PO or Sub?

[c.rod]

well, they are 2 different watches. BUT im pretty sure almost everyone here would agree that the PO is a lot more bang for your buck, if not the most bang for your buck?

[htc8p]

Originally Posted by salty_snack

Better based on what???

Suffice to say both are great movements and will outlast the original owner with a little bit of maintenance along the way. I do find it amusing, however, how so many people have professed the co-axial to be the best thing ever... but don't know why except omega says so.

i am not going into a senseless debate with you. the silicone hair spring, the build, the looks, and the coaxial innovation are worth it.

[salty_snack]

Originally Posted by htc8p

i am not going into a senseless debate with you. the silicone hair spring, the build, the looks, and the coaxial innovation are worth it.

Lol. There isn't a debate to be had here because I don't think you have the knowledge to actually debate the issue.

Parachrom bleu vs silicon hairspring - nearly identical under normal use.

The build??? - nearly identical in the build, both are mass produced. In my experience the sub does have a slightly better fit.

The looks??? - these are tool watches and the 3135 isn't visible without removal of the case back so it's a non-issue.

The coaxial innovation - minimal improvement at best.

Basically what it comes down to is the 8500 and 3135 will perform nearly IDENTICALLY under nearly all conditions. So is the 8500 BETTER? In 99%+ of the users out there the answer is no, you could switch one with the other and no one would notice.

And the coaxial isn't the be all end all of innovative escapements. There actually are a number of new and old escapement designs out there that are much more interesting and innovative than the coaxial.

[The GMT Master]

Originally Posted by salty_snack

Lol. There isn't a debate to be had here because I don't think you have the knowledge to actually debate the issue.

Parachrom bleu vs silicon hairspring - nearly identical under normal use.

The build??? - nearly identical in the build, both are mass produced. In my experience the sub does have a slightly better fit.

The looks??? - these are tool watches and the 3135 isn't visible without removal of the case back so it's a non-issue.

The coaxial innovation - minimal improvement at best.

Basically what it comes down to is the 8500 and 3135 will perform nearly IDENTICALLY under nearly all conditions. So is the 8500 BETTER? In 99%+ of the users out there the answer is no, you could switch one with the other and no one would notice.

And the coaxial isn't the be all end all of innovative escapements. There actually are a number of new and old escapement designs out there that are much more interesting and innovative than the coaxial.

Well, the silicon hairspring is more resistant to shocks and always retains it shape, so it achieves better isochronism. As for Co-Axial, the second generation three level version is ridiculously stable as a timekeeper, and simply does not go wrong. I've been in the biz since the cal. 8500 was launched (2007) and I have never had one returned under warranty. I lost count a long time ago the number of cal. 3135s I've had returned under warranty. It really is that good. The cal. 3135 is a dinosaur by comparison

[The GMT Master]

Originally Posted by Preacher

Doubt it.

Knowing Omega, they'll get rid of the PO design completely for a full re-design once the PO starts to look dated (which it will imo). They'll probably change the name for the new version too.

But the Sub will still be around and mostly unchanged.

:)

Strange that the design for the Planet Ocean is pulled almost directly from their 1960s divers - bezel, arabics on the dial, the hour markers, the handset etc. It is, inherently, a "dated" design, or, as perhaps we should describe it, historically inspired. It's truer to the original dive concepts that Omega have than the current Sub is to the original

[Dream99]

Originally Posted by vitalsignsrn

You may be disappointed to find WOMEN wearing a PO...it does come in a 37.5mm for US women.

Sub is more iconic. Po is less expensive.

Exactly my point Omega cater for women by making this size watch for them

[Dream99]

Originally Posted by Presa canary

I'm not sure exactly what you're saying. But I think you're rooting in some way for omega? I guess due to the fact that woman wear the sub? I've personally seen more women wearing a po. Anyhow, the question is the po the new sub, and you're right, case dismissed. The sub is the most iconic dive/tool watch ever. period.

You are totally wrong. Try taking the Sub down to 600mtrs as the PO can handle, not the mere 300 mtrs for the Sub, Oh and the PO has a Helium escape valve as well. The Omega is a TRUE Divers watch, Coupled with Omega 4 year warranty against Rolex 2 years and Servicing is at least and probably over 8 years for the PO, Rolex state 4 years i think. That's why I say the PO is a far better watch than the Sub. Try one on you will see what i mean.

