PANERAI 2019: The Beginning of a New Scam Era!

[yobxelor]

Originally Posted by erik asher

...but you cross over from informative to inflammatory by making absolute statements that may or may not be true, and by implying that Panerai is actually doing something illegal, unethical, or both.



Let’s take this statement from your original post:

“Nowadays, luxury became synonymous of rip-off! Mass produced items manufactured in poor countries by underpaid workers in unhealthy environments are sold as Luxury items with incredible mark-ups to trusting customers unaware they are being ripped-off. Their golden rule nowadays is: make more money at any cost. Deception is acceptable, as long as profitability is increased.



What do I mean by deception? Making a costumer believe he is paying the real value of an object by giving false information is deception. Pretending the build process is long, complicated and time consuming to justify high premium, and the reality being completly the opposite, is deception.

I am going to give you an example of deception. "CARBOTECH": it sounds high tech! How do they describe it? "Forged Carbon Fiber". Panerai sells their Carbotech watches for a very high premium over stainles steel, so it must be very difficult and complex to manufacture, hence the price difference. “



First, you imply that Panerai watches are being manuafactured under unsavory conditions, which isn’t the case. Second, you state that someone who buys the watch is being scammed or ripped off, in absolute terms. You also state in absolute terms that price is always tied to the length and complexity of the manufacturing process. Well, the truth is that price is tied to many more variables than that. A big part of price is tied to intangibles such as Reaearch & Development, and other costs associated with the watch that may not be directly tied to manufacturing.



While your post has some informational value and the non inflammatory and technical parts of your post give us all something to think about (and I thank you for that), parts of your posts are unsubstantiated which takes away from the really interesting and technical statements. I will also tell you that I would be out of business if I relied on google for my technical research. If you have a specific citation that is reliable and credible regarding the manufacturing of carbotech, please cite it, but my very quick google search proved inconclusive (I do admit that I am not an engineer so I Amy be missing the nuances of some of the descriptions).



I would just try to tone down the inciteful stuff and stick to a measured analysis without drawing conclusions.

Well said


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[yobxelor]

Originally Posted by brandrea

I’m curious how you feel about RM pricing OP

Exactly


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[yobxelor]

Originally Posted by Panerol Forte

You just made my point!





Yes it is!... Google is your friend, use it! In this day and age, there are no excuses for undocumented statements. Especially on a public forum, where you choose to read a thread, and the OP posted a long TECHNICAL post, and a time consuming caliber comparison prepared on photoshop in order to BE CLEAR, and you decide to give your input by making such a statement, knowing that GOOGLE is a click away. If this is how you research your watches, I would love to see your collection.

Some of mine...





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[yobxelor]

Originally Posted by erik asher

...but you cross over from informative to inflammatory by making absolute statements that may or may not be true, and by implying that Panerai is actually doing something illegal, unethical, or both.



Let’s take this statement from your original post:

“Nowadays, luxury became synonymous of rip-off! Mass produced items manufactured in poor countries by underpaid workers in unhealthy environments are sold as Luxury items with incredible mark-ups to trusting customers unaware they are being ripped-off. Their golden rule nowadays is: make more money at any cost. Deception is acceptable, as long as profitability is increased.



What do I mean by deception? Making a costumer believe he is paying the real value of an object by giving false information is deception. Pretending the build process is long, complicated and time consuming to justify high premium, and the reality being completly the opposite, is deception.

I am going to give you an example of deception. "CARBOTECH": it sounds high tech! How do they describe it? "Forged Carbon Fiber". Panerai sells their Carbotech watches for a very high premium over stainles steel, so it must be very difficult and complex to manufacture, hence the price difference. “



First, you imply that Panerai watches are being manuafactured under unsavory conditions, which isn’t the case. Second, you state that someone who buys the watch is being scammed or ripped off, in absolute terms. You also state in absolute terms that price is always tied to the length and complexity of the manufacturing process. Well, the truth is that price is tied to many more variables than that. A big part of price is tied to intangibles such as Reaearch & Development, and other costs associated with the watch that may not be directly tied to manufacturing.



While your post has some informational value and the non inflammatory and technical parts of your post give us all something to think about (and I thank you for that), parts of your posts are unsubstantiated which takes away from the really interesting and technical statements. I will also tell you that I would be out of business if I relied on google for my technical research. If you have a specific citation that is reliable and credible regarding the manufacturing of carbotech, please cite it, but my very quick google search proved inconclusive (I do admit that I am not an engineer so I Amy be missing the nuances of some of the descriptions).



I would just try to tone down the inciteful stuff and stick to a measured analysis without drawing conclusions.

