RE: Dishwasher safe debate.....

[ninetres]

Had a VERY intersting discussion reguarding our "dishwasher safe debate" from the other thread with our Rolex watch tech and master jeweler who is brilliant and knows physics quite well. Even if you guys were kidding about actually running your watch in the dishwasher, it spurred quite the intersting discussion.

Cliff notes: DO NOT put your rolex in the dishwasher.

1. Dish washing machine soap is actually quite caustic and is designed to penetrate nooks and crannys to clean and break down. NOT safe for gaskets.
2. The gaskets are a neoprene like material and not quite as chemically resistant as one may think.
3. The heat does cause the material to expand and contract.
4. Pressure ratings are for a CONSTANT BALANCED vaccumm, not a direct pressure at a specific spot. X psi of water pressure pointed directly at one small spot on the case back may cause a deviation of the gasket causing a leak.
5. There is a white plastic ring that is part of the system that seals the crystal. This part in particular is one that happens to deteriorate faster than most other parts in the watch. Combine this with caustic penetrating chemicals and high temperature variations and you have a good chance for a leak. Espically on an "aged" watch.



Obviously, each of these these bullet points have much more detail to them. It was interesting to me and thought you guys might care to share your opinions and comments.

Cheers,

Sean

[seantk]

Good to know. That is why I only use Cascade in the dishwasher....











for washing my dishes of course


Sean

[DSJ]

Hmmm, while I haven't done it, I think most were only using the rinse cycle, sans detergent.

I do think it's overkill, but occasionally workable after extreme filth build up?

However, Jocke's method is clearly superior:
http://www.watchwallpapers.com/beaterren.htm

[ninetres]

Originally Posted by DSJ

Hmmm, while I haven't done it, I think most were only using the rinse cycle, sans detergent.

I do think it's overkill, but occasionally workable after extreme filth build up?

See number 3, 4 and 5. While one might get away with it for a given amount of time, it only takes once for some water to slip by and create quite the expensive tab at a RSC.

[cody p]

dishwasher, yeah uh, dishes. seems like a sensible choice not to a put a wristwatch in it.

[rkboyer911]

Wish I had a "Beater" Rolex!! I had not seen that lil slide show done by Jocke...wow nice job!! I'm guessing that watch was worn while doing heavy mechanics work?? It looked like grease buildup LOL

[JJ Irani]

A DISHWASHER to clean a Rolex???

Has anyone here ever heard of good ole' soap, running water and a trusty old toothbrush?

Worked for me everytime......over 30 damn years!!

[forza1976]

Originally Posted by JJ Irani

A DISHWASHER to clean a Rolex???

Has anyone here ever heard of good ole' soap, running water and a trusty old toothbrush?

Worked for me everytime......over 30 damn years!!

Cheers to that, what are they rolling in mud??? :)

[GeoGio Greece]

Originally Posted by ninetres

Had a VERY intersting discussion reguarding our "dishwasher safe debate" from the other thread with our Rolex watch tech and master jeweler who is brilliant and knows physics quite well. Even if you guys were kidding about actually running your watch in the dishwasher, it spurred quite the intersting discussion.

Cliff notes: DO NOT put your rolex in the dishwasher.

1. Dish washing machine soap is actually quite caustic and is designed to penetrate nooks and crannys to clean and break down. NOT safe for gaskets.
2. The gaskets are a neoprene like material and not quite as chemically resistant as one may think.
3. The heat does cause the material to expand and contract.
4. Pressure ratings are for a CONSTANT BALANCED vaccumm, not a direct pressure at a specific spot. X psi of water pressure pointed directly at one small spot on the case back may cause a deviation of the gasket causing a leak.
5. There is a white plastic ring that is part of the system that seals the crystal. This part in particular is one that happens to deteriorate faster than most other parts in the watch. Combine this with caustic penetrating chemicals and high temperature variations and you have a good chance for a leak. Espically on an "aged" watch.



Obviously, each of these these bullet points have much more detail to them. It was interesting to me and thought you guys might care to share your opinions and comments.

Cheers,

Sean

Sean, he is quite right, but still our watches can take anything we can + a bit more.

So, if we can stand a dishwasher wash, they can also

I have boiled my watch ( a sub date back in 1971 ), freezed it, tortured it, and it is still running strong on the wrist of a friend of mine.

I had this Sub full of sea water for some time after a heavy knock under water, I had it rubbed with sea sand to take the shine off, and pretended that it had been to the extremes I was dreaming of.

Stupid behaviour of a 18 year old then. Now, my watches are my babies, and are sparkling and look brand new because I take GREAT care of them. I use them but care for them.

