Throwing a little gasoline on the Tiffany debate...

[IQ Publishing]

Let's see, I post a thread asking for input from other Tiffany owners to post similar examples in hopes of creating some knowledge in the vintage Rolex community.

Instead, I get nothing but smartass comments from people who have probably never owned (or even held) a Rolex Tiffany watch. And definitive statements from people who have no such knowledge.

At no time have I tried to state that this would be a way to authenticate a would-be Tiffany watch.

People claim that Tiffany would never make such crude engravings on their merchandise. So, I show you an example of just that yet I get nothing but more smartass comments.

Hmmm, and we wonder why forums get such a bad reputation as being nothing but a waste of time (no pun intended).

[MonBK]

Originally Posted by zeuloa

These are the kind of posts that should be avoided in my opinion. They contribute nothing to the discussion and are a distraction to the main topic of the thread. They are just waste!

You're absolutely right, my bad.

[JohnnyS.]

Originally Posted by IQ Publishing

Well, there are two different types of people in this world... those who look for the answers, and those who bury their head in the sand and cry when someone else finds the answer.

I'm with you on this, John. I think collectors put too much emphasis on Rolex, and Tiffany QC. These were mass produced watches created when Rolex were tool watches.

If someone scratched a number onto the lug, and behind the dial, they weren't thinking that 40 years later we'd be debating this. There were thinking about scratching a clear number that he could read when it comes time to mate the dials, movements, and cases.

The people who bought these three watches didn't give a tinker's damn about the back of the lugs. They just wanted a watch that was water proof, and accurate.

I hope you continue with this investigation, John. I'm sure if James Dowling had posted this, it would be taken as stone written gospel.

All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.
--Arthur Schopenhauer

[crowncollection]

its very interesting to me, i do not see this as a waste of time, if people have tiffany's post pictures of them

[mdw3]

Many collectors today forget that the original retail price of this watch when sold in 1964 was under $300. These were not the super-luxury watches of today, and I can assure you that NO customer of Tiffany & Co. in those days would ever have been such a nerd as to look at the back of a lug and exclaim in horror:

"There's a number crudely scratched on here!! I can't believe you cretins would perform such a horrible job of engraving your reference number, I AM NEVER BUYING ANY SUCH PIECE OF TRASH HERE! Good day SIR!"

This bit of dialogue never occurred in 1964. Ever. These numbers are absolutely related to Tifffany's special personalization of their dials, whether or not you care to believe it. I have owned MANY other documented early Tiffany Rolex watches, and they have OFTEN had these (always) crude engravings on the reverse of a lug. Perhaps someone has found this information enlightening.

Michael

[harry in montreal]

Unfortunately, you need the original papers to confirm the dial is legit. Sadly, these papers are easily faked too. Interesting observation. To the OP, even the wiseasses that made weird comments above will surely check the back of the lugs if they ever come across a Tiffany watch in person. Cheers to you OP

[CaveDiver]

Humm, so rolex would never leave such crude engravings visible?   Not so, Rolex does today confirmed by Rolex service center manager.  They engraved the watch’s serial number on the inside of the clasp of a new bracelet. They engrave the watch’s serial number on the bracelet as standard practice for all the watches that come in for servicing. They do this so they can keep track of which bracelet goes with what watch. When they service a watch, the bracelet gets separated from the watch and does not come back together until the end. A different group services the bracelets. 

Is this a s&@$ job?

[watchteacher]

Let me put this to rest. I was the Tiffany Repair Center supervisor during the time when they sold Rolex in the late 80's early to mid 90's, and afterwards after the relationship was terminated.

Rolex supplied watches to Tiffany with the Tiffany name, as well as watches that weren't marked Tiffany. (Some buyers didn't want the Tiffany name, so both were stocked). Rolex supplied spare dials both marked and unmarked Tiffany as spare parts.

Tiffany also owned/still owns a dial press with several sizes of the Tiffany & Co dies. At the time they sold Rolex, they also sold many other Swiss brands, many of whom supplied watches 'on memo'-so we would wait until the watch was sold before we stamped the dial. This could be done while the customer waited. If the watch never sold we could just give it back to the vendor.

As far as lug marking-I wasn't there in the 60's and 70's, but don't recall any of my watchmakers marking ANYTHING other than the inside of the caseback-and I changed the nomenclature and method (using indelible ink, rather than scribing) during my tenure.

I had a very good working relationship with the SVP and VP of After Sales Service at Rolex-the SVP being a fellow Bulova School graduate. We were both members of the Industry Advisory Board of the AWCI, and my watchmakers group made grants to the Lititz Watch Technicum later, which was run by the same SVP from Rolex.

So lug marks-maybe, but it's a stretch and I don't believe it. Dials-they could come with Tiffany as new from Rolex Switzerland, or delivered plain from which they could be stamped.

I still have a spare Tiffany dial for my two tone blue Submariner . . .

[Tijssan]

Originally Posted by watchteacher

Let me put this to rest. I was the Tiffany Repair Center supervisor during the time when they sold Rolex in the late 80's early to mid 90's, and afterwards after the relationship was terminated.

