32xx movement problem poll and data thread

[CharlesN]

I have exported the data gleaned by the Witschi and have added it below.

The Weishi just gives the simple data of +/- Rate, Beat Error and Amplitude.

You then have to manually copy that data to a spreadsheet or similar to do calculations and see where any error may lie. (That is a bit of a pain in the rear sometimes.)

The Witschi just does all the hard work for you and you can export the data as shown below.

These are the standard 6 pages of data (From monitoring my watch this morning) …..








There is an amazing amount of data in there. It isn’t hard to understand it once you begin to learn just a little.

It’s also a lot of fun taking the readings and learning how much of a marvel these little addictive watches are.

Now I have given you all the perfect reason to go out straight away or go online to Amazon etc. to go and order yourselves a timing device.



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[CharlesN]

I have been monitoring my watch on an iPhone app for the last month

The App is called WatchTracker. It is very simple to use and takes just 10 seconds per day.

With the help of my TimeGrapher I have managed to get my watch to stick to pretty good timekeeping and it’s getting even better every day now.

The TimeGrapher taught me what differences there are with leaving my watch in one of the 5 positions overnight apart from other useful things.

Using a TimeGrapher and WatchTracker together makes total sence if you always want to strive for perfection. (I freely admit I am one of those (AKA a WIS).

From the graph below you can see that I am now on a course to get perfect timekeeping in about a week

I have learnt to leave my watch Dial Down overnight every night.

I started recording data with this app on 30 April and a month later (Today is 31 May) I am a total of -5.9 seconds over the entire month
That’s an average of -0.19 spd

That’s as good as it comes IMHO

Who needs a quartz, Battery driven watch when a Rolex automatic watch has Precision, Accuracy and timekeeping as good as this ?






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[saxo3]

Originally Posted by HiBoost

My Sub41 is around 192 degrees after 24 hours. From all the expert opinions, this seems to be low (and below the spec of 200 degrees), but perhaps not as dramatically low as I had thought. I contacted RSC in the USA and they said not to send mine in based on amplitude alone because the timekeeping itself has been very good. I am waiting to see if it changes over time...

Saxo, CharlesN and others... great work keeping the thread progressing forward!

Originally Posted by saxo3

HiBoost, a warm welcome back here!

You own a very interesting new Submariner 126613LB (3235) bought in January 2021.

Can you please update the data you presented here (24.01.2021) with a set of new timegrapher measurements?

Maybe not 'only' after full winding plus 24 hours later but also along the entire power reserve?

Such PR tests in DU position (or other positions too) in order to compare with several studies in this thread.

The more data points the better, as we all know and agree ...

HiBoost,
Your watch still is a very interesting case.
Can you please do a new set of measurements and share the results with us?
I recall the data you shared in January 2021:

-------------------
Brand new 126613LB Sub, worn on and off for 2 weeks.
Lift angle set to 53 degrees, Weishi 1000, 4 second period.
Watch allowed to settle for 2 minutes after changing positions.
Then monitored for another 3 minutes.

Full wind (75 winds)
DU: +2 to +3 s/d, 256-262 deg
CU: -3 to -6 s/d, 208-218 deg
DD: +2 to +4 s/d, 250-257 deg
CD: 0 to -2 s/d, 216-224 deg

For most of the full wind tests across all positions the beat error was 0.2ms.

24 hours later (not worn or moved)
DU: +1 to +3 s/d, 231-237 deg
CU: -5 to -9 s/d, 185-197 deg
DD: +1 to +4 s/d, 222-226 deg
CD: 0 to -9 s/d, 188-195 deg

For most of the 24 hour tests across all positions the beat error was 0.0ms.
-------------------

[saxo3]

[MikeyV]

I think Charlie is waiting for me?

I've been chatting with Saxo, who has prepared some charts from the daily timing check that I've done on my watch since before January 2019.

Here is some text to go along with the charts that Saxo will post shortly.
Just some notes really, to describe what's happening and when.

Maybe now is a good time to tell everyone, buried here in this thread, that my watch has miraculously repaired itself, and (in the span of two days or so) has gone back to running nearly perfect. I can keep it spot on again by resting it face up or crown up at night, like when it was new, and like right after Rolex "repaired" it.

See the end of my description for the resurrection. This is no BS, I have no reason to make these things up.

Thanks to Saxo for taking the time to prepare these graphs from my data, and for keeping this thread going.

