VC holy trinity???

[lapince]

Originally Posted by masyv6

Especially given that brands like Lange are out there!

I would definitely prefer one from the Datograph line to any VC, except a Minute repeater, but clearly not possible financially to get a MR...

[Hollister]

Well, there we go, we all like different things. I'd never buy any Lange, preferring FPJ, and the VC Patrimony is probably the nicest dress watch I've seen.

[capote]

Originally Posted by lapince

I am shocked, whenever we talk about Vacheron here we always say, part of the holy trinity, but PJ just gave me a link that in fact VC was purchased by Vendome group in 96, which belongs to Richemont.

So why the hell are we still saying it's the holy trinity, when it doesn't belong like AP or PP to a family or families, but to a huge group?? Or maybe I missed something and PP and AP as well are not independent???

I never had a huge interest in VC, but I would be a little disgusted had I bought one thinking getting a watch from an independent, and finding out it is not at all independent...

Here's the link from the Richemont site about this, why are we still referring to them as "holy trinity" is the question, they clearly don't deserve the title IMHO, it's not because they were 20 years ago, they are already not for 20 years, so saying they are part of it is a little strange...

https://www.richemont.com/about-rich...vestments.html

Already in the 40's VC's majority share was bought by a holding company owning JLC and with that there was no more original family owners. I guess by then the Stern family had already bought Patek Philippe. So without ties to the original families both brands did extremely well, although I guess Patek Philippe was thought to be number one even in those days. AP still has family members on the board of directors so they are at least minority owners.

I don't see how ownership would be a consideration being in the trinity or not though. For what it is worth VC has made many great watch under Richemont as well as going in-house. As for Lange, they wouldn't even exist without Richemont. Call it a trinity or not, or substitute VC with Lange or Rolex if you want, its not a crime you know.

[ELITEVIDEOGAMES]

Originally Posted by kunlun

As long as VC has the chops to do something like this:
http://www.ablogtowatch.com/vacheron...-pocket-watch/

They are still one of the very best around. Conversation over!

I got to see this pocket watch recently. No photos allowed by request of the owner. It was amazing.

[improviz]

Originally Posted by lapince

Well for me making a one off masterpiece for an anniversary is one thing, I know they are a good brand, but as far as design and pricing goes, they are clearly lightyears behind other brands and totally off target, and that IMHO is a little more important, but if you love the brand that's great, wold be awful if we all loved the same brand

Subjective opinion does not equal fact. Fact is they produced the most complicated watch ever made, your attempt to minimize the fact so that you can engage in your favorite pastime of looking down your nose at brands you subjectively dislike notwithstanding.

This thread is nothing but flame bait IMO.

[Hollister]

I think the quality of the Overseas more than justifies the price, and the Chronograph version looks fantastic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pxR-FW5wMM

[lapince]

Well it's good some prefer the VCO to Nautilus, if all wanted a Nautilus I couldn't even get them in Switzerland, incredible I can't get one in my country from AD and luckily a TRF member has built a relationship with an AD who is getting me 2 and putting me on a good spot on the waiting list for a third...

Originally Posted by improviz

Subjective opinion does not equal fact. Fact is they produced the most complicated watch ever made, your attempt to minimize the fact so that you can engage in your favorite pastime of looking down your nose at brands you subjectively dislike notwithstanding.

This thread is nothing but flame bait IMO.

I'm just giving an opinion and objectively comparing, they did make the most complicated watch, but when I look at the VCO movements, 3 hander and chrono, they are very disappointing, the chrono is immensely thick, I have been trying to find one for a few days I would prefer over a Lange or Patek, and zip, their design is very old fashioned, maybe it's a choice but they clearly didn't go modern at all. Anyways to each their own, I was just shocked to know they were not independent as I was sure they were, also when 90% of members on a forum would clearly get a Lange or AP or PP before a VC, there is a reason I think, if they were so great it wouldn't be like this. take their equivalent of PP 5070, 5970, AP and PP sport lines, and I'm sorry but in any normal comparison between equivalent watches I guarantee VC will arrive last, like I said I almost got the LE VCO chrono not long ago, good I didn't, it would have sat in the bank once I would have got my incomings of the next few months, and would have had a hard time selling or would have lost quite a lot