Rolex supplied watches to Tiffany with the Tiffany name, as well as watches that weren't marked Tiffany. (Some buyers didn't want the Tiffany name, so both were stocked). Rolex supplied spare dials both marked and unmarked Tiffany as spare parts.

Tiffany also owned/still owns a dial press with several sizes of the Tiffany & Co dies. At the time they sold Rolex, they also sold many other Swiss brands, many of whom supplied watches 'on memo'-so we would wait until the watch was sold before we stamped the dial. This could be done while the customer waited. If the watch never sold we could just give it back to the vendor.

As far as lug marking-I wasn't there in the 60's and 70's, but don't recall any of my watchmakers marking ANYTHING other than the inside of the caseback-and I changed the nomenclature and method (using indelible ink, rather than scribing) during my tenure.

I had a very good working relationship with the SVP and VP of After Sales Service at Rolex-the SVP being a fellow Bulova School graduate. We were both members of the Industry Advisory Board of the AWCI, and my watchmakers group made grants to the Lititz Watch Technicum later, which was run by the same SVP from Rolex.

So lug marks-maybe, but it's a stretch and I don't believe it. Dials-they could come with Tiffany as new from Rolex Switzerland, or delivered plain from which they could be stamped.

I still have a spare Tiffany dial for my two tone blue Submariner . . .

Amen!

[MP5]

Pretty huge news here!

[watchteacher]

I've posted before in other threads on Tiffany-lots of misinformation out there about the Tiffany/Rolex relationship. I had a Daytona on order that was never fulfilled . . . but I like my Sub.

[Kiwinz]

Thanks for this great information.

[onkyo]

Originally Posted by Tijssan

Amen!

Another Amen here......

[Kingair]

Thanks for sharing gents !

Mistery solved ;-)

HAGWe

[RC2]

Cool. Thanks

[harry in montreal]

Sticky

[watchteacher]

My VP and I were at the Rolex building for a meeting once, and I was wearing my bubbleback. The Rolex SVP needled my boss, saying 'why isn't your repair manager wearing a Rolex and not a Tiffany watch?'

Walking up 5th Avenue my boss gave me a hard time, and I said 'You're not paying me enough to go buy a Tiffany watch'. He then said 'Put one together out of spare parts, just don't make it better than mine.'

I've had a Tiffany Intaglio model ever since.

[motoikkyu]

I liked this thread, good speculation, back and forth, some new information, very much everything that being part of a community makes pleasant for me. Thanks for posting, all of you!

[ZDaytonawatchlvr]

John, I currently own 3 Rolex Tiffany models, two Datejusts E and X serial number and a Submariner 16610 "L" serial. All 3 have the original Rolex warranty certificate with model#, serial # and Tiffany & Co. on the certificate.
I checked the back of the lugs on all 3 and none appear to have any numbers inscribed on the lugs. The two Datejust Tiffany models have been serviced by Rolex in the last year. I hope this helps your research. Bob

[ZDaytonawatchlvr]

If I had to speculate, I would say that both Rolex and Tiffany know which watches, including the specific serial numbers that are designated as Rolex Tiffany. One of the Rolex certificates I have has a handwritten number on the certificate which I believe is a sale invoice number of the Tiffany transaction.
I hopes this helps the research on the Rolex Tiffany authenticity questions. At this point I think the only way to be sure a Rolex was retailed by Tiffany is to have the original Rolex certificate, or a sales receipt from Tiffany with the model and serial number on the receipt.
Bob

[Beef]

Now I'm curious. I have a Tiffany GMT Master that has pre-2000 service papers from Rolex BH. I can't say that I've really examined the lugs. But I will try to go to the bank and pull it out of the vault and check them. I'll try a photo if anything's there. Sorry for the poor quality stock pics. I took them a few years back. Yes, the hands are replaced, since I occasionally wear the watch. Yes, I do have the original tritium hands. I'll get back witcha.

[Beef]

It appears to have "1501
4"
The 4 is dropped. I'll try to get a picture. The lug is very scratched, so the 4 is not "unobstructed.

[Beef]

OK, so here's the VERY poor quality picture of my lug. The 5 looks like some of the earlier depicted 5's. I also purchased this watch from wannabuyawatch.com in 2005 with about a half a dozen other vintage Rolexes. (Still have receipts.) Now I agree with eveything that watchteacher says above. Absolutely ZERO dispute. He was there, he knows. However, this leaves open a couple of other possibilities. One, Tiffany marked them BEFORE his time. Remember, for years people denied the "Transitional" DRSD with the curved case back until Ed Delgado put that to rest. Two, the my GMT was listed as being from a large collection of Tiffany pieces that wannabuyawatch picked up as a lot. It is possible that those watches were numbered by the collector as an "inventory" number. As watchteacher said, a stretch. But someone marked these watches. Why? Who? Again, I am sorry my picture is so poor.

[springer]

Originally Posted by zeuloa

These are the kind of posts that should be avoided in my opinion. They contribute nothing to the discussion and are a distraction to the main topic of the thread. They are just waste!

Totally agree. His post is a distraction and without substance!!!