Well said Eric...


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[nick c]

Originally Posted by yobxelor

Some of mine...





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Impressive collection. Well done!

[Nav01L]

In all fairness, one has to admit though that the Panerai Carbotech case is a fair bit prettier than any other forged carbon case in the industry. The soft curves of the material seem so clean in comparison to the jagged pattern of the equivalent Bulgari or the products of some other makers.

Nonetheless, pricing a pedestrian P9010 into the 20k bracket seems odd when you realize that one could have a VC Overseas or an AP RO for that money, both of which are exquisitely finished.

I think in the end the gamble, like for RM and RD, comes down to whether the brand can sell you a membership in a “distinct club/circle” along with a watch like that.

JMP has quite successfully implemented that concept at RD, substantially aided by the general six figure nature of the brand obviously. Whether he can do the same with Panerai remains to be seen.

But if wearing one of those Carbotechs does not turn out to make you instafamous over night, I have my doubts...

In any event, they will have to make very few of these watches and select very carefully who can have them if they want to have a real shot.

Once one of these lands at a high street AD and goes for a discount without a waitlist, the game could be over fairly quickly and we could all go back to enjoying our 7-8k historic models in black and tan, as we have to great effect for so long.

[martinr]

Weird thread. The OP can’t stand it if someone disagrees with him or challenges his opinion and it is just that, an opinion. Then he goes crazy praising and thanking anyone that agrees with him. He has a RG submersible, a Ferrari, and thinks google has the answer to everything. Fabulous.

[Panerol Forte]

Originally Posted by martinr

Didn’t you just buy a gold submersible? Wasn’t that around 22K? The amount of gold in weight isn’t that much so why did you buy it? I like it. You could say the same thing about it as you’re saying about the carbotech models. So buying one of the new models isn’t really a rip off or a scam, just don’t buy if you don’t like them.

Originally Posted by Panerol Forte

You really missed the point, didn't you? Of course you pay a premium for luxury item, you pay more than the value of the raw material, but when you buy a gold watch, you know that you are paying the extra for precious metal. But paying a huge premium for a cheap material that is presented as precious, that's when you get scammed. FYI, there is 5000$ worth of gold in my watch, so it is normal for it to be more expensive than a Stainless Steel. But, selling a watch whose case cost less than a Stainless Steel for double the price, that's a SCAM. I wish you to be one of the lucky 33.

Last time I answer such a post.

Originally Posted by martinr

I don’t think I missed the point at all. You claim carbotech is cheap to produce but don’t present any evidence to back up that claim. And, saying “huge premium” is relative. You seem annoyed because you don’t like how someone else might feel ok about paying a high price for something they like and want. Why would you care what someone else buys if you don’t want one in the first place. Do you like the carbotech models but think they’re too expensive or are you just looking out for the rest of us who might get scammed. Maybe you won’t answer but I want to know if you like the new carbotech models.

Originally Posted by martinr

Weird thread. The OP can’t stand it if someone disagrees with him or challenges his opinion and it is just that, an opinion. Then he goes crazy praising and thanking anyone that agrees with him. He has a RG submersible, a Ferrari, and thinks google has the answer to everything. Fabulous.

You're a stubbern guy, aren't you? You just couldn't stand being ignored, and you come back for more. I don't see any reason for you to keep coming back to this thread as it is obvious that you don't like it, nore the OP. Ok... You have my attention!

In your first post, you weren't giving an opinion, you were being rude and aggresive. I acted civil and answered you, but told I wouldn't do it again.

Your second post, I'll be honest with you, I didn't read it.

In your third post, you are bluntly attacking me. What is it that triggered your wrath? The fact that I ignored you instead of praising you? If it's my praises that you want, stop acting like a troll, behave like a gentlman, and I will praise you. Promise!

P.S.: Google doesn't answer questions, it's just a search engine.

[Panerol Forte]

Originally Posted by yobxelor

Some of mine...





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Nice collection.. Enjoy in good health

[Panerol Forte]

It's been a tad over 48 hours since I posted this thread. It was interesting to see the various reactions it generated. Of course, whatever you post on a forum, you cannot expect to please everybody, but the funny thing is that even though the subject of the thread was very clear in my opening post:

"I would like to hear your opinions in this thread after the unveiling of the new Submersible line-up."

"Here is mine:" And I started the thread by posting my opinion.