Originally Posted by Hollister

I think the quality of the Overseas more than justifies the price, and the Chronograph version looks fantastic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pxR-FW5wMM

You don't think the movement on the 3 hander and chrono are boring to look at? and I really love movements and am not so difficult on that, couldn't believe when I saw them, and that the chrono is way too thick? quality is one thing, but why do Nautilus and RO are so high priced? Because they are legendary watches and have a huge cult following, 2 things VCO are not, but I find it great people like them, just think commercially it will be a failure

[Hollister]

If I was allowed to kick out one member of the Trinity, it would be AP for their ROO range of ugly monstrosities and seemingly unlimited "limited editions" thereof. JMO, don't shoot me!

[lapince]

Originally Posted by Hollister

If I was allowed to kick out one member of the Trinity, it would be AP for their ROO range of ugly monstrosities and seemingly unlimited "limited editions" thereof. JMO, don't shoot me!

not going to shoot you, I love some ROO, they are like RM's, ultimate luxury sport watches, I get that you are more into more classical designs, nothing wrong with that, me it's the contrary, the only "old" designs I like are Nautilus and RO, when you think they were made in the 70's but are incredibly actual and original 40 years later now that is quite an achievement

[Hollister]

The original Royal Oak is great, IMO, and a direct competitor to the Nautilus.

[lapince]

Originally Posted by Hollister

The original Royal Oak is great, IMO, and a direct competitor to the Nautilus.

Totally, both amazing watches designed by probably the most iconic watch designer, he preferred the Royal Oak, I prefer the other with it's ears, but the Jumbo us a killer as well, if it had a second hand I would get one, but they try to stay true to the original, I just need to see something move on a watch dial

[Tony64]

Originally Posted by Hollister

The original Royal Oak is great, IMO, and a direct competitor to the Nautilus.

Isn't there a big difference though in the water resistance of these 2, strongly favoring the Nautilus?

I agree that AP is nowadays really the Royal Oak watch company, and while I'm not a huge fan of either of these "sports" models, I think the nod goes to Nautilus for at least making a watch that can take a swim!

[Hollister]

I honestly don't know about the RO WR. It's a really nice watch, but my heart lies elsewhere.

[Tony64]

50m only for the RO, 120m for the N.

Similar styling but unless it's used as a dress piece, I'd rather have the greater water resistance. Makes it a more all purpose watch- beach to boardroom.

[Hollister]

I have a Naut 5712, there is no way I would take it swimming, but I think the WR is a lot less than the 5711, presumably because of the pushers.

My 16610 is my beach watch.

[Tony64]

Originally Posted by Hollister

I have a Naut 5712, there is no way I would take it swimming, but I think the WR is a lot less than the 5711, presumably because of the pushers.

My 16610 is my beach watch.

Good decision with the 5712 with only 60m WR, but I think the fair comparison with the RO is more with the 5711 and in that case the WR is a factor - at least for me.

[Hollister]

Yes, a good point and I agree, I'd take a 5711 over anything from AP. It's too similar to the 5712 to make sense in my limited collection, though. Having said that I have three old steel Subs!

[lapince]

Originally Posted by Tony64

Isn't there a big difference though in the water resistance of these 2, strongly favoring the Nautilus?

I agree that AP is nowadays really the Royal Oak watch company, and while I'm not a huge fan of either of these "sports" models, I think the nod goes to Nautilus for at least making a watch that can take a swim!

Well AP decided to make the ROO's water resistant enough, not the RO's

Originally Posted by Hollister

I honestly don't know about the RO WR. It's a really nice watch, but my heart lies elsewhere.

Did you see the 15202? In real not in pics? Amazing watch, perfect proportions, while the 15400 didn't have any effect on me this one did

Originally Posted by Tony64

Good decision with the 5712 with only 60m WR, but I think the fair comparison with the RO is more with the 5711 and in that case the WR is a factor - at least for me.