WATCH: 2018 (purchased) DJ41 TT - Champagne- Made before the little crown was added at 6 o'clock.
WEARING HABIT: Worn all day from 7 am until 9 pm. Worn every day of the week regularly.
SELF WINDING: I'm pretty active, walk a few miles a day. Power reserve test from only wearing (no winding) lasted over 70 hours.
MEASURING TECHNIQUE: Set watch to atomic clock, check every (atomic clock) morning at about 8 am and record the loss or gain.
RESETTING: Reset watch after it loses one or two minutes. Eventually started setting one minute fast and reset when one minute slow.

2018 - JUN - Watch is purchased from AD.
2018 - JUN to SEPT - Watch runs perfectly, can keep spot on with positional resting at night.
2018 - OCT to DEC - Watch starts to run slow, can't get it back to zero by resting face-up every night.

note: I had records of this time period, but lost them.

2019 - JAN - Begin Excel time keeping spreadsheet. Watch running at -4 spd first week month, and -7.5 spd by the end of the month.
2019 - FEB to MAY - Watch continues to run slow, between -5 and -6 spd. Amplitude check in MAY showed 227 deg. face up, full wind.
2019 - JUN - Watch sent to Rolex Dallas - complaints of slow running and low amplitude.

note: All this time of running slow, watch was rested Face Up always.

2019 - JUL - Watch returned to me (4 weeks), running now at +1.5 spd, when rested crown up at night.
2019 - AUG to NOV - Watch continues to run spot on with positional resting at night.
2019 - DEC - Started to show signs of slowing again, can not maintain time with positional resting. Ran at -3.5 spd in December.

2020 - JAN - Watch continues to run slow, now losing over 4 spd this month.
2020 - FEB to OCT - Watch running real slow, losing over 5 or 6 spd. This is with positional resting (face up).
2020 - NOV to DEC - Running even slower, losing over 6 to 7 seconds per day now, still resting face up at night.

note: If the watch was rested crown up or down, it might lose 10 to 15 seconds per day. Big losses unless face up at night.

2021 - JAN to MAR - Running even slower, losing 7-8 (near 9) seconds per day, while rested face up at night.

Here's where the watch fixed itself.

2021 - MAR 17 - Reset the watch. It had sat unused for the day before - ( which is rare)
2021 - MAR 18 - Lost 4 seconds
2021 - MAR 19 - Lost only two seconds.
2021 - MAR 20 - Lost only two seconds again.
2021 - MAR 21 - Lost only half second.
2021 - MAR 21 - Lost only half second again.
2021 - MAR 22 - Lost or gained no time.
2021 - MAR 23 - Lost or gained no time.
2021 - MAR 24 - Lost one second only.
2021 - MAR 25 - Lost or gained no time.

note: Started resting crown up to try to get it to loose the one minute fast I had set it. Lost about a second each day rested crown up at night.

2021 - APR to JUN - continues to run perfect, staying near spot on with positional resting at night, sometimes face up, sometimes crown up.

[saxo3]

Here are the graphs for Mike's watch:

Datejust 41, Ref. 12633, caliber 3235
Purchase date: June 2018

Accumulated daily deviation, graphs
(A) Year 2019
(B) Year 2020
(C) Year 2021

Weighted monthly deviation, graph
(D) Year 2019 to 2021

[saxo3]

Originally Posted by MikeyV

I think Charlie is waiting for me?

I've been chatting with Saxo, who has prepared some charts from the daily timing check that I've done on my watch since before January 2019.

Mike,

CHAPEAU.
You have done a fantastic and very systematic study!

767 individual and recorded measurements since 1st January 2019.

2019: 282
2020: 340
2021: 145 (until 03 June)
------------
SUM: 767

Maybe you can share your thoughts what might have triggered the changes observed around mid March and since beginning of May 2021?

[MikeyV]

Saxo,
Thanks for posting these charts. It's really amazing to see it presented this way.

Obviously I've thought long and hard about this problem. I did nothing out of the ordinary when this change happened. To make it even more bizarre, it fixed itself over the course of only a few days.

I'm an engineer by trade, and one thing I know is that it didn't wear out, and then wear "back in". That can't be the case. Like, say, the seconds pinion wear that is talked about.

The only thing that makes any possible sense is oil migration.

One possible correlation that I have noticed is this: Any time would I let the watch stop (usually every few months or so) and then rewound it, it would always run slower than before I let it stop. Mostly the first few days or so after winding would be the slowest, then it would ease faster by a few seconds, but still remain in the -4 to -8 spd range. Last time I let it stop was in October of 2020. So it has run continuously for more and six months.