[spirotechnique]

unfortunatly nearly all of thoses statements are absolutly wrong

1. Dish washing machine soap is actually quite caustic and is designed to penetrate nooks and crannys to clean and break down. NOT safe for gaskets.

wrong gaskets of most watches including Rolex are made of Nitrile : Nitrile is very caustic resistant to most chemical products, commonly used in the industry to secure strong acids, I am using nitrile gloves when I manipulate fluoridric acid, and hopefully my gloves do not melt ... dish machine products could not arm in any way nitrile gaskets

2. The gaskets are a neoprene like material and not quite as chemically resistant as one may think.

again totally wrong Nitrile has nothing to do with neoprene : neoprene is a foam designed to thermally isolate, nitrile is extremly chemically restistant, not as good as Viton because it is not resistant to brake fluid, ketones, phosphate esters, but more resistant to acids

3. The heat does cause the material to expand and contract.

and SO ? temperature in a dish washer never exceed 80°C and a good mechanical watch can resist without any problem to such a heat !

4. Pressure ratings are for a CONSTANT BALANCED vaccumm, not a direct pressure at a specific spot. X psi of water pressure pointed directly at one small spot on the case back may cause a deviation of the gasket causing a leak.

wrong again ! dynamic pressure is the greatest myth among watch forums !
let us make a simple calculation :

Dymamic pressure is calculated with : P = ½ R V²

P= Pressure in Pa
R = weight of fluid in kg / m3
V = speed of fluid m/s

we can evaluate max speed of water in a dish washer to 2 meters per seconds calculation gives us : (I do take 1025 for water knowing it is added with powder giving a weight over 1kg/l)

0,5 x 1025 x 2 x 2 = 2050 Pa => 2050 Pa = 0,021 atm = the equivalent of pressure in ... 20 cms of water !!!

by the way pressure test is NOT done in vacuum : the diference between vacuum and air pressure is only 1 bar, a Submariner is qualified 30 bars the equivaent of 300 meters deep

5. There is a white plastic ring that is part of the system that seals the crystal. This part in particular is one that happens to deteriorate faster than most other parts in the watch. Combine this with caustic penetrating chemicals and high temperature variations and you have a good chance for a leak. Espically on an "aged" watch.

The plastic ring is made of delrin, a very stable a chemically inert plastic, resitant to temperature exeeding 150°C

Obviously, each of these these bullet points have much more detail to them. It was interesting to me and thought you guys might care to share your opinions and comments.

Thoses bullet points are not valid

[seedgun]

Now that, is a very impressive refutation ! I love it when science meets common notions.
A

[PalmSpringsCaVault]

what a bad way to find out your AD put on a aftermarket crystal and cheep gasket hahahahha

[ninetres]

Originally Posted by spirotechnique

unfortunatly nearly all of thoses statements are absolutly wrong

1. Dish washing machine soap is actually quite caustic and is designed to penetrate nooks and crannys to clean and break down. NOT safe for gaskets.

wrong gaskets of most watches including Rolex are made of Nitrile : Nitrile is very caustic resistant to most chemical products, commonly used in the industry to secure strong acids, I am using nitrile gloves when I manipulate fluoridric acid, and hopefully my gloves do not melt ... dish machine products could not arm in any way nitrile gaskets

2. The gaskets are a neoprene like material and not quite as chemically resistant as one may think.

again totally wrong Nitrile has nothing to do with neoprene : neoprene is a foam designed to thermally isolate, nitrile is extremly chemically restistant, not as good as Viton because it is not resistant to brake fluid, ketones, phosphate esters, but more resistant to acids

3. The heat does cause the material to expand and contract.

and SO ? temperature in a dish washer never exceed 80°C and a good mechanical watch can resist without any problem to such a heat !

4. Pressure ratings are for a CONSTANT BALANCED vaccumm, not a direct pressure at a specific spot. X psi of water pressure pointed directly at one small spot on the case back may cause a deviation of the gasket causing a leak.

wrong again ! dynamic pressure is the greatest myth among watch forums !
let us make a simple calculation :

Dymamic pressure is calculated with : P = ½ R V²

P= Pressure in Pa
R = weight of fluid in kg / m3
V = speed of fluid m/s

we can evaluate max speed of water in a dish washer to 2 meters per seconds calculation gives us : (I do take 1025 for water knowing it is added with powder giving a weight over 1kg/l)

0,5 x 1025 x 2 x 2 = 2050 Pa => 2050 Pa = 0,021 atm = the equivalent of pressure in ... 20 cms of water !!!

by the way pressure test is NOT done in vacuum : the diference between vacuum and air pressure is only 1 bar, a Submariner is qualified 30 bars the equivaent of 300 meters deep

5. There is a white plastic ring that is part of the system that seals the crystal. This part in particular is one that happens to deteriorate faster than most other parts in the watch. Combine this with caustic penetrating chemicals and high temperature variations and you have a good chance for a leak. Espically on an "aged" watch.

