It’s real simple... Tudor is the new Rolex

[Polarbears]

Friends, waitlists, price increases, scarcity, etc.

Rolex is going upmarket. Exclusivity. Sell less units at higher prices. Same profit. Rolex=Patek Eventually.

Tudor is the brand that people will aspire to own. Rolex if you’re wealthy.

This is the strategy. It’s the reason you have a Tudor Pepsi and a Rolex Pepsi both with in house movements, 70 hour power reserves.

There is no way management would allow such in house scalping if this wasn’t to move both brands up market with Tudor replacing Rolex for the aspirational middle class.

It’s clever yet obvious and slightly cynical but it’s happening.

[Hogtown Fatty]

I agree.
Rolex is taking all the fun out of it for the true horological fans, making it impossible to attain any of their new watches even if you've got the money ready to go. Having the money ready to buy could not matter less-- there's millions of other shmucks with the same resources ($) ready to jump on the bandwagon--, but what does matter is knowing the secret handshake or the right people or buying up enough of the old crap at your AD that nobody else wants... maybe then they'll consider letting you in on one of the new watches. The new GMT II was announced just yesterday and already several AD's are saying list is closed at five years... I mean, COME ON!!! The AD's do as they please and tell you 'approximate' waitlist lengths not because they don't know when they'll be getting the watches (this is literally Swiss watchmaking... if they know one thing it's how to keep time and track), but because they're anticipating some dude with deeper pockets than yours will come along and buy his way into the opportunity to buy the Daytona or Sky-D or GMT or whatever other ss watch is in vogue that year. I just posted about this in another thread, but will repeat here... I know my own worth well enough and will not support this. I have enough integrity to not care so much about a watch that I resort to begging, paying over retail, etc. Lets be objective, folks... they're just watches... and I love them to death, but it's just ridiculous at this point. Rolex couldn't care less about us little guys.

[The Joker]

What's the new Tudor then?

[bp1000]

I’ve been saying this for sometime but this week I’m not so sure.

Ok the Pepsi gmt from rolex is priced strong but the Tudor gmt (a cracking watch) is unbelievably cheap; relatively speaking.

I can only assume they want tudor to be a premium lifestyle brand. Especially when you look at the brand ambassadors.

That Tudor infsct all B.B. are great value.

I suspect it will take some time for the prices to creep up and to slot in near where rolex are now.

Once that happens they will alienate the lifestyle market; the ones who previously bought breitling and tag. Interested to see this play out.

Big fan

[AK797]

No this is a demand bubble, when demand falls off then we will know what Rolex's strategy is regarding supply and price. At the moment their strategy has been to watch and do nothing, other than try and stop flippers, until they see some sustained market changes.

[Polarbears]

Originally Posted by The Joker

What's the new Tudor then?

They don’t need one. They pump out enough Tudors that the used market is the affordable Tudor. That’s why I don’t understand purchasing Tudor at retail. You will lose $1000 or more. The only Tudor to retain or gain value has been the Black Bay ETA Rose Black Bezel but those had only a few thousand made so it’s not the typical Tudor.

[Polarbears]

Originally Posted by AK797

No this is a demand bubble, when demand falls off then we will know what Rolex's strategy is regarding supply and price. At the moment their strategy has been to watch and do nothing, other than try and stop flippers, until they see some sustained market changes.

Following your thought process explain the dual Pepsi’s. It’s not a coincidence.
My AD yesterday said if I want a Rolex Pepsi I’ll wait at least 2 years.

[thomaswentworth]

Not with their winding crown and honestly putting the word rotor on the dial. What is the purpose of that? Rolex is King. Tudor is the King's little brother trying to do things a little differently and at a lower price point to see if the market place can be broadened. New Tudors are starter Rolexes that are done in a way that will never allow them to be confused with a Rolex.

