The Official Formula One Thread!

[daveathall]

I think that F1 is in that unenviable position (of their own making) of being damned if they do and damned if they don't. I think that they are working out how to "save face" without being looked at as soft. I think that they should deduct points for the drivers championship for 2021 for RBR, a decent fine and the money they overspent, to be deducted from their cap limit for next season.

That's my opinion.

Excuse my grammar and the overuse of the word "think," it's how I would talk. (and overthink things).

[JoeJoeBobo]

Originally Posted by daveathall

I think that F1 is in that unenviable position (of their own making) of being damned if they do and damned if they don't. I think that they are working out how to "save face" without being looked at as soft. I think that they should deduct points for the drivers championship for 2021 for RBR, a decent fine and the money they overspent, to be deducted from their cap limit for next season.

That's my opinion.

Excuse my grammar and the overuse of the word "think," it's how I would talk. (and overthink things).

Sports as a business condones cheating by not truly condemning it see MLB, F1, Serie A, NFL, basically name a sport that doesn’t have one?

Lately even fishing, chess, and poker tournaments are not immune.

[77T]

Originally Posted by daveathall

and the money they overspent, to be deducted from their cap limit for next season.

Excuse my grammar and the overuse of the word "think," it's how I would talk. (and overthink things).

[ Edited for date error ]

With regard to deducting amount from the cap, it must be for the 2023 season (at least by the current ruleset I provided above).

It’s very possible such a sanction would be in the $7-12MM range and might put RBR into breach due to existing spend + commitments for remainder of this season in new RBR engines.

Horner may have been asking to pay a higher cash fine to reduce any cap impact.

In a selfish way, if it were me alone, I’d prefer a larger cash fine now. I say selfish because that’s how ASN’s officials benefit their programs for road safety, event staffing and training resources.

And regarding “thinking” - don’t apologize, Dave. Thinking is good. It’s when people react emotionally that facts go out the window.


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[INC]

Originally Posted by daveathall

I think that they should deduct points for the drivers championship for 2021 for RBR

Look, I personally understand that you want to see Hamilton as an eight-time world champion. But let's be honest. The way he drove last year and the amount of damage he caused to Red Bull, he is the one who don't deserve this title at all, and especially not in this form. However for me this issue is not related to Hamilton. I'm simply disturbed by the incitement against RB based on rumors and unconfirmed information. The fact that scribblers and the other teams don't care about anything but want to see blood and to depriving Max of a well-deserved victory is simply disgusting in my opinion.

By the way, I think that if the FIA ​​took away Max's world championship title, it would also mean the death sentence for F1. In this case, they may suffer such a loss of prestige that they would never be able to recover from.

However I'm agree with you in one aspect: I don't want to open a debate about this case, because the Big4 and the best lawyers are doing just that in the background. For me TRF is not a place to get down to the scribblers level.

Lets enjoy the race, it almost begins

[enjoythemusic]

Yes, very sad of his passing. He did so much for so many.

#Gratitude

[daveathall]

Originally Posted by INC

Look, I personally understand that you want to see Hamilton as an eight-time world champion. But let's be honest. The way he drove last year and the amount of damage he caused to Red Bull, he is the one who don't deserve this title at all, and especially not in this form. However for me this issue is not related to Hamilton. I'm simply disturbed by the incitement against RB based on rumors and unconfirmed information. The fact that scribblers and the other teams don't care about anything but want to see blood and to depriving Max of a well-deserved victory is simply disgusting in my opinion.

By the way, I think that if the FIA ​​took away Max's world championship title, it would also mean the death sentence for F1. In this case, they may suffer such a loss of prestige that they would never be able to recover from.

However I'm agree with you in one aspect: I don't want to open a debate about this case, because the Big4 and the best lawyers are doing just that in the background. For me TRF is not a place to get down to the scribblers level.

Lets enjoy the race, it almost begins

I meant the constructors championship, my error.

If you read back through my comments, I wouldn't want Hamilton to win it by this route. I wouldn't want Max to lose his championship this way. My comment you quoted was a mistake. You are right though, lets hope for a good race today.

Originally Posted by daveathall

I think it is just best left as it is, all the history books have been written now and should remain. (that's just my opinion) I think that the punishment should come in next season, a fine and perhaps the overspend being taken from that years budget.

[77T]

Originally Posted by INC

By the way, I think that if the FIA ​​took away Max's world championship title, it would also mean the death sentence for F1.

MBS, as an ex-driver, would not let that happen methinks.

I’m in a wedding right now and they are running late


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[enjoythemusic]

Bride bailed?

[joli160]

Great race today, so much action going on everywhere on this very nice circuit.
Fun watching and my eyes were glued to the screen. More of this please.

[77T]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

Bride bailed?

No - just on Island Time.


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[77T]

Haas Protest of Alpine & RBR?
Technical Infringement

RBR summoned - and Alpine.

They went in about 15 minutes ago.


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[enjoythemusic]

It's Texas, can't they just arm wrestle or something? Maybe a contest of who can ride the bull the longest?

