay for the damage and my watch box the buyer admittedly threw away.

Not only are they lying about the reasoning for the buyer filing the claim but theyre doing what I would say is criminal. He initiated the claim as "not as described / copy of original", yet now under the claim I dont see "copy of original", instead Paypal has switched it to:
REASON
"The listing didn't accurately describe the item."

Paypal has switched things around in their system to suit their decision for denying my appeal, I cant believe this! This is the shadiest company Ive ever dealt with. They can take it up with USAA now.

[Gaijin]

I know this has been a major major stressful transaction for you. However I would relax, chalk it up as a painful transaction but not get myself so worked up about it that it affected me. I can feel your anger.

The buyer came on here and really showed his true colors. A disgusting one post that he made.

I say choose to live on a higher level, let this go and be peaceful and relaxed. That may be in the long term more beneficial for you.

[RRsDJ]

Im not letting Paypal get away with this.

I contacted USAA and they issued me a temporary credit for the full amount. Before they did that I explained the entire situation and told her all of my evidence and she said I did have a case. She then asks me if any of my cards are linked to my Paypal account. I laughed and said yes, my USAA debit and credit. She said she advised me to cancel them and have new ones re-issued...so of course I said yes.

Seems USAA is slick to Paypals games.

[masterserg]

My 2 cents? Save coronaries and let it go. It is done and not worth the stress.

[RRsDJ]

Its frustraing yeah, but Im not letting Paypal get away with this, especially since theyre trying to defraud me and flat out lying about the whole case! USAA is handling it now so I wont have any more involvement other than submitting my documents to USAA. And it seems USAA has dealt with those liars before.

[cajunron]

The worst thing to me is, and correct me if I'm wrong, but for a dent to appear in a link like that, it would almost have to intentionally be HAMMERED against or by something heavy. Those links are solid, right? I doubt this was done accidentally. And yes, as Gaijin said, the buyer has shown what kind of person he is. Honor and integrity are not descriptions that fit him. But I doubt he could care less.

[RRsDJ]

The end links are solid but im almost positive the other links are hollow. Its a pretty deep dent and whoever did it knew they did it and seeing as the buyer removed the bracelet to have it tested it only makes sense it happened then.

For him to say it was an oversight on my part is just plain silly. And dealer or no dealer, if Im paying $6,400 for a watch Im going to look it over with a fine tooth comb and will find every flaw on it and there was never any mention of a dent.

[Knappo 1307]

Sorry to hear about this. Hopefully you can recover what you need through USAA. I have have lost faith in paypal and fleabay also....

[ralpie]

Originally Posted by rgdejong

I doubt he could care less.

(Off topic warning!)

Finally somebody used "could care less" correctly.

[Czechman]

Many years ago a friend told me that bankers are just gangsters who discovered it's safer to rob people with a briefcase than it is with a gun.

PayPal is no different than any other banking institution, they do what they want (anyone remember how this recession started?) and if you don't like it, too bad and screw you. The worse ones of all never go to jail, they don't even get arrested, they get jobs with the Fed.

Good luck. It'll be interesting to see how this plays out.

[brian8121]

Originally Posted by ralpie

(Off topic warning!)

Finally somebody used "could care less" correctly.

[financeman]

I have followed this from the very beginning and I am sorry that it has come to this. Hopefully USAA gets it handled for you