Are you ok with "Swiss made" watches having Chinese-made parts?

[BraveBold]

I will point out that if 39% of COST is from China, it would likely be majority “Chinese made” by any practical interpretation.

Because Chinese costs will be a small fraction of Swiss costs per unit of “item” produced… for example, from a labor perspective it might mean 100 hrs of Chinese labor to 5 hours (or less) Swiss.

That said, the proof is largely in the pudding… and for Rolex the bulk of costs are likely from things that (at least for what we’d value) could be done efficiently in Switzerland (machining / tooling)… and if those rules are “AND” then also the design is predominantly Swiss. Rolex quality still suggests it is truly Swiss made.

Other brands, well, there is probably more variability than many would like to admit. But from a marketing perspective it goes beyond the label, and supply chain control gets tricky and reproductions harder to discern… so my informed but imperfect guess is Rolex is maintaining far more than 60% of costs (and components as FINISHED goods, not raw) domestic.

Originally Posted by Cru Jones

Here is what qualifies a watch as being "Swiss made" according to the the Federation of the Swiss Watch Industry FH (https://www.fhs.swiss/eng/whoweare.html):

"Art. 1a Definition of the Swiss watch

A watch is to be regarded as a Swiss watch if:

a. its technical development has taken place in Switzerland;

1. in the case of exclusively mechanical watches, at least the mechanical
construction and prototyping of the watch as a whole,

2. in the case of watches that are not exclusively mechanical, at least the
mechanical construction and prototyping of the watch as a whole, together
with the conception of the printed circuit or circuits, the display and the
software;

a bis. its movement is Swiss;

b. its movement has been cased up in Switzerland;

c. final inspection by the manufacturer took place in Switzerland and

d. at least 60% of the manufacturing costs is generated in Switzerland"

(https://www.fhs.swiss/file/8/Guide_FH_v.5_en.pdf)

[brandrea]

Archers posts in that thread are worth a read (assuming everyone has gone through all 4 pages)

He’s a well known and respected Omega watchmaker.

[RolexBHR]

Originally Posted by omar-rye

It’s 4 pages long unfortunately. Are you able to pinpoint to where it was confirmed without a doubt that some Omega bracelets are made in Thailand

Can confirm that I ordered several deployants, bracelets and clasps and all said made in Thailand.

Thinking out loud I can only think of two scenarios here,

1. The bracelets, clasps, deployants and straps sold on new watches are made in Switzerland but replacements are from Thailand. Unlikely the case, doesn't make commercial sense.

or

2. Omega doesn't define the bracelet as part of the watch when they state "Every part of the watch is made in Switzerland". More likely the case and probably cleared it with their legal team to make such a statement without being in the wrong.

[Jay (Eire)]

The disconnect with reality which has been highlighted by several posts here is mind blowing to me.

A couple of thoughts :

1) The Rules : We all know the guidelines for branding “Swiss Made”, but please recognize that these guidelines were crafted in a specific way to allow for a global manufacturing chain. (Yes, they were established to also protect Swiss businesses, but to reiterate my main point here they were most definitely NOT drafted to handicap those same business in a competitive marketplace).

Absent definite statements from any brand to say otherwise (and I realize there will be some crafty wordsmiths employed by brands here) then my working assumption for quite some time now is that there are very few, maybe none, sub $10k watches without components made in China.

2) Production Capability: Does having a non Swiss based manufacturer supplying a part or parts for my watch really matter to me?

No, and that’s how I voted above.

Do people actually believe that a CNC machine in China or Thailand (and its operator) cannot produce the same parts to the same tolerances and QC and at a better price?

3) We are talking about mass produced product here. Mass produced, I feel like this needs to repeated.

As noted above “luxury is just a price” and especially so when talking about mass produced product.

Is it realistic to think a mass produced product is not seeking cost efficiencies that would lead it to suppliers in lower cost locations.

====

OP, great thread. And great discussions and posts by other members. I understand some folks may not have thought about this before and maybe the reality is jarring (or unexpected). Others acknowledge that this is just the way it works and are OK so long as QC and end product is what is expected. And some others probably avoid mass produced watches and instead look to watchmakers and brands where the probability of such outsourcing is very remote.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[enjoythemusic]

Maybe this is why truly independent Switzerland-based watchmakers, those who produce perhaps a few hundred a year at most, are in high demand? When we know a Swiss headquartered company mass produces, we'll call it 10,000+ timepieces a year, there's more of a reason to be a bit more mindful that it is the Company CEO / CFO / Marketing you may be 'trusting' moreso than an honorable watchmaker with perhaps a handful of Friends.