If this was the Vegas race I'd suggest.....

[JoeJoeBobo]

Only Christian Honer would use a death to side skirt a cheating scandal. If he is the voice (see every broadcast) of F1 racing the sport is lacking integrity and ultimately doomed!

[INC]

Alonso received a 30 second(!) penalty because he dared to race after his horrible accident with a "damaged" car! What the hell is going on here?

The FIA stated that they had not notified Alpine that Alonso should have been removed from the race(!) just because of a missing mirror, but after a complaint, they took away Alonso's points? What?

I think these decisions are getting more and more ridiculous and completely inconsistent. For example, when Hamilton drove with badly damaged front wings last year, nothing happened. When Haas had minor problems this year, they immediately ordered the replacement.

This is no longer a race, but a bad joke to kill the drivers' mentality, and to not to let them feel like real pilots. I think, what Alonso did after his horrible accident was a heroism. Punished him because he drove on? However in the same time Checco was not punished. What an inconsistency!

And in the same time what happened to the almost became serial killer pilot?

Nothing...

Well, you know, I don't like this at all.

[joli160]

Originally Posted by INC

Alonso received a 30 second(!) penalty because he dared to race after his horrible accident with a "damaged" car! What the hell is going on here?

The FIA stated that they had not notified Alpine that Alonso should have been removed from the race(!) just because of a missing mirror, but after a complaint, they took away Alonso's points? What?

I think these decisions are getting more and more ridiculous and completely inconsistent. For example, when Hamilton drove with badly damaged front wings last year, nothing happened. When Haas had minor problems this year, they immediately ordered the replacement.

This is no longer a race, but a bad joke to kill the drivers' mentality, and to not to let them feel like real pilots. I think, what Alonso did after his horrible accident was a heroism. Punished him because he drove on? However in the same time Checco was not punished. What an inconsistency!

And in the same time what happened to the almost became serial killer pilot?

Nothing...

Well, you know, I don't like this at all.

The stewards should have flagged down both Perez and Alonso to remove the loose wing part and mirror. Continue racing after that with or without wing or mirror. You don’t want this kind of debris on the track.

Punishing Alonso for this is way over the top. I wonder who made the complaint.
True sportsmanship at its best.

[1st amg]

Jeez, not only does F1 kill us with this awful sounding engines, but now they are killing us with limiting the capabilities of the drivers....I miss the F1 of the 80's, 90's and 2000's. The engines were all screaming their unique sounds and the drivers were allowed to race, swap engines and actually test the limits of the cars and their own talents.

[yoast]

Originally Posted by 1st amg

I miss the F1 of the 80's, 90's and 2000's.

I think this every single race.

[enjoythemusic]

The move to zero emissions should also bring 'zero' drivers. This will hallmark F1's logical conclusion to a reality eSport of sorts with wirelessly remote-controlled cars. This way no driver is in the car to be injured, so only the corner workers / flag staff and spectators are at risk. The racing should be better too as it reduces the current car's bloat in weight by ~70 kgs.

Hopefully a new proper racing league is formed by then, perhaps an offshoot of LIV yet for true auto racing enthusiasts. LIV desperately needs F1-style multi-camera TV coverage, so this could be a big win-win for fans of both sports.

[jatco]

:
Originally Posted by 1st amg View Post
I miss the F1 of the 80's, 90's and 2000's.

Originally Posted by yoast

I think this every single race.

....and the 70's...
You're not alone...

[SDGT3]

For me, Alonso was driver of the day.
He started P14 after an engine penalty
was up to P9 by lap 10
Late move by Stroll results in a crash and wheelie for appx. 150 meters
hits the wall with the left side of his car
drops to last place after the incident
finished P7 ahead of his teammate
only to get a penalty later for a loose mirror.
Oh, and he's 41 years old.

How does the FIA show their face at the track anymore after the last 12 months of incompetence? A penalty hours after the race? There was no black and orange flag shown whilst running for several laps during the race. HAAS should have made the complaint during the race... I don't know what else to say about how mismanaged F1 has become.

[Mifune]

boring...

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by SDGT3

For me, Alonso was driver of the day.

Yes!

[dba]

Originally Posted by JoeJoeBobo

Only Christian Honer would use a death to side skirt a cheating scandal. If he is the voice (see every broadcast) of F1 racing the sport is lacking integrity and ultimately doomed!

Originally Posted by SDGT3

How does the FIA show their face at the track anymore after the last 12 months of incompetence? A penalty hours after the race? There was no black and orange flag shown whilst running for several laps during the race. HAAS should have made the complaint during the race... I don't know what else to say about how mismanaged F1 has become.

Both of these exactly. We could dig up Max Mosely and Charlie Whiting and have better racing than we do now.

[77T]

Originally Posted by joli160

The stewards should have flagged down both Perez and Alonso to remove the loose wing part and mirror. Continue racing after that with or without wing or mirror. You don’t want this kind of debris on the track.

