Bought Rolex but received Empty Box--HELP

[Abdullah71601]

Originally Posted by dmash

Lol sure bud.

point 1- of course he has rights, my point still stands that absolutely no way he's winning this in court. That's pretty much just a fact. That's not a 'whack' opinion, that's just how the law works. no judge is going to award a $9000 case to a buyer who claims he didn't receive a watch, after the seller sent, it shows the appropriate weight, and has touched probably 100 pairs of hands since then.

point 2- you're comparing a high volume dealer to a private individual who might sell one watch a year. A $9000 loss to an individual making $50,000 a year is a completely different story than a business. or do you not comprehend that difference? he didn't purchase from Takuya or DavidSW, he purchased from a normal guy. and quite frankly, i'm completely okay with you never purchasing anything from me, as you come across as somebody who is difficult to deal with.

point 3- how will the seller 'know' there wasn't a scam? Filing a police report means absolutely nothing to a scammer, and most high dollar Paypal scams require this nowadays anyways. This in absolutely no way deters a potential scammer. Do you have experience with 'empty box' or 'incorrect item' claims against you as a seller? I've done a ton of volume in the past, and I have plenty of experiences with this.

Scammers don't bring in the police. Both sides have a story to tell, but other than the CYA thread the seller started, they seem to be on the same page. You on the other hand, have already accused the OP of fraud in the Who's Who thread. That is worrisome.

[dmash]

Originally Posted by Abdullah71601

Scammers don't bring in the police. Both sides have a story to tell, but other than the CYA thread the seller started, they seem to be on the same page. You on the other hand, have already accused the OP of fraud in the Who's Who thread. That is worrisome.

Lol. I never accused the buyer of fraud. Perhaps you need to stop playing forum police and actually read what was written. You're making false statements about myself if you want to get technical, so perhaps you should edit your accusatory remarks?

Honestly, for somebody who claims to have been ex-LE, you seem really naive about how common these scams happen in modern time. and to make comments such as 'scammers dont bring in the police'. Sure. You're making a bunch of generalized statements, I'm speaking from experience. I've had police reports filed for missing items, IC3 complaints filed.....and in the end, multiple times, it was found out that the buyer was scamming. I'm not regurgitating info I've read online, I've dealt with these situations firsthand.

I will happily discuss logistics of this with you, as all I did was give a differing side to a situation which was coming across wholly on the buyer's side, in my opinion, unfairly. You're the one coming on here attacking me for purely giving a different opinion, and making a statement regarding the 'seek an attorney advice', as it's honestly pointless and a waste of money. If you think it’s appropriate to respond by saying my opinion is ‘whack’ and you wouldn’t do business with me, simply based on that, then go right ahead.

Also, as stated in my previous response that went unanswered, I think it's ridiculous that you are acting as if $9000 is chump change for some normal individual selling his watch on here, and that they should simply cough that up no problem prior to an insurance claim being paid out. Especially when a fair amount of people will sell a Rolex when in a bind and need the funds for a certain purpose. You do realize, the UPS investigation into this, is to verify if fraud IS potentially being committed? This is further reason why I made the statement that a seller should not simply send a refund until the case is investigated. It's as if you're sitting here trying to guilt trip the seller into sending a refund prior to the case being properly concluded, by making the comments you do.

Though, at this point, it's rude to clam up this thread further by engaging in a pissing match with you, you can PM me if you want to discuss further. I will however, ask that you do not falsely accuse me of things again, and properly edit your remarks about me to reflect the truth of the matter.