So like when buying used and 'trust the buyer', when buying 'Made In Switzerland' you're 'buying the Big Company'... and trust more in a watchmaker.

jmho

[the dark knight]

Originally Posted by RolexBHR

2. Omega doesn't define the bracelet as part of the watch when they state "Every part of the watch is made in Switzerland". More likely the case and probably cleared it with their legal team to make such a statement without being in the wrong.

Weird, I thought this was already pretty well settled? Mainly because I see few watches actually put "Swiss Made" on the bracelet itself. None of the recent Omegas I've owned have said that.

IIRC Tudor's bracelets used to say "Swiss Made" but no longer do so, so I assumed they also had moved production to another nation (prob in Asia).

Rolex's bracelets obviously all still say "Swiss Made".

And FWIW my Vacheron Overseas's bracelet is Made in France, but they put Swiss Made on the rubber and leather straps.

So I was already working under the assumption if the bracelet/strap doesn't specify a country of origin, it was probably made in China or another Asian nation.

[the dark knight]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

Maybe this is why truly independent Switzerland-based watchmakers, those who produce perhaps a few hundred a year at most, are in high demand? When we know a Swiss headquartered company mass produces, we'll call it 10,000+ timepieces a year, there's more of a reason to be a bit more mindful that it is the Company CEO / CFO / Marketing you may be 'trusting' moreso than an honorable watchmaker with perhaps a handful of Friends.

So like when buying used and 'trust the buyer', when buying 'Made In Switzerland' you're 'buying the Big Company'... and trust more in a watchmaker.

jmho

Isn't this why Moser stopped putting Swiss Made on their watches? Because it's lost all meaning?

[the dark knight]

Actually, I had recently ordered some Omega straps and saved some of the packaging so this thread inspired me to look through those again. I guess truly a global supply chain.

The deployant clasp indeed says Thailand.
The pin buckle says Italy.
The rubber strap says Switzerland.

So there you go.

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by the dark knight

Isn't this why Moser stopped putting Swiss Made on their watches? Because it's lost all meaning?

This is a good point, and yes i believe you are correct about H. Moser. To be fair, few companies can afford the machines / technology to create their own hairsprings, H. Moser can.

Anywho, let's ask AI....

H. Moser & Cie. chooses not to label their watches as "Swiss Made" because they believe the current regulations for the designation are too lenient, allowing brands to claim "Swiss Made" even when a significant portion of the watch is not actually manufactured in Switzerland; essentially protesting against the perception that the label guarantees a fully Swiss-made product when it often doesn't.


Key points about H. Moser's stance on "Swiss Made":

High standards:
H. Moser claims that their watches are almost entirely produced in Switzerland, exceeding the minimum requirements for the "Swiss Made" label.

Transparency:
By removing the label, they aim to be more transparent with consumers about the origin of their watches.

Criticism of the label:
They view the current "Swiss Made" criteria as misleading, allowing brands to outsource components while still claiming Swiss origin.

[adamegret]

Straps won’t count as being part of the watch and neither do bracelets, even though they’re expensive and/or integral to the whole look.

We won’t ever know what’s inside the watch itself, because who can tell where some CNC machined part of a movement came from unless you work for the company. And if the company can reduce their costs and pad their margins as much as possible under the rules of “Swiss made”, you can be sure they will. Why would any of them leave money on the table, even small independents?

[BNA/LION]

Nope!

[Cru Jones]

Originally Posted by Jay (Eire)

The disconnect with reality which has been highlighted by several posts here is mind blowing to me.

A couple of thoughts :

1) The Rules : We all know the guidelines for branding “Swiss Made”, but please recognize that these guidelines were crafted in a specific way to allow for a global manufacturing chain. (Yes, they were established to also protect Swiss businesses, but to reiterate my main point here they were most definitely NOT drafted to handicap those same business in a competitive marketplace).