The 5712 is my favorite Nautilus but yes the 15202 should be compared with the 5711, love both but prefer 5711

Originally Posted by Hollister

Yes, a good point and I agree, I'd take a 5711 over anything from AP. It's too similar to the 5712 to make sense in my limited collection, though. Having said that I have three old steel Subs!

Oh I think if you love steel watches with blue dials having a 15202 and 5711 would be great, some here have a 5711 and 5712, one even has these 2 and a 5712R, I would love having these 3

[KarlS]

Some say the chrono is vastly superior on VC to PP but who knows

[improviz]

Originally Posted by lapince

I'm just giving an opinion and objectively comparing,

Hardly. You always find an excuse to bash brands as you perceive as inferior to your own, i.e. brands you didn't choose to purchase...you did the same thing with AP until you got one, which of course then became the best one in the AP ROO lineup, as you love to point out in pretty much every thread in which some other ROO comes up..

Originally Posted by lapince

they did make the most complicated watch, but when I look at the VCO movements, 3 hander and chrono, they are very disappointing, the chrono is immensely thick,

Immensely thick? Compared to what? The chrono movement is, per their spec, 6.60mm thick; the Patek Nautilus chrono movement (ref. CH 28-520 C) is 6.63 mm thick. The Rolex 4130 chrono is 6.5 mm thick, and it has no date complication.

It also has 54 jewels to the CH 28-520 C's 35, and has anti-magnetic protection to 25,000 A/m, is a column-wheel chrono and has the Hallmark of Geneva (aka Geneva Seal), which says a lot. You can read about the criterion to achieve it here:
http://www.vacheron-constantin.com/en/geneva-seal.html

As to decoration: subjective. Looking over the CH 28-520 C, I don't see anything there that would shame the VC movement in terms of finishing, both look nice but if movement finishing were your first concern, I would suggest you look elsewhere as there are other offerings from any of the Trinity that put these to shame in that department, for example these from VC:
http://blog.perpetuelle.com/sihh/sih...ques-ajourees/
Example:









Sorry that you seem to feel that their being purchased by Richmont somehow strips them of all of their watchmaking history and heritage, but it's an opinion that really is based on nothing more than prejudices in my view.

[lapince]

Originally Posted by improviz

Hardly. You always find an excuse to bash brands as you perceive as inferior to your own, i.e. brands you didn't choose to purchase...you did the same thing with AP until you got one, which of course then became the best one in the lineup, as you love to point out in pretty much every thread in which some other ROO comes up..



Immensely thick? Compared to what? The chrono movement is, per their spec, 6.60mm thick; the Patek Nautilus chrono movement (ref. CH 28-520 C) is 6.63 mm thick. The Rolex 4130 chrono is 6.5 mm thick, and it has no date complication.

It also has 54 jewels to the CH 28-520 C's 35, and has anti-magnetic protection to 25,000 A/m, is a column-wheel chrono and has the Hallmark of Geneva (aka Geneva Seal), which says a lot. You can read about the criterion to achieve it here:
http://www.vacheron-constantin.com/en/geneva-seal.html

As to decoration: subjective. Looking over the CH 28-520 C, I don't see anything there that would shame the VC movement in terms of finishing, both look nice but if movement finishing were your first concern, I would suggest you look elsewhere as there are other offerings from any of the Trinity that put these to shame in that department, for example these from VC:

Sorry that you seem to feel that their being purchased by Richmont somehow strips them of all of their watchmaking history and heritage, but it's an opinion that really is based on nothing more than prejudices in my view.

You're right I didn't like AP but after a few years I changed my mind, they are not the best watches in the world, but yes the ceramic on the diver is incredibly well finished. I think we all change our minds, in France we say only imbeciles don't change their's, who knows maybe one day I will want a VC, I almost did a few months back. When I first saw the 15400 I really didn't like it much, something was off, but when I saw a Jumbo for the first time it was perfect, the bigger proportions IMO just don't go very well with that kind of dial, as I don't think a bigger 5711 would look very nice. I used to love Rolex and Pams but don't anymore, sure the no date sub, ceramic black dial daytona are 2 watches I may consider one day for a beater, but their other offerings are not really for me, had the BLNR, sub LV and LN and RG Daytona on strap, in Pams had 233 dot dial, 082 and 028, basically the comfort of the 5712? 5726 and AP ce diver just killed these for me, I couldn't wear them for 1 hour without feeling discomfort and taking them off...