[tommy91]

Originally Posted by dmash

Lol sure bud.

point 1- of course he has rights, my point still stands that absolutely no way he's winning this in court. That's pretty much just a fact. That's not a 'whack' opinion, that's just how the law works. no judge is going to award a $9000 case to a buyer who claims he didn't receive a watch, after the seller sent, it shows the appropriate weight, and has touched probably 100 pairs of hands since then.

point 2- you're comparing a high volume dealer to a private individual who might sell one watch a year. A $9000 loss to an individual making $50,000 a year is a completely different story than a business. or do you not comprehend that difference? he didn't purchase from Takuya or DavidSW, he purchased from a normal guy. Do you think it's easy for somebody to just cough up $9k out of pocket, or pay out $9k after insurance claim is made? This is the real world, everybody doesn't have villas and yachts, that could be a HUGE amount to the seller, who perhaps was selling the watch and was in a bind. and quite frankly, i'm completely okay with you never purchasing anything from me, as you come across as somebody who is difficult to deal with.

point 3- how will the seller 'know' there wasn't a scam? Filing a police report means absolutely nothing to a scammer, and most high dollar Paypal scams require this nowadays anyways. This in absolutely no way deters a potential scammer. Do you have experience with 'empty box' or 'incorrect item' claims against you as a seller? I've done a ton of volume in the past, and I have plenty of experiences with this.


Your entire post honestly reiterates my point. You're defaulting to defending a buyer, who you have absolutely no idea is actually scamming the seller.

I agree, you can't just go refunding because someone filed a police report. It happens all the time, people travel and file police reports to claim on insurance and keep the watch. It needs to be investigated first, this is the risk you take for buying bank wire or selling bank wire to a person you don't actually know.

[Andad]

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[dmash]

Originally Posted by tommy91

I agree, you can't just go refunding because someone filed a police report. It happens all the time, people travel and file police reports to claim on insurance and keep the watch. It needs to be investigated first, this is the risk you take for buying bank wire or selling bank wire to a person you don't actually know.

I just don't want the seller to read this thread and possibly question 'am I doing the right thing?' based on how multiple people were saying things like 'get a lawyer and go to court' or 'the seller should refund immediately'. He's proceeding exactly as he should.

[GoingPlaces]

This has aways been fear of mine, only work with established and highly credible sellers.

[antbkny]

Guys, whenever you're shipping a watch or anything of value please pack it up yourself and dont let the shipper know what it is! ship discretely and insure!

[Lime]

To me if looks like the buyer is out of luck. No way of proving apartment staff,etc did not lift it out and re-seal. Sorry to hear about this.

[goldfixer21]

What a mess this is. I agree with those that say never ship a watch via UPS...ever. I always use USPS, my business insurance covers up to $25,000 if I use Express or Registered.

[123Blueface]

UPS scales are very accurate.
What was the weight of the package upon receipt by you?
Does that equate to its weight upon receipt by them?
If less when you received it, UPS is screwed.
If same, seller is full of BS.

[SeeitBuyit]

Excellent point. I shipped a motorcycle once and the buyer said parts were missing. However it weighed less than when I shipped it so, the buyer was playing games. Good luck with your refund.

[helo008]

Originally Posted by 123Blueface

UPS scales are very accurate.
What was the weight of the package upon receipt by you?
Does that equate to its weight upon receipt by them?
If less when you received it, UPS is screwed.
If same, seller is full of BS.

Hey Blue,

Did some measurements (package has been kept as is once I discovered the missing watch complete with bubble wrap) and the package weighs ~2.13lbs without the watch. UPS recorded weight was 2.00lbs. The package should be lighter than, not above the recorded weight if the watch was taken out right...?

[123Blueface]

Originally Posted by helo008

Hey Blue,

Did some measurements (package has been kept as is once I discovered the missing watch complete with bubble wrap) and the package weighs ~2.13lbs without the watch. UPS recorded weight was 2.00lbs. The package should be lighter than, not above the recorded weight if the watch was taken out right...?

Sounds like the watch was never in the box based on that.

[037]

Originally Posted by 123Blueface

Sounds like the watch was never in the box based on that.

To me it sounds like the UPS Store entered a value of 2 lbs. Whether it was on purpose or a mistake is unknown. Whether or not the watch was inside before shipping is unknown. What the scale actually said is unknown. The only fact known from the above is that the value was entered as 2 lbs.

