Pretty sure I'm being scammed.

[mastermixer]

Thanks for your post, I agree with you that they should have to relinquish the info. I will give them another call and try and get it. I don't understand why I am paying ebay a fee when they basically do nothing. The situation is no different then If I would have just taken the credit card from the buyer directly except I would actually be in a better situation because I would have recourse because I would know the credit card company.

Originally Posted by Saundo

Guys, as a practising lawyer (albeit an Australian one and not expert in consumer credit or merchant law) I have read this thread with a growing sense of incredulity. Hence I've decided to do some digging on the law because you need to know what your rights are if you want to take on PP and the CC company.

When you sign up to Paypal you enter into the Paypal User Agreement (PUA). You should all read it because it is the primary source of your rights and obligations when using Paypal. It's very lite re rights and heavy re obligations. In a nutshell PP is merely a clearing house between you and the buyer/you and the seller. As such it rarely owes you money but it can certainly take it out if your account in a whole host of circumstances. Disputes relevant to your PP account are dealt with under the The Seller and Buyer protection policies. Sounds like you initially won this, hence PP would be notionally obliged to release the funds or credit your account if it had previously refunded them to the Buyer. So far so good, and this seems to be what initially happened.

Now the real story starts. Under the PUA, when you nominate to be a Seller you automatically agree to accept payments funded from credit cards. You also automatically become bound by a Credit Entity Agreement with the various CC companies. You nominate PP to receive and disburse funds for you and deal with the CC company but the primary contractual relationship for these payments is between you and the CC company. This contract is effectively separate to and sits above the PUA. PP is a very interested party but that's it.

So, if a Buyer doesn't pay, then PP ON YOUR BEHALF seeks the money from the CC company. If a Buyer disputes a transaction via a chargeback process with its credit card company, the CC company (or more accurately, the bank that has issued the card) will take the money back from you via the account which PP MAINTAINS ON YOUR BEHALF. The PUA also provides for PP to do so. But in both cases you have no real rights against PP (other than, I assume, a right of reasonable administration by PP).

The CEA directly or more likely the Card Association Rules to which you are deemed to be bound by will set out the chargeback process and appeal rights. Most provide for a two stage review process, finally determined by the CC company. However I think you'll find there are further external arbitration rights under the Card Association Rules if you are dissatisfied with the CC company's decision.

Again, PP will act on your behalf during the two stage process. From what I can tell, your rights under the various CEAs with the different CC companies can be subtly different. What I can't tell, and what I struggle to accept, is that PP has any rights to withhold information from you that is related to the chargeback dispute. The dispute occurs under a contract to which you and the CC company are the contracting parties, not PP. PP is acting in your behalf, not their own etc etc. I can't see any confidentiality issues in PP providing you details of your own dispute (personal details about the card holder aside).

To use a phrase which may not translate into Ameriglish: PP is most likely having a lend of you.

At the very least I'd ask PP to provide you with all correspondence they've had with the CC company/issuing bank and detail what stage the chargeback process is at and what your rights are under the relevant CEA and Card Association Rules. You can then contact the CC company and seek to get engaged in the process directly. If PP says no, ask why and ask them to produce a letter from their in house counsel clearly stating the legal basis on which they are refusing to name names and provide details.

Cost will be an issue you'll have to address at some point, particularly if you need/want to engage an attorney. However you can still push this along on your own, remembering you should never underestimate the laxative effect of a bit of process knowledge when dealing with quasi bureaucratic blockages. If you sound like you know what you're talking about they will assume you do.

This is when a US attorney should weigh in (there must be at least one lurking on this forum somewhere judging by the hourly charge out rates we are regularly invoiced when engaging US counsel) to correct or supplement the above.

Looking forward to reading about a positive resolution.

[Welshwatchman]

The buyer likely thought that she was on to a sure fire thing.

It's up to you whether you wish to get on with it and sue her. She's likely either assumed you'd not or just thought that she could hide behind the CC company.

[007Sub]

any updates?

[alanbass]

I'm really sorry to hear this. Two years ago I sold my sons two month old practically brand new play station for him on ebay to a seller with 22 reviews. The buyer complained that the until didn't work, opened a case and sent back the unit. I received a completely different unit that was several years old and not functioning. A soon as the fedex return hit my front door the money was released to this crook. I complained for several weeks to both paypal and ebay without any results. I passed the money along to my kid however I was out over $200.

[007Sub]

Originally Posted by alanbass

I'm really sorry to hear this. Two years ago I sold my sons two month old practically brand new play station for him on ebay to a seller with 22 reviews. The buyer complained that the until didn't work, opened a case and sent back the unit. I received a completely different unit that was several years old and not functioning. A soon as the fedex return hit my front door the money was released to this crook. I complained for several weeks to both paypal and ebay without any results. I passed the money along to my kid however I was out over $200.

Wow what a terrible story. I can't believe there are low lifes out there like this... im sorry to hear this happened to you guys!