I never said that VC was a bad brand, I know they are capable of doing incredible things, but IMO the VCO line is quite disappointing in terms of thickness, the chrono as I remember is almost as thick as my ROO, in price, they priced them as high as iconic RO's and Nautilus, when they clearly don't have the iconic status, very bad strategy IMO, had they made a SS 3 hander for 15k with blue dial I may even have been interested to get one on the grey market later, it would make a nice daily I suppose, apart from very few lovers of the brand they are clearly not very interesting for other watch lovers which will clearly prefer the AP 15202 or PP 5711 for the same price range, for quality I'm sure they are well made, have no doubt about it, I was even waiting for them to come out thinking I would like to get one as I am getting 2 Patek soon and at the prices I was hoping it would have benefice to have AP, AP and VC, the pics you put are on high end pieces, wonderful movements for sure, let's just put the 3 hand VC as well as the 15202 and 5711 shall we, and we'll see which is best in beauty, no need to compare apples to oranges, and the VC movement, as I illustrated with 2 pics on another thread, looks the same on both sides, not one side boring and the other WOW, nope I even put the nicest part of the movement to be fair, I'm sorry but I like to look at a nice movement, for me it is a big part of having a nice watch. You know I don't hate VC as I was almost ready to buy the SS/TI chrono LE of 340.

They clearly make quality watches but they are a little old fashioned IMO, anyways time will tell but I can't imagine how they will have great sales with the VCO's at that price range.

It's not that I consider them being owned by Richemont awful, I just thought that being called the holy trinity meant being family owned, or in some way independent, and knowing they weren't kind of shocked me as I am quite into watches and it's the first time I hear this, I love Lange and wold love having one day the datograph perpetual in WG, and I perfectly know they are not independent, have a crappy resale, but saw them in real, ok it was the pt, but same movement though I prefer the dark grey WG dial to the PT one, and WOW, amazing for a watch you can find preowned for 70-80k

[improviz]

You're evading it a bit, but your point in starting this thread was whether or not VC belongs in the Holy Trinity of watchmakers. Beyond a shadow of a doubt, they do.

Yes, the VC pieces I showed are high end, which is where you want to go if you want exceptional movement finishing, full stop. None of the sports watches being discussed here are in the league of the top end pieces from any of the Trinity in terms of movement finishing; they look nice but next to the top end stuff they look pretty mundane, those high end pieces are amazing and clearly show why VC is so highly regarded in the world of haute horlogerie.

First you said the movement is too thick, so now when I provide numbers that show otherwise you switch to case?...OK, it is a whopping 1mm thicker than the Patek chrono, not a show stopper in my book but ymmv. So we can agree that the movement is not "too thick" at 6.3 mm?

Again, you're throwing up the three movements as though the VC looks horrid in comparison to the others, and I again point out that this is your *opinion*, so please stop portraying it as though it is an iron clad *fact*; it isn't. Subjectively all three look fairly similar in finish-out to me, all very nice but frankly the movement finishing on any of the Trinity's sports watches (excluding the stunning AP RO skeletons) pales in comparison to their high end pieces and is simply not high up on my list of reasons to buy one, I'm more interested in case and dial finish on sports watches, and all three do a fine job here.

Personally I think AP's case and bracelet finishing are the best of the three, I know you would disagree being a PP lover but I don't care.

And fwiw I'm not a fan of the look of the new VC OS, I liked the old one better as it flowed better in my view (particularly case shape, 12:00 dual-window date, and thicker bracelet flowing better into case), and had a nicer look to it overall, and I agree, I doubt this particular model will be a runaway success, but that's based upon case and dial appearance, not movement finishing.