The plastic ring is made of delrin, a very stable a chemically inert plastic, resitant to temperature exeeding 150°C

Obviously, each of these these bullet points have much more detail to them. It was interesting to me and thought you guys might care to share your opinions and comments.

Thoses bullet points are not valid

If a gasket contracts, how exatly do you view that as good? And the material might be resistant to chemicals, but given the fact that it is STILL heat sensitive and will "soften" to some extent at high temp, when you add pressureized liquid that is designed to GO AROUND any material.....you can have issues.

You can detail every aspect of the white ring that you want, but the REAL LIFE FACT is that they are one of the most common and fastest deteriorating gaskets on the watch. A VAST majority of the watches we service happen to have said ring in poor condition. If the ring is not in proper sealing condition, a high pressure blast of water probably isn't the best thing for them (in addition to the FACT that the dish soap is designed to penetrate).

And as far as pressure is concerned, you either missed my point, or have your math wrong. Here is a real life pressure test. Head to the nearest beach (or childrens play area with sand). Punch the sand with a fist. Now repeat with equal force but stick out your index finger. Which penetrated the sand further? Take that example to a watch gasket? Apply a "constant" pressure equally distributed across the entire circle. Then apply the same pressue at one given point on the gasket. Obviously (no need for endless equasions), the gasket will deform more if pressed on at one spot.

Also, watches are pressure tested using a vaccumm. It provides several factors pressure does not:
1. Air bubbles coming out of a watch are easier to see than water entering a solid case.
2. In theory, vaccum would attempt to "open" the watch more than pressure which would in essence help press it tighter together. So if it can withstand X amount of vaccumm, it can surely withstand X amount of pressure.
3. Air leaving a case being tested does not require the movement to be taken out and thouroughly dried.


I appreciate your input and am not saying what I write is Gospel, well most of it anyway :P Some of what I write is DIRECTLY from the findings of a factory trained/certified Rolex watchmaker. So while your input is very scientific and helpful, it is interesting how you chose your wording to be so direct and factual.

[jm433]

Why would anybody put a Rolex in the dishwasher in the first place? Crazy. A quick rinse will do.

[Armand]

Originally Posted by ninetres

1. Air bubbles coming out of a watch are easier to see than water entering a solid case.

Yes. That is simply the truth.


2. In theory, vaccum would attempt to "open" the watch more than pressure which would in essence help press it tighter together. So if it can withstand X amount of vaccumm, it can surely withstand X amount of pressure.

No. There must be a reason, why the Sub´s case back is so much thicker than, say, a GMT´s or DJ´s!?!?
.

INSIDE Vacuum is another thing than outside vacuum!

But I have to confess that applying outside vacuum will test the SEALS more than anything else.

Hermann

[ninetres]

Originally Posted by spirotechnique

unfortunatly nearly all of thoses statements are absolutly wrong


Thoses bullet points are not valid

I was just discussing your responce with my co-workers and they had more to offer.

1. The gaskets are a form of plastic which, like any plastic, is constantly plasticising (sp?). So over time, its properties DO change.

2. The watchmaker also commented more on heat reguarding the lubricants. While I'm sure they have an outstanding heat rating on paper, he found that a majority of the watches coming in also have most of the oil dried up. He says no matter how resistant it is to heat on paper, when a watch is paced on the dashboard of a vehicle in heat 100f* plus, the oils simply break down and boil away.

[Andad]

Originally Posted by ninetres

Had a VERY intersting discussion reguarding our "dishwasher safe debate" from the other thread with our Rolex watch tech and master jeweler who is brilliant and knows physics quite well. Even if you guys were kidding about actually running your watch in the dishwasher, it spurred quite the intersting discussion.

Cliff notes: DO NOT put your rolex in the dishwasher.

1. Dish washing machine soap is actually quite caustic and is designed to penetrate nooks and crannys to clean and break down. NOT safe for gaskets.
2. The gaskets are a neoprene like material and not quite as chemically resistant as one may think.
3. The heat does cause the material to expand and contract.
4. Pressure ratings are for a CONSTANT BALANCED vaccumm, not a direct pressure at a specific spot. X psi of water pressure pointed directly at one small spot on the case back may cause a deviation of the gasket causing a leak.
5. There is a white plastic ring that is part of the system that seals the crystal. This part in particular is one that happens to deteriorate faster than most other parts in the watch. Combine this with caustic penetrating chemicals and high temperature variations and you have a good chance for a leak. Espically on an "aged" watch.



Obviously, each of these these bullet points have much more detail to them. It was interesting to me and thought you guys might care to share your opinions and comments.

Cheers,

Sean

Hi Sean,

I agree with most of your points but IMO Rolex would not use neoprene for the gaskets and the water pressure in a dishwasher would not cause any distortion of the case back.

The point made regarding the caustic nature of some dishwashing powders is probably the most valid.

[Tools]

A dishwasher is not a high pressure vessel......I would venture that no dishwasher can generate enough water pressure to "force" water into any watch of moderate water resistance.... nor do they achieve high temperatures, particularly not enough to expand or contract modern metals to any significant degree.... probably no more so than a good hot-tub..

While I admire watchmakers greatly, I would not go to one to discuss the plasticity of metals or gasket materials, point source pressure, dish soap chemistry, vacuum dynamics, hydraulic theory, or any other engineering or scientific principle..

[spirotechnique]

I might first perhaps say that I am an engineer working in geophysics, and dealing constantly with very high pressure, different metals, gaskets, and calculation around hermeticity : this is my job and this is also why I appreciate tech around watches

If a gasket contracts, how exatly do you view that as good? And the material might be resistant to chemicals, but given the fact that it is STILL heat sensitive and will "soften" to some extent at high temp, when you add pressureized liquid that is designed to GO AROUND any material.....you can have issues.

in a dish washer the max temperature will never soften nitrile to the point there is a risk for the hermeticity of the watch . period
of course if you extend this temperature there will be a problem but this is not the topic

You can detail every aspect of the white ring that you want, but the REAL LIFE FACT is that they are one of the most common and fastest deteriorating gaskets on the watch.

I just say you are wrong , have you any LIFE FACT (no need to yell) to prove the contrary ? in vintage watches they where using ratural rubber and the main failure was done by aging of the material, in modern watches nitrile solve the problem of aging and the temperature will not affect thoses : working temperature of nitrile is -40 C to +135 C

A VAST majority of the watches we service happen to have said ring in poor condition. If the ring is not in proper sealing condition, a high pressure blast of water probably isn't the best thing for them (in addition to the FACT that the dish soap is designed to penetrate).

have you any figures to give us or is it a personnal statement ? do you speak of vintage watches with natural rubber seals or modern watches with nitrile ? , most failures I have seen concerning o-rings is improper installation, including in watches

And as far as pressure is concerned, you either missed my point, or have your math wrong. Here is a real life pressure test. Head to the nearest beach (or childrens play area with sand). Punch the sand with a fist. Now repeat with equal force but stick out your index finger. Which penetrated the sand further? Take that example to a watch gasket? Apply a "constant" pressure equally distributed across the entire circle. Then apply the same pressue at one given point on the gasket. Obviously (no need for endless equasions), the gasket will deform more if pressed on at one spot.

the modulus of elasticity of the 904L is comparable with sand ??? I am afraid you missd my point ! the pressure even applied on ONE single point into a dish watsher is simply negligeable

Also, watches are pressure tested using a vaccumm. It provides several factors pressure does not:

no wrong ! vaccum is only the FIRST test acheived, then the watch is pressurised to the real service pressure ! vaccum test only test the watch at 1 bar : the difference of pressure between vaccum (0 bar) and athmospheric pressure (1 bar)

1. Air bubbles coming out of a watch are easier to see than water entering a solid case.

the bubble test is not done by vacuum , review the user manual of bubble testers

2. In theory, vaccum would attempt to "open" the watch more than pressure which would in essence help press it tighter together. So if it can withstand X amount of vaccumm, it can surely withstand X amount of pressure.

absolutly NOT : it is a totally different problem

Some of what I write is DIRECTLY from the findings of a factory trained/certified Rolex watchmaker.

and so? he is wrong we are dealing here with physics and pressure this is MY business, he might be by far better in watchmaking ... but not in hermeticity

[spirotechnique]

Originally Posted by Tools

A dishwasher is not a high pressure vessel......I would venture that no dishwasher can generate enough water pressure to "force" water into any watch of moderate water resistance.... nor do they achieve high temperatures, particularly not enough to expand or contract modern metals to any significant degree.... probably no more so than a good hot-tub..

While I admire watchmakers greatly, I would not go to one to discuss the plasticity of metals or gasket materials, point source pressure, dish soap chemistry, vacuum dynamics, hydraulic theory, or any other engineering or scientific principle..

Thank you

[Andad]

Originally Posted by Armand

INSIDE Vacuum is another thing than outside vacuum!

But I have to confess that applying outside vacuum will test the SEALS more than anything else.

Hermann

I'm with spirotechnique on this one.

IMO

A sealing system that is designed to withstand high pressure can not be meaningfully tested by applying a vacuum. A vacuum will not test a system that requires pressure resistance. The 'A vacuum test is a first line of testing' statement is unacceptable to me.
The efficiency of a 'pressure' seal often relies on the pressure being applied to improve the sealing mechanism.

The bubble test requires a pressure to be applied to the watch case while it is suspended above a solution. The case is then submerged in the solution at the test pressure and only then is the pressure slowly released. Any air that entered the watch case via faulty seals under the test pressure will then be released as bubbles. I can't see where any vacuum is used. It is also interesting to note that I have never seen a pressure test machine capable of more than 30 metres test depth. I am sure that Rolex has one.
The vacuum test is checked under a glass dome with a micrometer deflection dial on the crystal face . This test can be done by your local watchmaker. I hope he is not relying on a vacuum of one atmosphere to prove a test pressure of 30 Bar, 120 Bar, 390 Bar?
I would like someone to give me a conversion chart of vacuum = Bar.

As part of my work I install chemical dosing pumps for acids and hydroxides. The viton 'o' rings we use are excellent and I have never had one fail. Other 'o' ring materials are available for specific applications.

All things aside I would forget a dishwasher as a means of cleaning a watch but hey, what do I know? That would be the acid test but not worth the risk IMO when you can use baby shampoo and a soft brush.

[Brunotheboxer]

Why not take it to the next level and just throw the Rolex into the cloths washing machine next time you do a load?

[B Square]

Originally Posted by Brunotheboxer

Why not take it to the next level and just throw the Rolex into the cloths washing machine next time you do a load?

I did that with my Blackberry and it's still going strong a year later I'm sure our Rolex's would pass the Maytag test

[sheldonsmith]

Just for a visual, this has been done....

I have more images posted at http://www.minus4plus6.com/photos/photo34.htm about half-way down...

-Sheldon

[davidm]

I appreciate your concern, ninetres. But no modern watch manufacture uses natural rubber or plastic for sealing purposes. As Spiro noted, Viton fluoroelastomers, or Buna N is used. These are modern synthetic materials that are more than up to the job of sealing a watch. By the way, we use these materials in Waterous fire pumps, and are tested, with salt water, at over 1000 PSI. The seals that are made out of this material live in a very harsh and corrosive world, and they hold up well, and last for years.....David

[JJ Irani]

Originally Posted by jm433

Why would anybody put a Rolex in the dishwasher in the first place? Crazy. A quick rinse will do.

EXACTLY!! Why the hell are we even reading this thread?

[Howie]

Next up... are Rolex's safe in the washer / dryer?

[ninetres]

I like the debate. I never said the gaskets are rubber, neoprene, or plain plastic. The "synthetic" white ring (that is a form of platic lol) that seals the crystal breaks down quite frequently.

Everyone in this thread is arguing like water never finds its way into a Rolex case. Though rare, it does happen from time to time and chances are it is in an environment FAR (caps for emphasis not yelling) more forgiving that your dishwasher.

I do realize I (and my watchmaker) am way out gunned on physics. Several of you seem to be very educated on this subject. But the fact is he has everyone out gunned in this thread reguarding real world findings in watch servicing. He is a second generation watch maker and has been Rolex certified for over 15 years, servicing thousands of watches. He has seen Rolex parts evolve to where they are today and is very qualified to attest to thier properties.

I realize a semi-hot, semi-pressurized stream will not penetrate a solid block of 904l in a testing lab. I'm just saying there is a chance that it may find its way into the watch through the seals.

It seems most in this thread trust physics theory and disreguard actual watch findings. I rest my case and thank everyone in this thread for providing more work for the watchmakers of this world.

[Armand]

Originally Posted by directioneng

The viton 'o' rings we use are excellent and I have never had one fail. Other 'o' ring materials are available for specific applications.

I don´t like Vion or Teflon seals.

They are nearly immune, chemically, but they are not "springy".

They "creep".

Once compressed ( e.g. by temperature changes of the surrounding material ) they get compressed and they won´t "swell" back and seal properly at other conditions.

IIRC there are solutions to this: a "springy" center with Teflon/Calrez/Delrin/ "you-name-i-Teflon-containing" coating.

Rolex aside, I am sure they know what to use, for my applications I prefer EPDM.

( yes, I know, will not be usable for anything with more than 15% "oily" content )

Still great for "polarized" liquid problems.

Hermann

[Andad]

My personal favourites are Harp.