[Andad]

Originally Posted by The GMT Master

Well, the silicon hairspring is more resistant to shocks and always retains it shape, so it achieves better isochronism. As for Co-Axial, the second generation three level version is ridiculously stable as a timekeeper, and simply does not go wrong. I've been in the biz since the cal. 8500 was launched (2007) and I have never had one returned under warranty. I lost count a long time ago the number of cal. 3135s I've had returned under warranty. It really is that good. The cal. 3135 is a dinosaur by comparison

That's really good info Chris.

You should be selling Omega watches.

[Andad]

Originally Posted by Dream99

You are totally wrong. Try taking the Sub down to 600mtrs as the PO can handle, not the mere 300 mtrs for the Sub, Oh and the PO has a Helium escape valve as well. The Omega is a TRUE Divers watch, Coupled with Omega 4 year warranty against Rolex 2 years and Servicing is at least and probably over 8 years for the PO, Rolex state 4 years i think. That's why I say the PO is a far better watch than the Sub. Try one on you will see what i mean.

Try taking yourself down to 600mtrs mate.
Or try your helium escape valve in a deco chamber.
I'm quite happy watching a movie tonight.

[Dream99]

Originally Posted by directioneng

Try taking yourself down to 600mtrs mate.
Or try your helium escape valve in a deco chamber.
I'm quite happy watching a movie tonight.

Hi MAte. That's the build quality of a true divers watch Mate. Omega does what it says on the tin, Rolex does not but hey as long as its a rolex thats ok Right.

[cedargrove]

I bought the PO and love it, but if I didn't already have a GMT Master (not a diver but similar looks) I would have got the Sub. Both are good value watches, but the higher price of the Sub is justified by the higher quality.

[salty_snack]

Originally Posted by The GMT Master

Strange that the design for the Planet Ocean is pulled almost directly from their 1960s divers - bezel, arabics on the dial, the hour markers, the handset etc. It is, inherently, a "dated" design, or, as perhaps we should describe it, historically inspired. It's truer to the original dive concepts that Omega have than the current Sub is to the original

Pull up a picture of the sub 6204. You'll see that the sub has actually changed very little over the years. Sure the PO is "pulled from their 1960s divers" but the sub IS the 1950s diver.

Make no mistake the sub is a divers watch through and through conforming to iso 6425. The argument about the PO going to 600 m and the sub going to 300 m is a stupid one... It's like saying the PO isn't a "true" divers watch because the Ploprof goes to 1200 m. Sorry to burst your bubble, but they are both divers watches. Oh and the helium escape valve is present for saturation diving (not that anyone has ever used a PO in that manner) which can be done at many different depths, not just those below 300 m.

[TSW]

Each to their own...

[hpowders]

Buy what you want. Nothing will be decided here.

I'm happy with my Sub C. Many are happy with their PO's.

Forum posts will not convince you as to which watch you should purchase. Visits to your local Omega and Rolex AD's to try on each watch will.

[Presa canary]

Originally Posted by Dream99

You are totally wrong. Try taking the Sub down to 600mtrs as the PO can handle, not the mere 300 mtrs for the Sub, Oh and the PO has a Helium escape valve as well. The Omega is a TRUE Divers watch, Coupled with Omega 4 year warranty against Rolex 2 years and Servicing is at least and probably over 8 years for the PO, Rolex state 4 years i think. That's why I say the PO is a far better watch than the Sub. Try one on you will see what i mean.

I'm not to sure what I'm " totally wrong" about.... I simply answered the ops question. No, the po is not the new sub. That's a fact. I can see your love for the po/omega, and that's great man but don't claim I'm wrong, and then ramble on about the highlights of the po. There are plenty a wonderful
Watches out there, a lot will out shine the sub. But non of them will be the new sub... Oh, and I've tried on the po while deciding which of their cologne I liked, neither did anything for me. Be well

[Survivor]

I've owned both (well, its a DSSD, not a Sub) and a PO XL.......only kept one of them......guess which one???? Answer in my next post

[The GMT Master]

Originally Posted by salty_snack

Pull up a picture of the sub 6204. You'll see that the sub has actually changed very little over the years. Sure the PO is "pulled from their 1960s divers" but the sub IS the 1950s diver.

Make no mistake the sub is a divers watch through and through conforming to iso 6425. The argument about the PO going to 600 m and the sub going to 300 m is a stupid one... It's like saying the PO isn't a "true" divers watch because the Ploprof goes to 1200 m. Sorry to burst your bubble, but they are both divers watches. Oh and the helium escape valve is present for saturation diving (not that anyone has ever used a PO in that manner) which can be done at many different depths, not just those below 300 m.

At a glance it looks similar, but the ethos has changed. It's no longer a dive watch that can be worn every day, it's an every day watch that can be taken diving. There is no way that the new Sub was designed with a diver in mind - far too shiny, not enough contrast, and you just need to look at the bezel for it to move out of position. I know as well as you do that water resistance plays next to no importance as to how good a dive watch is, nor did I ever imply it. I'm also fully aware of what a saturation dive is all about

It's simply a case of design - that's where Tudor has done so well with the Pelagos. That is a watch that is truer to the original design brief of the Submariner - ultra tough, ultra visible, and using the best technology available. The clasp on that is magnificently clever, and it deserves far more credence than it gets. The Pelagos is, in my opinion, the true successor of the Submariner, the new version is nothing more than a caricature in my opinion

[Dream99]

Originally Posted by Survivor

I've owned both (well, its a DSSD, not a Sub) and a PO XL.......only kept one of them......guess which one???? Answer in my next post

That's not a Submariner you brought, far from it. that's a proper divers watch. a very uncomfortable one to wear but a divers watch for sure.
But remember your DSSD is double the price of the amazing PO. is it really that much better? a better match to your DSSD is the Ploprof 1200m for diving

[salty_snack]

Originally Posted by The GMT Master

At a glance it looks similar, but the ethos has changed. It's no longer a dive watch that can be worn every day, it's an every day watch that can be taken diving. There is no way that the new Sub was designed with a diver in mind - far too shiny, not enough contrast, and you just need to look at the bezel for it to move out of position. I know as well as you do that water resistance plays next to no importance as to how good a dive watch is, nor did I ever imply it. I'm also fully aware of what a saturation dive is all about

It's simply a case of design - that's where Tudor has done so well with the Pelagos. That is a watch that is truer to the original design brief of the Submariner - ultra tough, ultra visible, and using the best technology available. The clasp on that is magnificently clever, and it deserves far more credence than it gets. The Pelagos is, in my opinion, the true successor of the Submariner, the new version is nothing more than a caricature in my opinion

First off, the Pelagos is a great watch. No question about that.

But really, the ethos has changed? An everyday watch that can be taken diving? And all this because its too shiny. Your kidding me right?

The water proof rating was directed more at dream99 who seems to believe that no 300 m dive watch is actually a dive watch at all.

[Dream99]

Originally Posted by salty_snack

First off, the Pelagos is a great watch. No question about that.

But really, the ethos has changed? An everyday watch that can be taken diving? And all this because its too shiny. Your kidding me right?

The water proof rating was directed more at dream99 who seems to believe that no 300 m dive watch is actually a dive watch at all.

You seem to be missing my point. The Omega outshines the Sub in so many ways besides being able to go 300 mtrs deeper, By that I mean:- Power reserve, warranty, servicing intervals, helium escape valve, build quality, movement quality and yes I think it is a true divers watch at at a realistic price. That's my point about this debate over 2 great watches. No contest between the two in my eyes.

[Survivor]

Originally Posted by Dream99

That's not a Submariner you brought, far from it. that's a proper divers watch. a very uncomfortable one to wear but a divers watch for sure.
But remember your DSSD is double the price of the amazing PO. is it really that much better? a better match to your DSSD is the Ploprof 1200m for diving

I have a Ploprof as well and the answer is a resounding yes.........the DSSD is that much better, in virtually everyway..........looks, fit and even comfort.............nevertheless, still love my PO and Ploprof.....

[DennisJ]

Simply perfect.
I love wearing this one!

[1William]

Nice watch but not for me. The sub is the watch for me.

[JB7]

Originally Posted by DennisJ

Dear I say...

PO any day. What a fantastic watch. In fact the PO is the new Sub!
How about that?

That's the one with QoS etched on crystal isn't it, so not the standard. Not sure I'm mad on that PPK dial?

Originally Posted by SearChart

resale value isn't as good as the sub and it's not as iconic.

Maybe not as iconic, but that's not always a bad thing, It just means it's not as common, but my 5 year old PO is worth more now than what I paid for it new, if I were to sell, so I would get back more than I paid for it, so that isn't true at all.

Originally Posted by hpowders

Rolex needs to up their game as to their movements? The Sub C has a terrific movement. After 4 1/2 months my Sub C loses an average of 1.4 seconds per day. The PO does any better?

not better, but my PO is +1 a day on a 2500C movement and I'm sure it's the same for many other owners of the PO. Wasn't like that when new though, was more of a +3, but in time they do improve with age, as long as you keep wearing them.

Having said all that in favour of the PO, I love the new Sub, but the squareness jutting out at the lugs is the only thing that puts me off

[hpowders]

+1 is very good. You can't go wrong with either watch.

I'm truly grateful at this stage of the game that I can afford any of these nice watches and am not just a "casual observer" of this forum!

[salty_snack]

Originally Posted by Dream99

You seem to be missing my point. The Omega outshines the Sub in so many ways besides being able to go 300 mtrs deeper, By that I mean:- Power reserve, warranty, servicing intervals, helium escape valve, build quality, movement quality and yes I think it is a true divers watch at at a realistic price. That's my point about this debate over 2 great watches. No contest between the two in my eyes.

Wow Dream99... you've really had a lot of the PO kool-aid.

Power reserve - A 10 hour difference in power reserve is trivial. If it was a 2-day vs 8-day then that would be something.

warranty - Again, trivial once it expires and I plan on spending much more time with my watches after the warranty expires than during the warranty period.

Service interval - Omega used to claim 8 to 10 years but backpedaled on that rather quickly and has it at 5 to 7 years... which is what rolex says as well! Imagine that... changing out the lever escapement wheel for a coaxial escapement wheel doesn't do anything to improve the service interval of ANY OTHER part of the watch. Hmmmm

MANUAL helium escape valve - When was the last time you went saturation diving? I've never gone, nor do I plan to ever go saturation diving. Thus, I don't need a watch with a helium escape valve and I'm not such a poser that I would want one. Having never gone below 100 ft, the sub works just fine.

Build quality - Is that a joke? I stopped in at the Omega boutique last night to have another look at the PO8500 in person. I wasn't trying to be overly critical or nitpick but, no joke, one of the things I noticed after just a few minutes with it was a sizable gap between the bracelet endlink and the lugs! I asked if that was normal and was told that is was... they have to have space to fit the endlink. Um... my sub doesn't have a gap and neither do any of my old Japanese quarts watches that were purchased 20+ years ago at a price 1/20 or less of the Planet Ocean. The surface brushing is standard for a watch of the POs price point.

Movement quality - I say it once more... there is no practical difference. Both are great movements.

I will say that the new clasp on the sub blows the PO's clasp out of the water. No question, no contest, not even in the same ballpark.

If your not saturation diving, either will work just fine as "true" dive watches. And yes, "true" diving does not have to be saturation diving.

So put down the PO kool-aid and step away. Its certainly not bad but it is really not that amazing either.

Originally Posted by JB7

but my 5 year old PO is worth more now than what I paid for it new, if I were to sell, so I would get back more than I paid for it, so that isn't true at all.

What was the going price for a PO 2500 new? I don't recall. I see them going for the mid $2Ks all day long and if you look hard enough and are patient you can pick one up for the low $2ks. (especially if your looking for the orange with leather)

[hpowders]

Love my Sub C bracelet. Quite an improvement over the previous one. More comfortable, IMO than that of the PO.

[Dream99]

Originally Posted by salty_snack

Wow Dream99... you've really had a lot of the PO kool-aid.

Power reserve - A 10 hour difference in power reserve is trivial. If it was a 2-day vs 8-day then that would be something.

warranty - Again, trivial once it expires and I plan on spending much more time with my watches after the warranty expires than during the warranty period.

Service interval - Omega used to claim 8 to 10 years but backpedaled on that rather quickly and has it at 5 to 7 years... which is what rolex says as well! Imagine that... changing out the lever escapement wheel for a coaxial escapement wheel doesn't do anything to improve the service interval of ANY OTHER part of the watch. Hmmmm

You need to through away those rose tinted glasses my friend

MANUAL helium escape valve - When was the last time you went saturation diving? I've never gone, nor do I plan to ever go saturation diving. Thus, I don't need a watch with a helium escape valve and I'm not such a poser that I would want one. Having never gone below 100 ft, the sub works just fine.

Build quality - Is that a joke? I stopped in at the Omega boutique last night to have another look at the PO8500 in person. I wasn't trying to be overly critical or nitpick but, no joke, one of the things I noticed after just a few minutes with it was a sizable gap between the bracelet endlink and the lugs! I asked if that was normal and was told that is was... they have to have space to fit the endlink. Um... my sub doesn't have a gap and neither do any of my old Japanese quarts watches that were purchased 20+ years ago at a price 1/20 or less of the Planet Ocean. The surface brushing is standard for a watch of the POs price point.

Movement quality - I say it once more... there is no practical difference. Both are great movements.

I will say that the new clasp on the sub blows the PO's clasp out of the water. No question, no contest, not even in the same ballpark.

If your not saturation diving, either will work just fine as "true" dive watches. And yes, "true" diving does not have to be saturation diving.

So put down the PO kool-aid and step away. Its certainly not bad but it is really not that amazing either.






What was the going price for a PO 2500 new? I don't recall. I see them going for the mid $2Ks all day long and if you look hard enough and are patient you can pick one up for the low $2ks. (especially if your looking for the orange with leather)

You need to through away those rose tinted glasses my friend, you are so blinkered by the myth of Rolex. I've also tried on a Sub and the clasp would not shut properly, they had another, so I brought that one only to find it was so bad at time keeping accuracy I got rid of it and that was last only year. So... Rolex no thank you.......... Omega definitely YES please, every day of the week

[improviz]

Originally Posted by salty_snack

Wow Dream99... you've really had a lot of the PO kool-aid.

Power reserve - A 10 hour difference in power reserve is trivial. If it was a 2-day vs 8-day then that would be something.

Subjective. I think a 20-25% increase in reserve is nice, and plus it gives you over two full days, which is nice if you have several watches in rotation, as 40 hours means that on the second day it'll die in the middle of the night, so the added cushion is nice.

Originally Posted by salty_snack

warranty - Again, trivial once it expires and I plan on spending much more time with my watches after the warranty expires than during the warranty period.

Not trivial to me: I just had one of my Explorer II's die with about one month of warranty left on it, requiring a full service which was covered under warranty. It happens, and the two years' extra warranty period is definitely not "trivial" if it ends up saving you several hundred dollars in servicing costs, in the event one is not as lucky (so to speak) as I was in having it fail within a two year window.

Originally Posted by salty_snack

Service interval - Omega used to claim 8 to 10 years but backpedaled on that rather quickly and has it at 5 to 7 years... which is what rolex says as well! Imagine that... changing out the lever escapement wheel for a coaxial escapement wheel doesn't do anything to improve the service interval of ANY OTHER part of the watch. Hmmmm

Omega's website still states the coax has a longer service interval than their other watches. They have a blanket recommendation of 5 years for their watches as a rule of thumb including the standard ETA movements, so for both statements to be true the coax would have to be longer than 5, (in fact when contacted with this question, an Omega rep stated 6 to 8 years, quoted in this post), so 7 is not an unreasonable estimate, which is 40% longer than Rolex's, fwiw....otoh there are plenty of reports here of Rolex owners having gone far beyond that without ill effects, time will tell if this is also true wrt the coax movements (though in so doing one does run risk of higher servicing costs via part replacements down the line...).

Originally Posted by salty_snack

MANUAL helium escape valve - When was the last time you went saturation diving? I've never gone, nor do I plan to ever go saturation diving. Thus, I don't need a watch with a helium escape valve and I'm not such a poser that I would want one. Having never gone below 100 ft, the sub works just fine.

For those who do go to greater depths and wish to wear their watch while doing so, however, the PO clearly has the superior depth rating, dismissing it doesn't change it.

