Thoughts on Tudor Sub

[RSGMD]

Looking to purchase a Tudor Sub. Asking for thought on this one http://www.ebay.com/itm/70s-Tudor-Su...item2ebb601f57
Any thought on hans and date wheel.
Seller has sold high priced watches in the past. Thanks

[Dan Pierce]

Looks legit to me. Very common for hands and dial to have different color patina on these. The date wheel looks like my 9411.
dP

[Michael M.]

Looks good to me! The guy selling it is also known as Motts on VRF.

[larryccf]

hands and dial - it's not real apparent from this photo but it's one i had already up on photobucket - taken with a six yr old camera by someone who can barely use any camera to it's full potential. In real life the difference on mine is not as "great" as that dial, but still there's a difference

when i first inspected mine closely, i wondered same as you but the painted material filling in the hands has a smoother surface than the material over the markers - suspect they used a different binder as the material is hanging over free air (unsupported) unlike the material applied to the dial

suspicions of an old fart, fwiw

[Dan Pierce]

Originally Posted by larryccf

hands and dial - it's not real apparent from this photo but it's one i had already up on photobucket - taken with a six yr old camera by someone who can barely use any camera to it's full potential. In real life the difference on mine is not as "great" as that dial, but still there's a difference

when i first inspected mine closely, i wondered same as you but the painted material filling in the hands has a smoother surface than the material over the markers - suspect they used a different binder as the material is hanging over free air (unsupported) unlike the material applied to the dial

suspicions of an old fart, fwiw

Or, possibly the dial and hands were sourced from two different suppliers.
dP

[bagel]

Originally Posted by RSGMD

Looking to purchase a Tudor Sub. Asking for thought on this one http://www.ebay.com/itm/70s-Tudor-Su...item2ebb601f57
Any thought on hans and date wheel.
Seller has sold high priced watches in the past. Thanks

Look ok to me .....

[larryccf]

Originally Posted by Dan Pierce

Or, possibly the dial and hands were sourced from two different suppliers.
dP

while it does seem odd for tudor to have done that, in the interests of maintaining consistent color match, considering all of the indeciperable anomalies in the tudors, anything's possible

on the unasked question of whether i'd buy one with that much disparity - i don't know that i would. I guess price would play a part, to some degree

[Dan Pierce]

Originally Posted by larryccf

while it does seem odd for tudor to have done that, in the interests of maintaining consistent color match, considering all of the indeciperable anomalies in the tudors, anything's possible

on the unasked question of whether i'd buy one with that much disparity - i don't know that i would. I guess price would play a part, to some degree

Differing levels of patina on hands and dials is part of the natural aging process of Tudor subs. Most would probably want matching patina if possible. But because these anomalies are so common it wouldn't, and hasn't, stopped me or many others from purchasing otherwise fine examples. In fact, as long as the original lume is not disturbed the various levels of patina add character, IMHO. Your milage may vary.
dP

[larryccf]

[QUOTE=Dan Pierce;3073109]Differing levels of patina on hands and dials is part of the natural aging process of Tudor subs. Most would probably want matching patina if possible. But because these anomalies are so common it wouldn't, and hasn't, stopped me or many others from purchasing otherwise fine examples. In fact, as long as the original lume is not disturbed the various levels of patina add character, IMHO. Your milage may vary.
dP

I'll accept that the apparent high population of mismatched hand/dial patinas is not a case of replaced hand sets but I disagree that it is normal, and the fact they exist and are original, to me is no indication to want them or accept them. Rather i kinda lean toward the assessment that it's demonstrative of tudor not putting their best game on, to have continued to assemble them with hand sets that wouldn't at least patina consistently with their original dials - if not consistent to the dial (which is what should have been the target), at least consistent from one watch handset to the next. The disparites on differing patina is more than slight.