Maybe those two things have something to do with one another. Maybe not.
Maybe letting it run for so long without stopping has moved some oil somewhere else?
Maybe that drag is gone?

One other thing I can mention is that it was consistently off day by day. By that I mean it never would lose 4 seconds one day, and then 8 the next, it would be -4, -4, -5, -5, -3.5, etc. It was running very precisely 5 seconds slow, or whatever the average number was at the time.

I think you can see that in the data points in the charts.

It's puzzling, for sure.

[EEpro]

Originally Posted by MikeyV

Saxo,
Thanks for posting these charts. It's really amazing to see it presented this way.

Obviously I've thought long and hard about this problem. I did nothing out of the ordinary when this change happened. To make it even more bizarre, it fixed itself over the course of only a few days.

I'm an engineer by trade, and one thing I know is that it didn't wear out, and then wear "back in". That can't be the case. Like, say, the seconds pinion wear that is talked about.

The only thing that makes any possible sense is oil migration.

One possible correlation that I have noticed is this: Any time would I let the watch stop (usually every few months or so) and then rewound it, it would always run slower than before I let it stop. Mostly the first few days or so after winding would be the slowest, then it would ease faster by a few seconds, but still remain in the -4 to -8 spd range. Last time I let it stop was in October of 2020. So it has run continuously for more and six months.

Maybe those two things have something to do with one another. Maybe not.
Maybe letting it run for so long without stopping has moved some oil somewhere else?
Maybe that drag is gone?

One other thing I can mention is that it was consistently off day by day. By that I mean it never would lose 4 seconds one day, and then 8 the next, it would be -4, -4, -5, -5, -3.5, etc. It was running very precisely 5 seconds slow, or whatever the average number was at the time.

I think you can see that in the data points in the charts.

It's puzzling, for sure.

My 2019 DJ41 did this. I also attributed it to migration of the lube. I was panned for stating that after 3 days on the winder the watch was keeping time again.

[MikeyV]

Has it remained cured? How long has this been going on?

Mine was healed in March, still working perfectly.

Glad there are others. Maybe folks on the fence about sending theirs in will hold off a bit.

I remember Bas saying they "drench" some parts in oil (pallete fork and seconds wheel pinion?) for the 3235 movement, which was apparently not the case on the 3135.

[EEpro]

Originally Posted by MikeyV

Has it remained cured? How long has this been going on?

Mine was healed in March, still working perfectly.

Glad there are others. Maybe folks on the fence about sending theirs in will hold off a bit.

I remember Bas saying they "drench" some parts in oil (pallete fork and seconds wheel pinion?) for the 3235 movement, which was apparently not the case on the 3135.

Kept running fine for a few months and then I traded it "up" for a white Daytona.

[MikeyV]

Smart guy! ;)

[CharlesN]

Originally Posted by MikeyV

I think Charlie is waiting for me?

Charlie is delighted with your post (My name is Charles)

Now to be a little more serious ....

Thanks for your VERY full detailed report. EXCELLENT.

I have a couple of questions.

In June 2019 Did you take or send your watch DIRECT to the RSC in Dallas ? or did it go via an AD?

When the watch was gone for the month (June/July 2019) do you know, for sure, what was done.

I suspect, as it was only 4 weeks, it was a regulation not a full service which usually takes much longer even if the watch is under warranty and gets priority treatment.

I think it was in the earlier part of 2019 the Rolex at HQ in Geneva, Switzerland changed some of the lubrication and possibly a pinion or bearing or two. If that was the case Rolex USA and the USA RSC might well not have known about this and the so-called problem that was beginning to show itself more often.

Perhaps I should point out that my comments are purely MY suspicions and not a watchmakers secret knowledge.

Unfortunately I do think however the sudden “Fixing” of your watch is not going to last.

Can I also ask about hand winding ....... Are you hand winding your watch or letting the automatic movement do its stuff ? Could the fault have changed if you do NOT hand wind just allow your daily movement to suffice.

I think your watch needs a full service done at the RSC but perhaps not the Dallas RSC. Is the SF one still open ? Maybe its part of Schrieve (Spelling ??) now ?

And Saxo3 WOWEE !!!!! Yet again those graphs make everything so much clearer.

[Dennisoul]

126334 on timegrapher

Just got a timegrapher…how do these results compare with other 126334….5 different positions…. Bought new from AD in August 2017 75 winds before I started

[saxo3]

Welcome Andy!

As I wrote already, the 3235 has a lift angle of 53 degrees, not 52.