Most of the people that posted on this thread were giving their opinion about my opinion instead of giving, like stated in my opening post, their opinion about the unveiling of the Submersible line-up. And the most astounding was that the people who were judging my opinions got irritated when I defended them. Not only I was flamed, which is acceptable to a certain extend, I was bluntly attacked by a forum member with some unsolved issues. It's a watch forum, for god's sake! it's a place where you're supposed to come to relax and share your passion with other enthusiasts... not get emotional if someone told you that the watch made of unobtainium you were fantasising about is not worth the gazillion dollars price tag. To those people I say, spare your nervous system the extra stress and avoid my future threads. To the rest, I say that I will be pleased to start a new thread that they will hopfully enjoy.

The good thing about this thread is that, even though I am new to this forum, I already know some the members that are on the same wavelength as me, and the ones to avoid.

[bonovox]

Panerai had a killer party that slowed in recent years. Epic pieces, epic GTG's, Epic people and that party continues to those that own those pieces, attended those GTG's and know and stay in touch with one another. Panerai remains a unique brand with a special following.

For me, new Panerai prices are getting to a place I can't party on, but I don't judge their business choices. I value the ones I own and will continue to enjoy them. Rock on Panerai!

[simbal]

Panerai lost me a while back and I have not missed them much either! Good points OP!

[martinr]

You asked for opinions regarding deception and a Panerai ripoff. That’s what you got. Panerai isn’t being deceptive and isn’t ripping off people. They ask a price and if you choose not to buy because you think the price is too high that’s up to you. If someone gave you a carbotech model for free would you wear it? Like I said earlier this is a weird thread. Also, for someone that says its a watch forum and not a place to get emotional it seems to me you’re the one getting a little worked up over the responses you don’t agree with. My nervous system isn’t getting any extra stress either, in fact it’s not stressed at all by this thread.

[Panerol Forte]

Originally Posted by martinr

You asked for opinions regarding deception and a Panerai ripoff. That’s what you got. Panerai isn’t being deceptive and isn’t ripping off people. They ask a price and if you choose not to buy because you think the price is too high that’s up to you. If someone gave you a carbotech model for free would you wear it? Like I said earlier this is a weird thread. Also, for someone that says its a watch forum and not a place to get emotional it seems to me you’re the one getting a little worked up over the responses you don’t agree with. My nervous system isn’t getting any extra stress either, in fact it’s not stressed at all by this thread.

I am sure that you are a party crasher that can't take a hint when he is not welcome anymore. Just go crash another thread and stop polluting mine.
Do not address me here or any where else, or I will have to report you.

[martinr]

I decide when and where I post. My posts in the thread you started seem to irritate you but they were about the subject you brought up. None were personal attacks or anything like that. Party crasher is an example of a personal attack. You said I’m stubborn and can’t stand to be ignored. Another personal attack. And you said I was rude and aggressive which is another personal attack. I still like your RG submersible with $5000 worth of gold.

[Lol-x]

Lets keep this thread nice and respectful, or I might have to take out the "ban" button, and then someone will really be unhappy.

OK, don't say you weren't warned....

[carlhaluss]

The new 2019 Panerai model lineup appears to be very little more than Submersible models. Now, I am not an expert by any stretch of the imagination, about the production of "Carbotech". I do know, however, that Breitling has their version called "Breitlight". Their most expensive model with this substance is $9500CAD or just over $7000USD. I noticed also that they had a quartz Colt model at my AD in Breitlight for $2500CAD, or about $1900USD. I really don't know why the Breitling material would be any inferior to the Panerai.

My personal feeling is that the Panerai newest releases, whether Carbotech or not are priced way to high. But that is for me. I also think that the IWC Big Pilot is way overpriced at $16,500CAD. However, that really is for each individual to decide for themselves. But when a Carbotech model costs far more than a solid gold model, then I really start to wonder.

I will buy not what is cheapest, but what I think is good value for the money. Whether it's a high end gold piece or a less expensive stainless steel model. I have been quite happy, up until now, to pay MSRP for the Panerai models which I currently own. However, with the current offerings by Panerai, it will be a long time, if ever, that I buy another Panerai.

Cheers,
Carl

[Saoirse32]

Is this a scam? Can’t cost too much to manufacture that green dial...LOL





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[yobxelor]

I’ll chime in a little.

This is the luxury segment we are talking about. Saying forged carbon is cheap and should not cost more than gold in this segment is irrelevant. To win the gold is better than carbon argument, one should go to the commodities market. You will win everyday.

How luxury sells is R&D, design, exclusivity, brand equity and most of all, that human emotional connection. That has been the premise of the luxury market for the longest time. Same with Rolex, their gold pcs are blatantly overpriced too.

If one feels that the particular model is not worth the price the maker is asking for, then move on. No need to call the brand a scam.