I'd think Tudor would have noticed what was happening with their dials & handsets "patinaing" differently, and at some point taken some corrective action in-house. IRRC, rolex, when their lacquered dials started spider web cracking, they changed their formulation or dictated a new one from their supplier. Now i know that some find the spider cracking desirable from a collector standpoint - i don't, even though it represents a "rare" version. Same with this issue - the next buyer (especially if he is a new to tudor 94XXs buyer), is going to wonder if those are replacement hands, if the disparity continues to grow. And this issue is different from the case of the spider cracking dials being the rarer, because they were used for a relatively short period, by rolex.

The reason i jumped on the one i pictured earlier, was because the disparity was minimal and i wanted a snowie to replace the three i'd sold, which were reasonably close in patina, one a 94110, one a 9411 and the other a 9411/0

I've got some other shots of 94xx on the home computer with similiar matching patina dials/handsets to the ones pictured below, but the point is, while i've seen a number of non-matching patina'd snowies, i think you may be giving the OP the impression this is not only normal, but normal in the sense that that is how they all are, when in fact a good number of snowies don't exhibit mis-matched patina. I think the buyer might want to know that or at least be aware of that, so that he/she might be a little more discriminating in his first snowie purchase. As long as he's aware of that, and accepts it, that's his/her perogative.

At the very least, the one i posted earlier and the two pictured below, at least demonstrates there are snowies without major disparity in the dial/handset patina.

first one, a 1976 94110 I purchased and sold here on this forum


a 9411/0 snowie that was up for sale recently on VRF with S/N 848xxx, so it would also be a mid 70s vintage (if my memory on the S/Ns is correct)

[RSGMD]

Thanks for info and education. What pricepoint would you think would be reasonable and would 558b end links work.

[Dan Pierce]

[QUOTE=larryccf;3073320]

Originally Posted by Dan Pierce

Differing levels of patina on hands and dials is part of the natural aging process of Tudor subs. Most would probably want matching patina if possible. But because these anomalies are so common it wouldn't, and hasn't, stopped me or many others from purchasing otherwise fine examples. In fact, as long as the original lume is not disturbed the various levels of patina add character, IMHO. Your milage may vary.
dP

I'll accept that the apparent high population of mismatched hand/dial patinas is not a case of replaced hand sets but I disagree that it is normal, and the fact they exist and are original, to me is no indication to want them or accept them. Rather i kinda lean toward the assessment that it's demonstrative of tudor not putting their best game on, to have continued to assemble them with hand sets that wouldn't at least patina consistently with their original dials - if not consistent to the dial (which is what should have been the target), at least consistent from one watch handset to the next. The disparites on differing patina is more than slight.

I'd think Tudor would have noticed what was happening with their dials & handsets "patinaing" differently, and at some point taken some corrective action in-house. IRRC, rolex, when their lacquered dials started spider web cracking, they changed their formulation or dictated a new one from their supplier. Now i know that some find the spider cracking desirable from a collector standpoint - i don't, even though it represents a "rare" version. Same with this issue - the next buyer (especially if he is a new to tudor 94XXs buyer), is going to wonder if those are replacement hands, if the disparity continues to grow. And this issue is different from the case of the spider cracking dials being the rarer, because they were used for a relatively short period, by rolex.

The reason i jumped on the one i pictured earlier, was because the disparity was minimal and i wanted a snowie to replace the three i'd sold, which were reasonably close in patina, one a 94110, one a 9411 and the other a 9411/0

I've got some other shots of 94xx on the home computer with similiar matching patina dials/handsets to the ones pictured below, but the point is, while i've seen a number of non-matching patina'd snowies, i think you may be giving the OP the impression this is not only normal, but normal in the sense that that is how they all are, when in fact a good number of snowies don't exhibit mis-matched patina. I think the buyer might want to know that or at least be aware of that, so that he/she might be a little more discriminating in his first snowie purchase. As long as he's aware of that, and accepts it, that's his/her perogative.