It would be good if you can follow the following procedure with your timegrapher:

(1) Full caliber winding.
(2) Place watch in DU position onto the microphone.
(3) Wait 15 minutes to stabilize, then measure.
(4) Change position to 6U, wait 3 min, then measure.
(5) Continue with 9U, 3U, DD.
(6) Compile your results in a simple table.
(7) Use the higher sensitivity mode (99.9 instead of 999) of your Weishi 1900.
(8) If you mount the watch differently (crown close to the microphone) then you have a better transmission of movement sound to the microphone.

I suggest you read the entire thread, ok it's very long; there is already a lot of data and useful information as well as some comparisons between watches.

If you own more 32xx or 31xx watches, please go ahead and also post their results here.

[CharlesN]

Hi Andy,Great to see you here.

just to add to saxo3's comments ... I notce you have the crown of your watch against the "Moving Spring" side of the holder.

It should be the other way around so the crown touches the "Fixed" end which is connected directly to the internal microphone.

You may also find it easier (I did) to have the clasp closed. I found it smagged sometimes whilst changing angles.

[Dennisoul]

Originally Posted by saxo3

Welcome Andy!

As I wrote already, the 3235 has a lift angle of 53 degrees, not 52.

It would be good if you can follow the following procedure with your timegrapher:

(1) Full caliber winding.
(2) Place watch in DU position onto the microphone.
(3) Wait 15 minutes to stabilize, then measure.
(4) Change position to 6U, wait 3 min, then measure.
(5) Continue with 9U, 3U, DD.
(6) Compile your results in a simple table.
(7) Use the higher sensitivity mode (99.9 instead of 999) of your Weishi 1900.
(8) If you mount the watch differently (crown close to the microphone) then you have a better transmission of movement sound to the microphone.

I suggest you read the entire thread, ok it's very long; there is already a lot of data and useful information as well as some comparisons between watches.

If you own more 32xx or 31xx watches, please go ahead and also post their results here.

Brilliant thank you…I’ll post the results when I’ve did the tests


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[Dennisoul]

Originally Posted by CharlesN

Hi Andy,Great to see you here.

just to add to saxo3's comments ... I notce you have the crown of your watch against the "Moving Spring" side of the holder.

It should be the other way around so the crown touches the "Fixed" end which is connected directly to the internal microphone.

You may also find it easier (I did) to have the clasp closed. I found it smagged sometimes whilst changing angles.

Fab thank you…will post my results…and give the whole thread a read


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[thenewrick]

I used an extremely low tech/real world approach to precision.

I just checked my watch to my computer's clock at about the same time each day and wrote down in an Excel spreadsheet what the + or - was.

I'd rest the watch in a few different positions and keep track of them in the same way.

I found very consistent results after a month of collecting the data.

It gains about 1 second a day dial up, and loses 1 second a day crown up.

Now I use those 2 resting methods each night when I take it off depending on it's current accuracy.

It keeps the watch within +1/-1 second from accurate consistently.

Last time I set the watch was 3-4 weeks ago after it ran out of power and it's +.5 seconds fast as of right now and that's generally where it sits.

My advice would be to skip the machines and just take real world data samples. Find out how your individual watch reacts to resting position. See if you can correct inaccuracy with resting position. If you can't, it probably needs a service.

[saxo3]

Originally Posted by thenewrick

I used an extremely low tech/real world approach to precision.

I just checked my watch to my computer's clock at about the same time each day and wrote down in an Excel spreadsheet what the + or - was.

I'd rest the watch in a few different positions and keep track of them in the same way.

I found very consistent results after a month of collecting the data.

It gains about 1 second a day dial up, and loses 1 second a day crown up.

Now I use those 2 resting methods each night when I take it off depending on it's current accuracy.

It keeps the watch within +1/-1 second from accurate consistently.

Last time I set the watch was 3-4 weeks ago after it ran out of power and it's +.5 seconds fast as of right now and that's generally where it sits.

My advice would be to skip the machines and just take real world data samples. Find out how your individual watch reacts to resting position. See if you can correct inaccuracy with resting position. If you can't, it probably needs a service.

Perfect approach.
The WatchTracker App is also very good.

You can "skip the machines", of course, but then you have no idea about the caliber amplitudes, which is crucial, IMHO. Your choice.

"Real world data" is a question of "real world" definition.

What watch you are measuring?
From what you report it runs PERFECT and you don't need a timegrapher.

[thenewrick]

So if your watch is keeping great time and a machine says it has low amplitude you're going to... sell it? Service it? What's the benefit of having a machine even tell you? It's much more likely the machine is wrong, you'd service a perfectly good watch and it could come back running worse than before if it were already keeping good time and you're out $ and time.