[Dishpro01]

123Blueface has a good point here. If possible take everything included in the shipment down to the UPS Store and weigh it. If you don't have everything find out what it should have weighed with the watch included. That may tell you if the watch was actually shipped.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

[CorradoBrit]

Originally Posted by helo008

Hey Blue,

Did some measurements (package has been kept as is once I discovered the missing watch complete with bubble wrap) and the package weighs ~2.13lbs without the watch. UPS recorded weight was 2.00lbs. The package should be lighter than, not above the recorded weight if the watch was taken out right...?

So much for accurate measurements. Highly unlikely the box was weighed on a digital scale and read 2.00lbs. Was label preprinted or issued when package dropped off at the UPS Store?

[helo008]

Originally Posted by dmash

As you pointed out, who’s telling the truth? That’s silly to make your first claim that the seller should immediately refund a potential scammer so willingly. Especially when the seller has been a member here for 8 years. This entire situation looks very fishy to me, especially when paired with the fact that the seller was willing to drive and meet the seller only 90 mins away, yet buyer refuses that and wanted shipment?

Hey dmash,

Totally understand where you're coming from, but I'm hoping that you can see things a little from my perspective. My car has been in the shop from Monday morning to EOD Friday for a bumper re-spray and front end damage repair, which meant I didn't have access to a vehicle all week. When Will says that we could have met 1.5hrs away, that's 1.5hrs drive for each of us since we live 3 hours away from each other--but I had no access to a car. Given that he was willing to ship it fully insured, I felt that was the best way to go since it would even be overnighted.

With the amount of watches that are sold on TRF, I thought this was a safe way to go. Never expected my first transaction to go so wrong. Hope this helps you understand my perspective a bit more and why I made the decision for shipping as I did.

[037]

The UPS Store employee could have entered a lower weight than what the scale read. Comparing weights doesn't prove anything for the seller or buyer in terms of what was or wasn't shipped.

Assuming anything else unfortunately is just an assumption.

[dmash]

Originally Posted by helo008

Hey dmash,

Totally understand where you're coming from, but I'm hoping that you can see things a little from my perspective. My car has been in the shop from Monday morning to EOD Friday for a bumper re-spray and front end damage repair, which meant I didn't have access to a vehicle all week. When Will says that we could have met 1.5hrs away, that's 1.5hrs drive for each of us since we live 3 hours away from each other--but I had no access to a car. Given that he was willing to ship it fully insured, I felt that was the best way to go since it would even be overnighted.

With the amount of watches that are sold on TRF, I thought this was a safe way to go. Never expected my first transaction to go so wrong. Hope this helps you understand my perspective a bit more and why I made the decision for shipping as I did.

Look man, you very may well be a victim of postal theft. It does happen. As I reiterated multiple times, and will again, I'm not accusing you of anything. It all just seems a bit odd, especially with my experience in situations such as this. This is the only thing I ever said, was that in my opinion, it *seems* like it could be potential fraud. I don't appreciate people like Abdullah completely misconstruing my words and accusing me of saying something else, even claming bogus stuff such as I'm 'slandering' you. Pretty childish IMO, and he still has yet to clarify his mistake, despite obviously not understanding the meaning of such a claim.


Did you meet with a lawyer as you stated? This is the only obvious objection I had to your actions. I think it's a bit silly. Who would you go after in court? Against the seller, but then state UPS lost the package? That doesn't work.Go against UPS? Why would you do that prior to them reaching a decision, where they might willingly pay you out anyways? That's my entire point pertaining to my opinion on that subject, is I don't understand what you're trying to accomplish with that action. Let UPS finish their case, if the refund isn't granted, then perhaps a suit against UPS is a proper action. It all seems premature at this point in time.

[dmash]

Originally Posted by 037

The UPS Store employee could have entered a lower weight than what the scale read. Comparing weights doesn't prove anything for the seller or buyer in terms of what was or wasn't shipped.

Assuming anything else unfortunately is just an assumption.

Seller claimed on page 2 that they put it on the scale and it came in at 1lb15.5oz. I've shipped at UPS store before and they will round it up to nearest whole oz, so the 2lb weight makes sense.

[123Blueface]

Originally Posted by 037

The UPS Store employee could have entered a lower weight than what the scale read. Comparing weights doesn't prove anything for the seller or buyer in terms of what was or wasn't shipped.

Assuming anything else unfortunately is just an assumption.

But assuming it was UPS is not an assumption?

The OP’s weight is off by 2 ounces. That can be attributed to the scale used.
To me, looks like weight accepted for shipment is th very same as weight received.

[helo008]

Originally Posted by dmash

Look man, you very may well be a victim of postal theft. It does happen. As I reiterated multiple times, and will again, I'm not accusing you of anything. It all just seems a bit odd, especially with my experience in situations such as this.


Did you meet with a lawyer as you stated? This is the only obvious objection I had to your actions. I think it's a bit silly. Who would you go after in court? Against the seller, but then state UPS lost the package? There's no case....Go against UPS? Why would you do that prior to them reaching a decision, where they might willingly pay you out anyways? That's my entire point pertaining to my opinion on that subject, is I don't understand what you're trying to accomplish with that action.

Sounds good, I understand and I'm not taking any offense--you're of course entitled to your opinion. All I can do is state the facts as I know them, and if there's anything you would like from me that could help you form a better opinion of the kind of person I am please feel free to reach out anytime. From my side of the transaction right now though, I've paid a pretty substantial amount for a watch that I never received, so I have to say the least I feel is pretty cheated, although by whom it isn't clear.

I haven't had a chance to meet with my lawyer as it is still 8am here in CA, but like I said, this is a pretty substantial amount of money and I believe I'm in my rights to request a refund if I didn't receive the item I purchased. I just want to make sure that I'm protected and if it means spending some money on legal services to at least ensure I'm taking the best steps to recover the money, I'm okay with that.

[123Blueface]

Originally Posted by dmash

Seller claimed on page 2 that they put it on the scale and it came in at 1lb15.5oz. I've shipped at UPS store before and they will round it up to nearest whole oz, so the 2lb weight makes sense.

Correct. Sure seems to indicate watch not in the box.

[juniorlawrence]

Originally Posted by helo008

Hey all,

First timer on the forum here looking for some help and advice.

I recently purchased a Rolex GMT II from another TRF member on the classifieds section, and it was shipped overnight to me via UPS.

However, upon receiving the package this morning, I opened it up to find everything but the watch and "pillow" it comes on--the box, warranty card, booklets, extra link, and even a handwritten note from the seller thanking me for the transaction were all there. The white box in particular was a little dirtier than in the photos from the original listing, looks like someone's dirty handprints were on it. In other words, I opened the package to find an empty Rolex box.

The seller and I have since discussed the matter and he was as shocked as I was. We have filed police reports on both ends (we live in cities a few hours away from each other) and he is currently filing a claim with UPS. Luckily, the package was insured to the full value, but I'm worried the process will be messy given the package arrived but the watch was not inside.

My question is, what can I do at this point to recover my losses? Currently, I'm out the value of the watch (it was paid for via direct wire so the funds are with the seller), and while police reports were filed I'm skeptical the watch itself will be found.

Does anyone have advice for this situation or any experience with issues like this? Any help would really be appreciated. Thank you all in advance.

This is the Sellers Issue/Problem not the buyers. As the Buyer I would demand my money back or another watch immediately. Otherwise take action....immediately.

[dmash]

Originally Posted by helo008

Sounds good, I understand. From my side of the transaction right now though, I've paid a pretty substantial amount for a watch that I never received, so I have to say the least I feel is pretty cheated, although by whom it isn't clear.

I haven't had a chance to meet with my lawyer as it is still 8am here in CA, but like I said, this is a pretty substantial amount of money and I believe I'm in my rights to request a refund if I didn't receive the item I purchased. I just want to make sure that I'm protected and if it means spending some money on legal services to at least ensure I'm taking the best steps to recover the money, I'm okay with that.

10000% you are entitled to either a watch or your money back. All I'm questioning you on, is from a law perspective, how will you go about getting said 'refund'? You do understand, this is the exact equivalent as me jumping on Craigslist, finding a nice iPhone X, sending the money via wire, and then trying to sue the guy saying he sent me an empty box. Courts usually won't even touch internet transactions, exactly for the reasons I've already set forth. It's impossible to prove who the responsibility lays with.

If you attempted to sue the seller, he would not only have the defense of saying ANY UPS worker might of stolen the package.....he also has the people who work at your APT complex in the mix of it all. I'm just trying to paint a picture for you of how this is going to be practically impossible to prove and your best bet is to be patient, at least until the UPS claim is concluded. The seller is probably pretty stressed about this as is, the idea of a lawsuit helps nothing.

[dmash]

Originally Posted by juniorlawrence

This is the Sellers Issue/Problem not the buyers. As the Buyer I would demand my money back or the another watch immediately. Otherwise take action....immediately.

These are the statements I don't get. Flip the script, you sell me a watch for $10k, I get the package and claim it's empty, but you know in your head 100% that you sent me the watch. You're telling me, you would just *immediately* refund me $10k out of pocket, that's that, perhaps I'm lying but who cares, and you'll figure it out on your end?


Right. A lot of you seem to be suggesting the seller do things, that you know good and well you wouldn't replicate yourself in the same situation.

[037]

Originally Posted by 123Blueface

But assuming it was UPS is not an assumption?

The OP’s weight is off by 2 ounces. That can be attributed to the scale used.
To me, looks like weight accepted for shipment is th very same as weight received.

lol. I didn't say that UPS did anything wrong. I said what could have happened, not what did happen. That's a plausible speculation, not an assumption.

Comparing weights is futile without knowing when each scale was last calibrated and knowing exactly how it was weighed and entered into the system at the UPS Store counter. We can't know how accurate it was originally weighed or entered. That's my point.

This makes me curious what a GMT II inside the original box weighs by itself. That's another unknown.

[123Blueface]

Originally Posted by 037

lol. I didn't say that UPS did anything wrong. I said what could have happened, not what did happen. That's a plausible speculation, not an assumption.

Comparing weights is futile without knowing when each scale was last calibrated and knowing exactly how it was weighed and entered into the system at the UPS Store counter. We can't know how accurate it was originally weighed or entered. That's my point.

This makes me curious what a GMT II inside the original box weighs by itself. That's another unknown.

In this case, there is a negligible 2 ounce difference from seller’s comment on weight and OP’s that can certainly be attributed to calibration.
OP’s is two ounces more.
Where is the weight to account for the watch? Looks like wasn’t in there.

[dmash]

Originally Posted by 123Blueface

In this case, there is a negligible 2 ounce difference from seller’s comment on weight and OP’s that can certainly be attributed to calibration.
OP’s is two ounces more.
Where is the weight to account for the watch? Looks like wasn’t in there.

you're assuming the OP is telling the truth about his added weight measurement


See why this is not feasible to pursue in court?

[wesdaniel]

In reading comments from both the seller and the buyer, it seems that they're both being reasonable and that there's good faith efforts here to be honest and do the right thing.

In the end, one of them might be scamming the other, but, it really doesn't look that way.

But, it does look to me like there's a bunch of kids standing around the two of them in the playground chanting, "fight, fight, fight!" in order turn what seems to be two reasonable people doing the right thing into two people at odds with each other.

I wish the two of them luck and hope that, whatever the right thing is happens.