At the very least, the one i posted earlier and the two pictured below, at least demonstrates there are snowies without major disparity in the dial/handset patina.

first one, a 1976 94110 I purchased and sold here on this forum


a 9411/0 snowie that was up for sale recently on VRF with S/N 848xxx, so it would also be a mid 70s vintage (if my memory on the S/Ns is correct)

Tudor did see early deterioration of dials on Subs and moved to employ a special coating to their dials in 1975. Aging of dials and hands are subject to many conditions, moisture, light, temp, etc. Add to that the volume of lume installed on hands vs dials will also contribute to the degree of patina.
I never said find matching patina within hands and dials was nonexistent. At the same time finding a difference in patina on all original specimens is just as, if not more, common.
dP

[larryccf]

[QUOTE=Dan Pierce;3073537]

Originally Posted by larryccf

Tudor did see early deterioration of dials on Subs and moved to employ a special coating to their dials in 1975. Aging of dials and hands are subject to many conditions, moisture, light, temp, etc. Add to that the volume of lume installed on hands vs dials will also contribute to the degree of patina.
I never said find matching patina within hands and dials was nonexistent. At the same time finding a difference in patina on all original specimens is just as, if not more, common.
dP

i dis-agree there - if, as you state, 1975 was the date tudor did notice and took corrective action, considering the number of years 94XX series watches were offered after that date (that 1988 catalog posted the other day in the 76100/94xx thread still showed 94010) then by year count alone, the population of matching or near matching patina'd hands/dials would vastly outnumber the non-matching

additionally, the position that mismatched hand/dial sets are more common gives cover to sellers that would represent a watch as "all original" when in fact the hands have been replaced - a lot of the newbie buyers aren't going to have the expert eye you do, and that's the danger.

as you state: " Aging of dials and hands are subject to many conditions, moisture, light, temp, etc..." I agree wholeheartedly, which is why i stated my suspicion for why the hands patina'd less than the dials because of the possibility of tudor sealing the hands to re-inforce them due to the greater open area of the lume exposed to the surrounding environment (air, humidity, light etc) both rear and front sides being exposed, as well as to give them greater integrity or strength as the lume is hanging over unsupported open space. You responded that it was also a case or could also be a case of tudor sourcing hands from a different supplier than the dials. I'm not sure how you determined that but unless you've got some seriously hard evidence supporting that, i'd have to question that supposition - Tudor wasn't a novice at building watches - why would they do that and run the risk of mis-matching them to begin with - that supposition doesn't pass my logic test, but my logic test isn't the final test. Do you have evidence of that?

i think at this point in this discussion, lines or postions have been drawn and appear pretty well hardened. I won't feel the need for any further engagement

[oldbronco]

I with you , Dan. I bought this last May from a very well known & honest vintage dealer in San Francisco. it's all original, & note the slightly different patina.

[Dan Pierce]

[QUOTE=larryccf;3073557]

Originally Posted by Dan Pierce

i dis-agree there - if, as you state, 1975 was the date tudor did notice and took corrective action, considering the number of years 94XX series watches were offered after that date (that 1988 catalog posted the other day in the 76100/94xx thread still showed 94010) then by year count alone, the population of matching or near matching patina'd hands/dials would vastly outnumber the non-matching

additionally, the position that mismatched hand/dial sets are more common gives cover to sellers that would represent a watch as "all original" when in fact the hands have been replaced - a lot of the newbie buyers aren't going to have the expert eye you do, and that's the danger.

as you state: " Aging of dials and hands are subject to many conditions, moisture, light, temp, etc..." I agree wholeheartedly, which is why i stated my suspicion for why the hands patina'd less than the dials because of the possibility of tudor sealing the hands to re-inforce them due to the greater open area of the lume exposed to the surrounding environment (air, humidity, light etc) both rear and front sides being exposed, as well as to give them greater integrity or strength as the lume is hanging over unsupported open space. You responded that it was also a case or could also be a case of tudor sourcing hands from a different supplier than the dials. I'm not sure how you determined that but unless you've got some seriously hard evidence supporting that, i'd have to question that supposition - Tudor wasn't a novice at building watches - why would they do that and run the risk of mis-matching them to begin with - that supposition doesn't pass my logic test, but my logic test isn't the final test. Do you have evidence of that?

i think at this point in this discussion, lines or postions have been drawn and appear pretty well hardened. I won't feel the need for any further engagement

Larry,

I'm open to new info at all times. No, I don't have any evidence of Tudor sourcing their dials and hands from separate suppliers. Read it from a reliable source but can't remember where, sorry. Plus, Tudor history is even more difficult to find than Rolex.