[Swift_Movement]

OP. I am terribly sorry to read through these posts. I hope the woman is brought to justice. I am wondering what happened with the watch she sent back? I do not think I saw that part. I would really continue pressing this if I were you.

I do know a few things from a google search. The woman works as a BHA at Bristol hospital.

This is the residential phone number for her listed online:2037548822

92 WAKELEE RD
APT 5
NEW HAVEN
WATERBURY CT 6705
2037548822

Candace Grzywinski Qazimi
Waterbury, CT
Age: 39


ADDRESS HISTORY FOR CANDACE GRZYWINSKI QAZIMI:
3 Addresses In Waterbury
1 Address In Bristol
1 Address In Plainville
1 Address In Avon

RELATIVES OF CANDACE GRZYWINSKI QAZIMI:
Paul Grzywinski
John Grzywinski
Sonny Qazimi
Gary Grzywinski
Judith Grzywinski
Christa Grzywinski

[mastermixer]

I refused the package, she still has her fake watch and my real watch.

Originally Posted by Swift_Movement

OP. I am terribly sorry to read through these posts. I hope the woman is brought to justice. I am wondering what happened with the watch she sent back? I do not think I saw that part. I would really continue pressing this if I were you.

I do know a few things from a google search. The woman works as a BHA at Bristol hospital.

This is the residential phone number for her listed online:2037548822

92 WAKELEE RD
APT 5
NEW HAVEN
WATERBURY CT 6705
2037548822

Candace Grzywinski Qazimi
Waterbury, CT
Age: 39


ADDRESS HISTORY FOR CANDACE GRZYWINSKI QAZIMI:
3 Addresses In Waterbury
1 Address In Bristol
1 Address In Plainville
1 Address In Avon

RELATIVES OF CANDACE GRZYWINSKI QAZIMI:
Paul Grzywinski
John Grzywinski
Sonny Qazimi
Gary Grzywinski
Judith Grzywinski
Christa Grzywinski

[cajunron]

I am really hoping this scumbag receives due justice. I'd be willing to bet that between ebay and paypal, crooks have stolen MILLIONS of dollars from people. How long can these crooks have carte blanche over unlawful internet transactions? It seems there is no regulatory, police, or government jurisdiction that has teeth in the matter.

[Swift_Movement]

Originally Posted by rgdejong

I am really hoping this scumbag receives due justice. I'd be willing to bet that between ebay and paypal, crooks have stolen MILLIONS of dollars from people. How long can these crooks have carte blanche over unlawful internet transactions? It seems there is no regulatory, police, or government jurisdiction that has teeth in the matter.

it seems you must essentially have a video camera running while you are packing the item at the post office and have the postal worker give live testimony on camera to concur with what is going into the sealed package for shipping.

[nick c]

Very sad story

[mhmd]

I do not like fraud
I wish you all the best

[dkatz]

Thanks for sharing this valuable lesson. I am in the process of selling a watch and just came across your thread. It really sucks! Best wishes.

[j4l3pp]

I only sell items as non-returnable for this reason.

[vimaljonn]

Sorry to hear OP, She sells a lot of cellphones...

[ale_ferrante]

Sorry to hear this awful story.
What happens if one tranfers the funds to the bank account before the other person opens a case with paypal? Paypal bill you for the amount and then, what? what if one doesn't pay?

[rmfnla]

This is awful!

I often recommend buying on ebay because of their consumer protection; it never occurred to me that the protection could be used to scam an honest seller.

I also find it interesting that she has read this thread but not chimed in with her side of the story; I know if I was innocent I would want people to know...

[j4l3pp]

This may be an argument FOR including the serial number in the pictures.

[77T]

There really is no way to stop the determined thief - just the stupid ones.

Hope you are able to prevail eventually.

[MichaelB_Can]

Hopefully she goes to prison for this ........ Guys we need to keep our eyes open in case she tries to sell the real watch !! Police are notified of her actions ... It's only a matter of time before she trips up and goes down , HARD !
Got to love how her work & family members are listed here ! Maybe THEY will tell her to do the right thing and give it back !!
And lady if your reading this , even my 6 year old knows that taking things that arn't his are WRONG !!!



Mike B , Canada ⌚

[brian8121]

Originally Posted by j4l3pp

I only sell items as non-returnable for this reason.

Well, there's the issue. When it comes down to it, your stated return policy doesn't matter. All the buyer has to say is that the item was grossly misdescribed and there's a good chance he/she will get a refund after returning the item to you (and in some cases, not returning the item to you). As has been demonstrated numerous times in this sub-forum, Ebay/Paypal heavily favor buyers in this case.

I don't mind that sort of weighting (toward the buyer) in itself, except it doesn't appear to be much effort on Paypal's part to thoroughly investigate and evaluate the facts from an informed POV. It seems like Ebay/Paypal just want to get the case closed. A credit card dispute over $60 can take 3 months (personal experience over an Amex charge), Ebay/Paypal disputes often close in less than a month. