2002 Bluesy No Holes Flat 4

[Icantaffordrolex]

Can anyone share any insight into the Y-serial 16613 two-tone bluesy with the flat 4 bezel and no holes case? I see a lot of flat 4 kermits on chrono and ebay, but no ‘flat 4 no holes’ bluesy. 2002 was the first year of the ‘no holes’ case and the only year that still had the flat 4 bezel. Haven’t seen any posts or videos talk about this. Should they be worth double the price of a normal bluesy, similar to how the flat 4 kermit is trading for double over a normal kermit?

[padi56]

Originally Posted by Icantaffordrolex

Can anyone share any insight into the Y-serial 16613 two-tone bluesy with the flat 4 bezel and no holes case? I see a lot of flat 4 kermits on chrono and ebay, but no ‘flat 4 no holes’ bluesy. 2002 was the first year of the ‘no holes’ case and the only year that still had the flat 4 bezel. Haven’t seen any posts or videos talk about this. Should they be worth double the price of a normal bluesy, similar to how the flat 4 kermit is trading for double over a normal kermit?

All Rolex subs and SD models in this time frame had the so called flat four font and its been used a few time over the past 50 odd years. The flat four font no big deal except on the early 16610LV where the hype has made the flat four font on this model to now bring crazy money for those willing to pay.

[Icantaffordrolex]

Originally Posted by padi56

All Rolex subs and SD models in this time frame had the so called flat four font and its been used a few time over the past 50 odd years. The flat four font no big deal except on the early 16610LV where the hype has made the flat four font on this model to now bring crazy money for those willing to pay.

For sure. Just trying to show some love to the flat 4 bluesy too, esp with the no holes case. Y-serials seem be to the most rare and coveted like with flat 4 kermits. Cheers buddy

[thesharkfactor]

Originally Posted by Icantaffordrolex

Y-serials seem be to the most rare and coveted like with flat 4 kermits. Cheers buddy

Never heard this before buddy, I’ve been following Subs closely since that watch was new.
Flat 4 means nothing and is worth no more or less than a normal 4 on anything but an LV.
I recently had a 2002 16613 with a flat 4 and a Swiss only dial, but it made zero difference when I sold it.. unless I missed something.

[Icantaffordrolex]

Originally Posted by thesharkfactor

Never heard this before buddy, I’ve been following Subs closely since that watch was new.
Flat 4 means nothing and is worth no more or less than a normal 4 on anything but an LV.
I recently had a 2002 16613 with a flat 4 and a Swiss only dial, but it made zero difference when I sold it.. unless I missed something.

I thought that collectors sought the first and last production years, as well as transitional pieces. For example, Swiss Onlys and the 116600 last of the 40mm SD.

The late Y serial bluesy was the first year of the no-holes case, which currently brings a $2-3k premium over the holes case on chrono24 and ebay. Add in the flat 4, and BOOM! I can’t find a single listing for this Y-serial with an original dial. Also, if you caught the last Grand Caliber Youtube episode this week, there’s a buyer who’s scooping up 10 pre-ceramic two tones in one deal.

Shame you sold your Swiss Only 16613. Was it a black dial with the holes case? Because they’re listing for $11k. Blue dials with the holes case are at $12k. Blue no-holes are at $13k. Blue Y-serials with the flat 4 and original dial should be going for $14-15k, if one pops up. All these listing prices are for pieces with box and papers.

Weird that your Swiss Only was from 2002 because I’ve always heard that Swiss Onlys were only produced in 1998 (U), 1999 (A), and 2000 (P). There are also a lot of Swiss Onlys out there with the service replacement dial indicated by the short minute markers next to SWISS MADE, as opposed to the tall minute markers on an original dial. Maybe you did yourself a favor by selling it. I just sold my Swiss Only 14060 as well. Bye bye holes case

[77T]

One thing to remember about getting too fine in the model vagaries is this: bezel inserts from the 5 digit era can be swapped in a few minutes to produce the result one wanted.

So the flat 4 might be seen in anachronistic settings.


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[brandrea]

It begs the question why the flat 4 insert was so coveted on the LV and not the LB

[mailman]

Originally Posted by brandrea

It begs the question why the flat 4 insert was so coveted on the LV and not the LB

Maybe because there was a shorter run. The LV was introduced late in the Y serial run. Plus the LV is a special watch compared to the LB.

[brandrea]

Originally Posted by mailman

Maybe because there was a shorter run. The LV was introduced late in the Y serial run. Plus the LV is a special watch compared to the LB.

I really didn’t follow them back in the day. I probably wouldn’t have noticed the font then

[padi56]

Originally Posted by brandrea

It begs the question why the flat 4 insert was so coveted on the LV and not the LB

Hype followed by more hype some say the flat four font 16610LV is the only true anniversary one, but truth be told they were all anniversary subs. Even my working tool SD had a flat four font as did all subs and SD did in the same time frame.

[brandrea]

Originally Posted by padi56

Hype followed by more hype some say the flat four font 16610LV is the only true anniversary one, but truth be told they were all anniversary subs. Even my working tool SD had a flat four font as did all subs and SD did in the same time frame.

Thank you Peter, I always thought the flat 4 was specific to the LV.

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[thesharkfactor]

The one I was talking about, I let go this earlier this year..

[Bladeshot]

This is a 1985-1986 16803. Typical.



Just another WIS who loves to trade.
IG @bladeandwatch1

[TopDog2315]

IMO Swiss only dials will fetch a premium in the future, it’s a transitional model that was produced for a little more than a year.

It’s the only real collectable 16610 that remained true to it’s roots before it became more of a fashion statement.

The Flat 4 on the bezel is also something to consider when you look for a full original set in order to make sure your Sub is all period correct for collecting purposes.

Here’s my 16610 Swiss only dial from 1999.

Timepiece is in incredible unpolished condition : )




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[TopDog2315]

To answer your question OP.

IMO

I don’t believe there should be a premium for the bluesy if it had the Flat 4 on the bezel for that specific model.

The anniversary Sub LV commends a premium for the Flat 4 on the bezel because some Rolex purist/collectors believed (still believe) that it’s the true anniversary model. Perhaps I find myself in that category ; )

Cheers


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[Icantaffordrolex]

Originally Posted by thesharkfactor

The one I was talking about, I let go this earlier this year..

Gorgeous black dial two-tone, not a scratch on those PCLs!
Swiss Only dial (original, not a service replacement) - Yes
Flat 4 - Yes
Luminova on bezel pip, indices, and hands - Yes
SELs - Yes
No Holes Case - Hmm, on a Swiss Only? No Holes cases started in 2002/2003, but Swiss only dials were made only up to 2000 (P). Maybe Rolex had some spare Swiss Only dials in their parts bin and used them up in 2001/2002?

Good luck to whoever you sold that to to figure it out :)

[Icantaffordrolex]

Originally Posted by Bladeshot

This is a 1985-1986 16803. Typical.



Just another WIS who loves to trade.
IG @bladeandwatch1

What a gem! Tiffany stamped two tone Sub

[padi56]

Originally Posted by TopDog2315

IMO Swiss only dials will fetch a premium in the future, it’s a transitional model that was produced for a little more than a year.

It’s the only real collectable 16610 that remained true to it’s roots before it became more of a fashion statement.

The Flat 4 on the bezel is also something to consider when you look for a full original set in order to make sure your Sub is all period correct for collecting purposes.

Here’s my 16610 Swiss only dial from 1999.

Timepiece is in incredible unpolished condition


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Nice watch but IMHO very doubtful that Swiss only dials will fetch a premium although in production for a few years many many thousands around.

[Icantaffordrolex]

Originally Posted by 77T

One thing to remember about getting too fine in the model vagaries is this: bezel inserts from the 5 digit era can be swapped in a few minutes to produce the result one wanted.

So the flat 4 might be seen in anachronistic settings.


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True, but the blue/gold insert with a flat 4 AND luminova pip are hard to find as well, in good condition. Plus, it should match up with the Y-serial on the case and papers, which really limits us to late 2002.

[Icantaffordrolex]

Originally Posted by TopDog2315

To answer your question OP.

IMO

I don’t believe there should be a premium for the bluesy if it had the Flat 4 on the bezel for that specific model.

The anniversary Sub LV commends a premium for the Flat 4 on the bezel because some Rolex purist/collectors believed (still believe) that it’s the true anniversary model. Perhaps I find myself in that category ; )

Cheers


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It’s not so much the flat 4, but the combo of also being the first production year of the no-holes case (2002 Y-serial) that’s interesting. Watchcharts and chrono24 should distinguish between holes and no-holes cases because they’re really two different prices.

Found two ebay listings for Y-serial no-holes flat 4 bluesys for $16,950 each. However, they’re missing papers. There was one with papers that calijewelersbh sold on eBay recently for $15k.

Cheers!

[padi56]

Originally Posted by Icantaffordrolex

It’s not so much the flat 4, but the combo of also being the first production year of the no-holes case (2002 Y-serial) that’s interesting. Watchcharts and chrono24 should distinguish between holes and no-holes cases because they’re really two different prices.

Found two ebay listings for Y-serial no-holes flat 4 bluesys for $16,950 each. However, they’re missing papers. There was one with papers that calijewelersbh sold on eBay recently for $15k.

Cheers!

Well in the real world sellers will hype these things as much as possible to extract as much cash from buyers willing to pay.

[TopDog2315]

Originally Posted by padi56

Nice watch but IMHO very doubtful that Swiss only dials will fetch a premium although in production for a few years many many thousands around.

Well Peter, I guess will have to wait and see.

You wouldn’t perhaps have a time machine handy?



Have a great day!

Cheers


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[Bladeshot]

Originally Posted by Icantaffordrolex

What a gem! Tiffany stamped two tone Sub

TYVM!


Just another WIS who loves to trade.
IG @bladeandwatch1