[Polarbears]

Originally Posted by thomaswentworth

Not with their winding crown and honestly putting the word rotor on the dial. What is the purpose of that? Rolex is King. Tudor is the King's little brother trying to do things a little differently and at a lower price point to see if the market place can be broadened. New Tudors are starter Rolexes that are done in a way that will never allow them to be confused with a Rolex.

You’ve missed the point.

[thomaswentworth]

Originally Posted by Polarbears

You’ve missed the point.

I just don't agree... I don't think Rolex wants to destroy the most respected brand in the world so they can convert into becoming the little brother to Tudor. Even the name is reminiscent of someone who needs a tutor... a younger person.

[OJONES]

Rolex has no more aim to be Patek that Mercedes has about becoming Bentley. They’re more concerned about becoming too common.

[lecorsaire]

Tudor is what it is. From their marketing you can clearly see they are targeting blue-collar watch customers and younger people who don’t have Rolex money but want a quality dive watch as close as possible to the real deal. The vintage asthetics are there to make them more appealing. Words like tool watch, a campaign like “Born to Dare,” using Beckham modeling the Black Bay with full sleeves. I’m not saying Rolex buyers don’t buy Tudor, just that Rolex customers aren’t their target.

The tool watch today is a misnomer. Professional divers are using computers. Yes, half a century ago these watches were used for their intended purpose but that hasn’t been the case for a long time.

[Polarbears]

Originally Posted by thomaswentworth

I just don't agree... I don't think Rolex wants to destroy the most respected brand in the world so they can convert into becoming the little brother to Tudor. Even the name is reminiscent of someone who needs a tutor... a younger person.

Your response was tied to Aesthetics and the original history of Tudor. This is a new Tudor. This is not a baby brother reusing left over parts. Tudor is the aspirational brand to be and Rolex is for the wealthy. The average person can no longer aspire to own a Rolex. It’s almost impossible and each year getting further out of reach.

[Polarbears]

Originally Posted by OJONES

Rolex has no more aim to be Patek that Mercedes has about becoming Bentley. They’re more concerned about becoming too common.

Not aesthetically but exclusivity and stability within the rising prices.

[dmash]

LOL what?

[Polarbears]

Originally Posted by lecorsaire

Tudor is what it is. From their marketing you can clearly see they are targeting blue-collar watch customers and younger people who don’t have Rolex money but want a quality dive watch as close as possible to the real deal. The vintage asthetics are there to make them more appealing. Words like tool watch, a campaign like “Born to Dare,” using Beckham modeling the Black Bay with full sleeves. I’m not saying Rolex buyers don’t buy Tudor, just that Rolex customers aren’t their target.

The tool watch today is a misnomer. Professional divers are using computers. Yes, half a century ago these watches were used for their intended purpose but that hasn’t been the case for a long time.

You just described Rolex 10-20 years ago. Tudor is the new Rolex stands.

[Old Expat Beast]

Originally Posted by thomaswentworth

Not with their winding crown and honestly putting the word rotor on the dial. What is the purpose of that? Rolex is King. Tudor is the King's little brother trying to do things a little differently and at a lower price point to see if the market place can be broadened. New Tudors are starter Rolexes that are done in a way that will never allow them to be confused with a Rolex.

Heritage. It's been there since the early 1950s.

[lecorsaire]

Tudor is a reference to England where Wilsdorf founded Rolex. It’s a great name imo and fitting tribute to the land where Wilsdorf became a success.

[HL65]

You don’t know the strategy unless you are privy to the C suite of Rolex HQ nor do any of us. I agree with you Neil as clearly evidenced over the last 6 months or so. How long this continues who knows but Rolex makes a lot of watches and the bulk of them are sub $15,000. When you look at a Patek their sporty offerings as in 5711 or 5167 makes up a small portion of their sales not the bulk like Rolex. Rolex is not transitioning to the top tier market as in Patek, AP, or Lange. Rolex bread and butter is in SS and TT Professional/sports watches from DJ to Submariner etc. Their history is built upon and tied to those very watches with the upper pieces as in DD’s being the upper end of their market. They change slowly and never have strayed far from their original or classic style and recognizable look. I think Tudor is doing a great job in their market and Rolex has clearly made that a serious competitor in their price range. So I do disagree with your thoughts but that’s ok to each his own. In my 30 years of collecting Rolex I have learned one thing and that is that things change and with Rolex very slowly. So Tudor is the same Tudor and Rolex is Rolex. That’s a good thing and may everyone get the watches they want.

PS I am still having fun as long as my AD loves me not Rolex. They just need to keep making watches I love!

[Polarbears]

Originally Posted by lecorsaire

Tudor is a reference to England where Wilsdorf founded Rolex. It’s a great name imo and fitting tribute to the land where Wilsdorf became a success.

Correct. But it’s now the aspirational brand not the starter brand.

[Watch This]

Originally Posted by Hogtown Fatty

I agree.
Rolex is taking all the fun out of it for the true horological fans, making it impossible to attain any of their new watches even if you've got the money ready to go. Having the money ready to buy could not matter less-- there's millions of other shmucks with the same resources ($) ready to jump on the bandwagon--, but what does matter is knowing the secret handshake or the right people or buying up enough of the old crap at your AD that nobody else wants... maybe then they'll consider letting you in on one of the new watches. The new GMT II was announced just yesterday and already several AD's are saying list is closed at five years... I mean, COME ON!!! The AD's do as they please and tell you 'approximate' waitlist lengths not because they don't know when they'll be getting the watches (this is literally Swiss watchmaking... if they know one thing it's how to keep time and track), but because they're anticipating some dude with deeper pockets than yours will come along and buy his way into the opportunity to buy the Daytona or Sky-D or GMT or whatever other ss watch is in vogue that year. I just posted about this in another thread, but will repeat here... I know my own worth well enough and will not support this. I have enough integrity to not care so much about a watch that I resort to begging, paying over retail, etc. Lets be objective, folks... they're just watches... and I love them to death, but it's just ridiculous at this point. Rolex couldn't care less about us little guys.

True.

[Polarbears]

Originally Posted by Hogtown Fatty

I agree.
Rolex is taking all the fun out of it for the true horological fans, making it impossible to attain any of their new watches even if you've got the money ready to go. Having the money ready to buy could not matter less-- there's millions of other shmucks with the same resources ($) ready to jump on the bandwagon--, but what does matter is knowing the secret handshake or the right people or buying up enough of the old crap at your AD that nobody else wants... maybe then they'll consider letting you in on one of the new watches. The new GMT II was announced just yesterday and already several AD's are saying list is closed at five years... I mean, COME ON!!! The AD's do as they please and tell you 'approximate' waitlist lengths not because they don't know when they'll be getting the watches (this is literally Swiss watchmaking... if they know one thing it's how to keep time and track), but because they're anticipating some dude with deeper pockets than yours will come along and buy his way into the opportunity to buy the Daytona or Sky-D or GMT or whatever other ss watch is in vogue that year. I just posted about this in another thread, but will repeat here... I know my own worth well enough and will not support this. I have enough integrity to not care so much about a watch that I resort to begging, paying over retail, etc. Lets be objective, folks... they're just watches... and I love them to death, but it's just ridiculous at this point. Rolex couldn't care less about us little guys.

This is true but you forgot the element called “why even sell to the public”. Grays exist because they are willing to buy quantity at retail and above. This is why Daytona’s are so scarce. AD’s are selling them to grays above retail, thus creating the $20,000 SS Daytona which then causes everyone to sign up for one with their AD hoping to pay full retail which is a bargain which only further clogs the distribution.

[lecorsaire]

Originally Posted by Polarbears

You just described Rolex 10-20 years ago. Tudor is the new Rolex stands.

What are you talking about? Rolex was never just a one watch company. How were 18k Day-Dates and Datejusts (the 116238 has now been discontinued btw) or triple date Killys ever meant for the working class? That they marketed SS watches for divers, pilots and later on race car drivers doesn’t mean that this was the target market. They always marketed the brand as the best watch you can buy. While nothing they sell now is affordable this is a consequence of mechanical watches becoming luxury items due to quartz and the digital age.

[AK797]

Originally Posted by Polarbears

Following your thought process explain the dual Pepsi’s. It’s not a coincidence.
My AD yesterday said if I want a Rolex Pepsi I’ll wait at least 2 years.

The wait list is the AD's interpretation of how many he expects to get and how many he expects to be on a waiting list. 2 years is a pretty standard reply doing the basic maths and has far more to do with high demand than restricted supply, it will be supplied like last year's Basel models. As I said this is demand led not supply led, Rolex did not see the bumper 2017 coming any more than anyone else did due to QE, stock and cryptomania etc, and more quick millionaires were made than probably ever before and the unadulterated proliferation of social media has enticed so many people to spend on visual trinkets like a Rolex.

[HL65]

Originally Posted by Polarbears

This is true but you forgot the element called “why even sell to the public”. Grays exist because they are willing to buy quantity at retail and above. This is why Daytona’s are so scarce. AD’s are selling them to grays above retail, thus creating the $20,000 SS Daytona which then causes everyone to sign up for one with their AD which only further clogs the distribution.

They are not doing that in the US - absolute nonsense. I can’t speak outside of USA but it’s not happening here. Sure some AD’s make grey dealers buy other watches if they want Daytona’s and other sought after pieces but they aren’t risking their Rolex line to do that. There is enough pressure on them now from Rolex tomeven sell to grey dealers let alone above retail. Rolex is smart company and they have and will continue to clamp down. Part of what has been driving prices up if you have been paying attention.

[Polarbears]

Originally Posted by HL65

They are not doing that in the US - absolute nonsense. I can’t speak outside of USA but it’s not happening here. Sure some AD’s make grey dealers buy other watches if they want Daytona’s and other sought after pieces but they aren’t risking their Rolex line to do that. There is enough pressure on them now from Rolex tomeven sell to grey dealers let alone above retail. Rolex is smart company and they have and will continue to clamp down. Part of what has been driving prices up if you have been paying attention.

With respect I know an AD in (location deleted) who does this. I won’t get into specifics but it’s a known situation. Rolex wants to shift the full line. If your shifting the full line I don’t think they truly police the “how”. If you just move certain models I think they do sense some concern and monitor the AD. The trick is to sell all models.

[Polarbears]

Originally Posted by AK797

The wait list is the AD's interpretation of how many he expects to get and how many he expects to be on a waiting list. 2 years is a pretty standard reply doing the basic maths and has far more to do with high demand than restricted supply, it will be supplied like last year's Basel.

I understand. But how can you aspire to purchase something that doesn’t exist? How do they manage to make enough Tudors to more than meet demand but fail at doing so with Rolex?

[Hogtown Fatty]

Originally Posted by Polarbears

This is true but you forgot the element called “why even sell to the public”. Grays exist because they are willing to buy quantity at retail and above. This is why Daytona’s are so scarce. AD’s are selling them to grays above retail, thus creating the $20,000 SS Daytona which then causes everyone to sign up for one with their AD hoping to pay full retail which is a bargain which only further clogs the distribution.

so, simply put, it comes down to the greed of the AD's... that's what i suspected. they will either sell for retail to the lucky few who've earned (read: bought) the opportunity or to greys for above retail. i really wish there were some way for rolex to monitor this... wishful thinking, i know, will never happen...

[AK797]

Tudor are certainly benefitting from this Rolex popularity and forums like this confirm it is a very good product and so in its price range it is probably becoming the star name, and as Ken says Rolex are trying to do the same, they are not trying to become Patek but the very best in the mid-luxury market.

[the_natural]

This thread is reminding me how irritated I am with Rolex. I do hope it's just a short-term supply issue, as suggested above, even if there isn't anything I personally want right now (maybe because of the aforementioned irritation souring things, who knows).