But it's common knowledge even Rolex sourced from many suppliers over the years and didn't even make their own bracelets until Rolex bought the firm supplying them in the 70's [I think].

I'm not even close to being an expert, nor have I ever claimed to be. And I appreciate your insight on the subject because this ol' dog would like to learn more.

Thanks for your contribution to the subject matter and hope you will continue to dispense what you know.
dP

[larryccf]

a little insight on why i found the sourcing handsets from a different supplier than the dials - i'm in mfgring. Something like this i'd be (and i'm using logic here that is common to mfgring), but i'd be sourcing from the same supplier, not only for the reason stated above, but basic efficiency of time and effort, ie source from one supplier, not two. Even if the dial maker, handset maker and luming ops were all different suppliers, i'd choose one, probably the dial maker, and select him as the "lead" supplier - lead supplier would then be responsible to source the handsets to match his dial and layout (size wise etc) and have them lumed. He would receive them, send out for luming (assuming he doesn't lume inhouse) and inspect all before shipping to me.

That takes more than one monkey off my back - first, letting him do all the "sub" sourcing, ordering, etc, but also, in the event of a problem with luming, if i had brought the items in and sent out for luming (or had them shipped direct to lume shop), if there was a problem, the lume shop could point their finger at the handsets saying "well the problem with the hands - the plating wasn't to our spec or needs, or the plating was loose" (you wouldn't believe the excuses i've heard). This way, they deal with it themselves and work it out themselves - Presumably whoever was the lead supplier would have a working relationship with the subs and they'd already know what to expect from each other and what each can get away with.

and trust me, i'm no expert - i'm sure you've got a data bank of details at your fingertips far greater than i have.

[Dan Pierce]

Here's a link to the info about Tudors reaction to dials in 1975 [scroll down].
http://forumamontres.forumactif.com/...dor-submariner

Sure got an itch to wear a snowflake tomorrow.
dP

[BaltimoreBrian]

having been watching these blue snowflakes the past several months, my feeling about the price point is $2200-$2500 is fair for this particular watch, as i saw its posting. If you want one and a few extra hundred $'s doesn't bother you, then the $2700-$2900 might be doable. A decent Tudor bracelet with end links will be about $500+. These watches don't pop up every day, but every few months they do. My 2 cents, but i would be interested in what Dan and Larry have to say about price.

only 30 min left on the auction

[lhanddds]

I'm very interested in the blue flakes but have not pulled the trigger yet. This was good info. Thanks

[BaltimoreBrian]

Sold on the bay for $2939

[TheChimp]

So, did you get it?

[linesiders]

OP - did you win the auction?

Near twin to mine in many ways.

Is it me or does there seem to be an uptick again in the popularity of Snowflakes? Blue in particular?

[Tudor66]

This watch jumped up to end near 3k. The snowflake is a pretty nice looking watch...Enjoy, whoever won it...

[azguy]

Originally Posted by oldbronco

I with you , Dan. I bought this last May from a very well known & honest vintage dealer in San Francisco. it's all original, & note the slightly different patina.

Ah, amazing watch oldbronco

[larryccf]

Originally Posted by Newbieone

This watch jumped up to end near 3k. The snowflake is a pretty nice looking watch...Enjoy, whoever won it...

hey, that's good news for me. That snowie w/o the bezel up above, i'm into it way too much - figured by the time i was thru, it'd be the year 2020 before value caught up with what i was into it for

looks like i can adjust that to 2016