But, unfortunately that's a side issue and is not the topic of this thread. VC clearly belongs in the HT, ownership be damned. Lange is also owned by Richmont, and anyway PP is not owned by a descendent of either Antoni Patek nor Franciszek Czapek, but by the Stern family.

The only one of the three still owned by descendants of the founding family would be none other than Audemars Piguet.

[lapince]

Originally Posted by improviz

You're evading it a bit, but your point in starting this thread was whether or not VC belongs in the Holy Trinity of watchmakers. Beyond a shadow of a doubt, they do.

Yes, the VC pieces I showed are high end, which is where you want to go if you want exceptional movement finishing, full stop. None of the sports watches being discussed here are in the league of the top end pieces from any of the Trinity in terms of movement finishing; they look nice but next to the top end stuff they look pretty mundane, those high end pieces are amazing and clearly show why VC is so highly regarded in the world of haute horlogerie.

First you said the movement is too thick, so now when I provide numbers that show otherwise you switch to case?...OK, it is a whopping 1mm thicker than the Patek chrono, not a show stopper in my book but ymmv. So we can agree that the movement is not "too thick" at 6.3 mm?

Again, you're throwing up the three movements as though the VC looks horrid in comparison to the others, and I again point out that this is your *opinion*, so please stop portraying it as though it is an iron clad *fact*; it isn't. Subjectively all three look fairly similar in finish-out to me, all very nice but frankly the movement finishing on any of the Trinity's sports watches (excluding the stunning AP RO skeletons) pales in comparison to their high end pieces and is simply not high up on my list of reasons to buy one, I'm more interested in case and dial finish on sports watches, and all three do a fine job here.

Personally I think AP's case and bracelet finishing are the best of the three, I know you would disagree being a PP lover but I don't care.

And fwiw I'm not a fan of the look of the new VC OS, I liked the old one better as it flowed better in my view (particularly case shape, 12:00 dual-window date, and thicker bracelet flowing better into case), and had a nicer look to it overall, and I agree, I doubt this particular model will be a runaway success, but that's based upon case and dial appearance, not movement finishing.

But, unfortunately that's a side issue and is not the topic of this thread. VC clearly belongs in the HT, ownership be damned. Lange is also owned by Richmont, and anyway PP is not owned by a descendent of either Antoni Patek nor Franciszek Czapek, but by the Stern family.

The only one of the three still owned by descendants of the founding family would be none other than Audemars Piguet.

I was not saying too thick about the movement but the case, if I wrote movement then it was a typo, sorry.

No I agree that bracelet and case is better finished on the AP Jumbo than Nautilus, I just prefer the Nautilus design with the ears and the very chameleon dial which is much more chameleon than AP, but finishing yes the AP is better, the bracelet especially is stunning.

I don't know for me the VC movement on the 3 hander is really boring, you only see plates and nothing more, makes me think of the Pam 233 movement which I had, sure well finished but extremely plain and really nothing special while the 5712, 5726 movements when I had them always put a smile on my face, and my AP diver movement is also quite nice to look at though nothing extraordinary, I don't think it's just my point of view only, 1 movement you basically only see plates hiding the inner parts of the mvt, the others you see many other things which for guys who love movements is always nice, even if the top is an open manual movement, Lange Datograph for example, but as you said you don't care much about that part, I really do and if I put more than 10k in a watch with open back I really want an interesting, not only well finished plates, movements to look at. Though the WT movement is quite nice, and has similarities with AP ROO movements IMHO.

But I totally agree with your ideas on the new VCO's, I was expecting something great since they were going with in house movement and see through back and was disappointed, I also liked the big date of previous models, think they made a mistake to take it off, but I may be wrong...

Yeah I know that only AP family is still in the business, again this is not a deciding factor for me, but I always thought that holy trinity meant independent as one of the factors, not obligatory from the founding families of course, of course there are some incredible VC's, one in particular, Tour de L'ile, which is quite amazing and would probably be my choice for a super complicated watch, I could get one but I would need to sell all my real estate and I would be living in the street but with an awesome watch