OP41 with the 3230

[saxo3]

Keeping great time and very low movement amplitudes does not go together.

[thenewrick]

My point is you don't need a machine to tell you if your watch is precise. Real world data is better and free!

[EEpro]

Originally Posted by thenewrick

My point is you don't need a machine to tell you if your watch is precise. Real world data is better and free!

These guys are looking for any anomaly in timekeeping vs amplitude vs power reserve that might be an indicator of the 32xx issues to come.

Nobody needs a timegrapher to know if their watch is accurate, as you point out.

[saxo3]

Originally Posted by thenewrick

My point is you don't need a machine to tell you if your watch is precise.

You are right, you mean accurate.

Nobody wants to convince you (or anybody else) to use a timegrapher!

Nice that your 3130 is running perfect

[saxo3]

Originally Posted by EEpro

These guys are looking for any anomaly in timekeeping vs amplitude vs power reserve that might be an indicator of the 32xx issues to come.

Nobody needs a timegrapher to know if their watch is accurate, as you point out.

Not really Brad, some of "These guys are NOT looking for any anomaly" but try to better understand (at least me) why 2 or 3 of their new 32xx watches run like s..t and how these 3235 and 3285 compare e.g. with the 31xx movements. The key footprint is a low amplitude in H and V caliber positions, a well proven fact.

[EEpro]

Originally Posted by saxo3

No, some of "These guys are NOT looking for any anomaly" but try to better understand why 2 or 3 of their new 32xx watches run like s..t and how these 3235 and 3285 compare e.g. with the 31xx movements. The key footprint is a low amplitude in H and V caliber positions, a well proven fact.

That's literally exactly what I'm talking about. I don't see any distinction, sorry.

[saxo3]

Originally Posted by EEpro

That's literally exactly what I'm talking about. I don't see any distinction, sorry.

Great, wrong understanding of a non-native speaker, mea culpa Brad!

[thenewrick]

I wonder if the ones that are running poorly were damaged either by a previous owner or magnetism/shock.

I've heard rumors the early 32xx were slightly different than the current ones and maybe if they're sent in for service now they're given newer parts.

I suspect the newest generation of movements do take some time to perfect the manufacturing process and that little hiccups occur and rather than perform recalls they just fix them at regular service intervals.

Very thankful mine hasn't had any issues. My Tissot Gentleman Powermatic 80 prior to this kept perfect time also. Very impressive movement from Tissot.

[MikeyV]

Originally Posted by CharlesN

Charlie is delighted with your post (My name is Charles)

Now to be a little more serious ....

Thanks for your VERY full detailed report. EXCELLENT.

I have a couple of questions.

In June 2019 Did you take or send your watch DIRECT to the RSC in Dallas ? or did it go via an AD?

When the watch was gone for the month (June/July 2019) do you know, for sure, what was done.

I suspect, as it was only 4 weeks, it was a regulation not a full service which usually takes much longer even if the watch is under warranty and gets priority treatment.

I think it was in the earlier part of 2019 the Rolex at HQ in Geneva, Switzerland changed some of the lubrication and possibly a pinion or bearing or two. If that was the case Rolex USA and the USA RSC might well not have known about this and the so-called problem that was beginning to show itself more often.

Perhaps I should point out that my comments are purely MY suspicions and not a watchmakers secret knowledge.

Unfortunately I do think however the sudden “Fixing” of your watch is not going to last.

Can I also ask about hand winding ....... Are you hand winding your watch or letting the automatic movement do its stuff ? Could the fault have changed if you do NOT hand wind just allow your daily movement to suffice.

I think your watch needs a full service done at the RSC but perhaps not the Dallas RSC. Is the SF one still open ? Maybe its part of Schrieve (Spelling ??) now ?

And Saxo3 WOWEE !!!!! Yet again those graphs make everything so much clearer.

Let me see if I can answer your questions.
-The watch was sent to Dallas thru the AD.
-The receipt said full service was performed.
-I never hand wind it except for when it has stopped. I experimented with adding some winding, etc, but that always made it run slower. So it's only automatically wound. Test of power reserve from auto winding only was over 70 hours, tested at least 3 or 4 times.

FWIW I tried everything, systematically. Always ran slow.

And, IMO, there's no way that one RSC us doing anything different than any other, parts or procedure-wise. And in the US, the only two potions for RSC are Dallas and NYC.

Cheers,
Mike