Punishing Alonso for this is way over the top. I wonder who made the complaint.
True sportsmanship at its best.

I'm guessing nobody read my post after the race...

Originally Posted by 77T

Haas Protest of Alpine & RBR?
Technical Infringement
RBR summoned - and Alpine.
They went in about 15 minutes ago.

Haas Protested both Alpine and Red Bull. The Race Director allowed both teams to race despite their compromised cars (one a wing end plate, the other a mirror that was damaged in a collision). FIA let them race. No official stopped them nor did an official meatball them, nor penalize them.

But when Haas filed protests, even as late as they did after the race - the Stewards must hear the cases. This takes time because they first must decide if there is any merit to the claims. Then have hearings for each. A very late Sunday night.

One was dismissed, one was upheld. I assure you no Stewards look forward to this pettiness - abhor it, actually. If I was going to call anyone out, it would be GS @ Haas...FWIW, the decision on ALO moved MAG up from P9 to P8 and gained him 2 extra points.

I get people being fans - but don't get fans who won't read the rules...
If the rules are hard to read then I agree - learning them takes years.

[77T]

Originally Posted by SDGT3

HAAS should have made the complaint during the race... I don't know what else to say about how mismanaged F1 has become.

My earlier post answered your other questions about timelines but I'll add this - Haas called Race Control twice to complain about the mirror. The RD chose to let ALO race. Isn't that what we want? Let them race if it's safe...

I support that decision - especially after the Abu Dhabi case last year finale. Had NW meatballed ALO, that would have been the end of his race. Hypothetically, if Alpine had protested NW for meatballing ALO - and if Alpine won the Protest - the Stewards could not have restored ALO to his prior running position. In other words, a meatball is like an instant death sentence... Never apply it during a race if you don't think its unsafe. NW said let them race.

As it turned out the only car behind ALO was far enough back that it would not have been a danger in Alpine's mind. BUT Haas (GS in particular) was PO'd because they had been meatballed earlier this season for an equipment problem.

[SDGT3]

Originally Posted by 77T

My earlier post answered your other questions about timelines but I'll add this - Haas called Race Control twice to complain about the mirror. The RD chose to let ALO race. Isn't that what we want? Let them race if it's safe...

Without question I'm in the "let them race" camp but not let them race and then penalize them hours later. The RD must have had reason to not pull Alonso in deeming the shaky mirror a non issue. If it was an issue then perhaps race control could have black and oranged Alonso and had the team pull the mirror from the car and go on. Does anyone know if not having a mirror on one side of the car is a violation?

We've been in endurance races where an unfurled black and furled black were given by different flag stations and start/finish. We tell the driver to stay out until we can verify with RC what the proper call is. Perhaps something like this could have been done? IDK, but this isn't the first time I've seen a loose mirror in F1. Since Charlie Whitings passing, I've seen nothing but FIA calls about as inconsistent as amateur level racing.

[1st amg]

Originally Posted by dba

Both of these exactly. We could dig up Max Mosely and Charlie Whiting and have better racing than we do now.

David, they rolled in their grave so many times over that they are no longer located where they were buried.

[jatco]

Originally Posted by 1st amg

David, they rolled in their grave so many times over that they are no longer located where they were buried.

[77T]

Originally Posted by SDGT3

Without question I'm in the "let them race" camp but not let them race and then penalize them hours later. The RD must have had reason to not pull Alonso in deeming the shaky mirror a non issue. If it was an issue then perhaps race control could have black and oranged Alonso and had the team pull the mirror from the car and go on. Does anyone know if not having a mirror on one side of the car is a violation?

We've been in endurance races where an unfurled black and furled black were given by different flag stations and start/finish. We tell the driver to stay out until we can verify with RC what the proper call is. Perhaps something like this could have been done? IDK, but this isn't the first time I've seen a loose mirror in F1. Since Charlie Whitings passing, I've seen nothing but FIA calls about as inconsistent as amateur level racing.

F1 cars must have 2 mirrors

14.2 Rear view mirrors
14.2.1 All cars must have two mirrors positioned symmetrically about the car’s centre plane and mounted so that the driver has visibility to the rear and both sides of the car.

Article 14 is under Safety Equipment.

Many mirrors come loose in a multitude of ways. Some from contact, some from materials failure, some from fastener failure, and some just bad design. Each situation requires a different analysis by a Race Director.

Even Charlie was accused of inconsistent decisions - but the truth is IDOTS. Not idiots, but IDOTS - It Depends On The Situation. Reports from corner marshals and analysis of live video help form an opinion and decision.


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[INC]

Originally Posted by 77T

I get people being fans - but don't get fans who won't read the rules...
If the rules are hard to read then I agree - learning them takes years.

Please don't take this as an offensive, but you've just confused me a bit.

If you are right then that means none of the F1 teams can be F1 fans as they had no idea Verstappen won the championship at Suzuka. Worse, it means the Stuarts hate this sport. And the teams no longer want to race, but to argue.

And the worst thing is that, according to the above, you may be completely right and that this is exactly the root of the problems.