I think the title of this thread is rather misplaced and controversial from someone who bought his first Pam last month (Dec 2018). By the OP’s analogy, AP, RM, RD, Hublot, Breitling and any other luxury brands charging exorbitant prices for a carbon pc is scamming consumers.




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[red1108nyc]

Panerai lost me a while back and it is probably due to my smaller wrist. Still, these tweak and re-tweak of same design characteristics in different colors or metal is just getting awful for me at least. I much prefer the old school 232, 190, 360 or 25.. super cool pieces and no scams :-)

[yobxelor]

Originally Posted by red1108nyc

Panerai lost me a while back and it is probably due to my smaller wrist. Still, these tweak and re-tweak of same design characteristics in different colors or metal is just getting awful for me at least. I much prefer the old school 232, 190, 360 or 25.. super cool pieces and no scams :-)

No scams now too. Back then when 232 came out ppl were crying foul abt a 2 hand steel watch with Unitas movt asking for exorbitant prices. The 360 created an even bigger stir with “hardcore” ristis leaving bec they were not being allocated the watch.

I call this evolution. Not scam.

Today, Panerai is in a nice place where tradition and high-tech co-exist. They still do produce very nice vintage inspired pcs side by side their high tech pcs. Look at last year’s 720, 721, 911, or the year before’s 662, 663, 673, etc.


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[erik asher]

Originally Posted by yobxelor

No scams now too. Back then when 232 came out ppl were crying foul abt a 2 hand steel watch with Unitas movt asking for exorbitant prices. The 360 created an even bigger stir with “hardcore” ristis leaving bec they were not being allocated the watch.

I call this evolution. Not scam.

Today, Panerai is in a nice place where tradition and high-tech co-exist. They still do produce very nice vintage inspired pcs side by side their high tech pcs. Look at last year’s 720, 721, 911, or the year before’s 662, 663, 673, etc.


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This and your last post are spot on mate...I love when someone with very little brand experience makes bold proclamations as if for fact.

[synequano]

I won't say Panerai as a scam (it's pretty much already proven on Pam 318 brooklyn bridge case anyways)

The way I see it,pam is just a company that tries to tap into high tech materials to create different piece that might appeal to a different market segment and ultimately bring more $$$ to the company,personally I find their price to be too high for the piece they offer and the brand cache but then people do buy them,good for them

I'm not a big submersible fan so I found nothing interesting for me at this year's SIHH so I simply won't buy anything new from them,ultimately we choose with our hard earned $$$ whether to buy anything from them or not,don't like what they made,go buy something else,simple as that...

[Sublovin]

Originally Posted by yobxelor

I call this evolution. Not scam.

Today, Panerai is in a nice place where tradition and high-tech co-exist. They still do produce very nice vintage inspired pcs side by side their high tech pcs. Look at last year’s 720, 721, 911, or the year before’s 662, 663, 673, etc.


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I am a fan. I own several and still like the old stuff, but saying Panerai is in a nice place is factually incorrect. They went from a brand that AD could not keep in stock, to a brand that is STEEPLY discounted by dealers, grey market and used market. My AD keeps 3 large cases of Panerai in the vault, out of view.
They don’t do this because they are saving them for good clients, it’s because they don’t want the showcase to look like a stack of cereal boxes.
Go look at threads from several years ago where people would literally get laughed at when asking about any discount. Now, you pretty much can get 30% walking through the door!
“Special Edition” pieces sit. The 721, which is a great watch, can be had for a DISCOUNT...crazy!
These SE pieces used to never hit the showcase, now they are immediately discounted and they still sit....
Not a nice place.

[brandrea]

I got scammed big time

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[nick c]

Here is 5218-201/A, just before the big Scammers, richemont group took over LOL


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[Sublovin]

^^some beautiful dials there

[chemistman]

Scam is probably too strong if a word , but on face value I agree with OP that Panerai does not provide value for money any longer.

Judging by this year's release there won't be any interest from me personally. However if chances come by for some nice older models at a discount , then who knows. Look at how much 232 or fiddy has gone down. Good time to pick them up which would never have happened 6-7 years ago

They still do make some very nice pieces occasionally. No regrets on the 690 at all.

[eonflux]

Had a 44mm AP ROO forged carbon. Loved it.
Maybe it cost less to produce than a steel 44mm, but didn't matter to me.
I liked it more than any of the other 44mm ROOs.

Value is subjective.
Maybe Panerai is being greedy with Carbotech.
Maybe R&D cost more than we know.
But we can all choose to buy or not buy based on what's desirable/valuable to each of us.

[yachty 1]

At the end of the day the market will dictate if they are priced to high or not, only time will tell. If they are deeply discounted and stay on the shelf we have our answer.