Originally Posted by salty_snack

Build quality - Is that a joke? I stopped in at the Omega boutique last night to have another look at the PO8500 in person. I wasn't trying to be overly critical or nitpick but, no joke, one of the things I noticed after just a few minutes with it was a sizable gap between the bracelet endlink and the lugs! I asked if that was normal and was told that is was... they have to have space to fit the endlink. Um... my sub doesn't have a gap and neither do any of my old Japanese quarts watches that were purchased 20+ years ago at a price 1/20 or less of the Planet Ocean. The surface brushing is standard for a watch of the POs price point.

Don't know which one you looked at, but on either of my PO's (LM LE at 42mm and the 45mm when I put bracelet on it) the bracelet fits flawlessly, and, like the Rolexes I own, there is no discernible gap nor is there any more play in either brand over the other. In fact in both cases, the bracelet is quite frankly a major PITA to change due to these tight tolerances, and must be done with extreme care to avoid scratching the piss out of it.

Both the PO and Sub have high quality satin brushing, the Sub's higher nickel content (904L) give it a brighter appearance, but they're both gorgeous and very brilliantly-finished watches in my opinion (though I like others don't like the more squared-off appearance of the new Sub C, which is why I got a 16600 instead; had they gone with a slightly narrower lug width a'la the GMT IIc I would probably have gotten one of those instead, oh well).

Originally Posted by salty_snack

Movement quality - I say it once more... there is no practical difference. Both are great movements.

Agreed, though frankly the height of the 8500-equipped is a bit much to me.

Originally Posted by salty_snack

I will say that the new clasp on the sub blows the PO's clasp out of the water. No question, no contest, not even in the same ballpark.

Yes. Omega's clasps are great in terms of their feel and simplicity to operate, but the lack of a fine adjust other than adding/removing half links (particularly on the 2500s where friction pins were used instead of screws, making it just that much more "fun" to resize) is moronic in my view and is inexcusable in a watch at this price point. Even the old Rolex tuna can clasps could be adjusted with a toothpick, which still beats the crap out of having to add/remove links.

Originally Posted by salty_snack

If your not saturation diving, either will work just fine as "true" dive watches. And yes, "true" diving does not have to be saturation diving.

So put down the PO kool-aid and step away. Its certainly not bad but it is really not that amazing either.

Well, that's subjective as some people think it is amazing while Subs aren't, others the reverse, and still others (myself included) like them both, but in any case I certainly think it's a viable alternative to the Sub, for those who for whatever reason don't wish to purchase one, or just want a bit of variety.

Originally Posted by salty_snack

What was the going price for a PO 2500 new? I don't recall. I see them going for the mid $2Ks all day long and if you look hard enough and are patient you can pick one up for the low $2ks. (especially if your looking for the orange with leather)

Cost-of-ownership wise the Rolex holds its value better as a percentage of *MSRP*, but Omegas can be had at substantially higher discounts initially, and in my experience if you buy and hold the PO or the Sub at a typical market price for several years and take reasonably good care of it, depreciation costs will be pretty much nil for either one.

For example the older POs you see in the 2's had SRP in the mid 3's, so if you got at a 25% discount (30 was not all that difficult to find), you paid in the mid 2's for it, so they're more or less selling for what they cost...by comparison M series Subs listed out at $6K and discounts were much smaller (if any), and are now selling in the mid to hi 5's, so again depreciation is basically nil.

Anyway there's no resolution here, I think that in terms of "street cred" Rolex's superior brand recognition gives it an edge here, but Omega could close that gap if they spend more $ on advertising and narrow their focus a bit (limited editions are many, but this doesn't seem to have hurt AP much, so will be interesting to watch this unfold), but they've still got a hill to climb. Bottom line is that there's always lots of subjectivity in this sort of thing, main thing is that the owners are happy with their purchases, which generally seems to be the case with both of these brands.

[salty_snack]

Originally Posted by Dream99

You need to through away those rose tinted glasses my friend, you are so blinkered by the myth of Rolex. I've also tried on a Sub and the clasp would not shut properly, they had another, so I brought that one only to find it was so bad at time keeping accuracy I got rid of it and that was last only year. So... Rolex no thank you.......... Omega definitely YES please, every day of the week

I'm not saying the sub or Rolex in general is the be all end all of the watch world. In fact far from it. Omega and the PO specifically are nothing special, really.