Absent definite statements from any brand to say otherwise (and I realize there will be some crafty wordsmiths employed by brands here) then my working assumption for quite some time now is that there are very few, maybe none, sub $10k watches without components made in China.

2) Production Capability: Does having a non Swiss based manufacturer supplying a part or parts for my watch really matter to me?

No, and that’s how I voted above.

Do people actually believe that a CNC machine in China or Thailand (and its operator) cannot produce the same parts to the same tolerances and QC and at a better price?

3) We are talking about mass produced product here. Mass produced, I feel like this needs to repeated.

As noted above “luxury is just a price” and especially so when talking about mass produced product.

Is it realistic to think a mass produced product is not seeking cost efficiencies that would lead it to suppliers in lower cost locations.

====

OP, great thread. And great discussions and posts by other members. I understand some folks may not have thought about this before and maybe the reality is jarring (or unexpected). Others acknowledge that this is just the way it works and are OK so long as QC and end product is what is expected. And some others probably avoid mass produced watches and instead look to watchmakers and brands where the probability of such outsourcing is very remote.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Good points, all of them.

Personally, it’s the misleading “Swiss made” label that bothers me. Now that I better understand the issue, I have come to the conclusion that I will not spend money on a watch “assembled in Switzerland” instead of “made in Switzerland” if the watch “proudly” wears the federation label “Swiss made” while sourcing components like bracelets, clasps and/or cases from Asia.

Such a watch feels like a fake to me. I don’t care about Swiss “watch rules” or rational arguments like quality control and lower costs (which aren’t passed to the customer anyway, LOL).

Judging by the results of this thread’s poll, a significant number of other people interested in watches feel something similar. But with the “Swiss made” label, I wonder what the average uninformed watch buyer thinks, and what ADs tell those consumers who are looking for a fine “Swiss” timepiece…..

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by Cru Jones

But with the “Swiss made” label, I wonder what the average uninformed watch buyer thinks....

Great idea! It would be a good task for you to ask others who are shopping within a luxury mall and ask them. Get 2000 people to give you their thoughts and feelings, then compile the data accordingly and let us know here on TRF

[brandrea]

Originally Posted by Cru Jones

Good points, all of them.

Personally, it’s the misleading “Swiss made” label that bothers me. Now that I better understand the issue, I have come to the conclusion that I will not spend money on a watch “assembled in Switzerland” instead of “made in Switzerland” if the watch “proudly” wears the federation label “Swiss made” while sourcing components like bracelets, clasps and/or cases from Asia.

Such a watch feels like a fake to me. I don’t care about Swiss “watch rules” or rational arguments like quality control and lower costs (which aren’t passed to the customer anyway, LOL).

Judging by the results of this thread’s poll, a significant number of other people interested in watches feel something similar. But with the “Swiss made” label, I wonder what the average uninformed watch buyer thinks, and what ADs tell those consumers who are looking for a fine “Swiss” timepiece…..

Great now I’m depressed (again)

[joli160]

Never mind where it is made as long as the brand stands behind it.
A machine stamping out cases and gears will work equally good in any country.

[brandrea]

Maybe some owners of Omega watches (since they’ve been mentioned here) can post pictures of their watch clasps/ bracelet (underside) to show us what if any markings are shown.

My Rolex BLRO says “Swiss made” Geneva.

I will go to the bank later on and take a picture of my 321 clasp.

My only thought is that perhaps Omega factory bracelets and clasps are made in Switzerland and “replacements” are made offshore? I realize I’m grasping at straws here

[Duke Nukem]

This is why Rolex is superior because they've vertically integrated their entire production supply throughout Switzerland. Sure, some of the raw metals may come from outside the country, but the foundry, design, and assembly all take place in Switzerland.

Any of the other swiss watch brands that belong to a luxury conglomerate (Swatch, Richemont, LVMH, etc.) will have parts made elsewhere.

The Omega parts made in China/Thailand, etc. has been well known for a long time but there's still some deniers out there. I've ordered parts straight from the Omega boutique near me and they even acknowledged that parts are produced outside of Switzerland especially since the packaging states the country of production (China/Thailand). Omega abuses the "Swiss-Made" loopholes.

I won't buy another Omega for their awful QC at their service centers elsewhere around the globe but that's another story. When you have send a watch back five times that comes back worse each time, there's something wrong. The only qualified Omega service center is in Bienne.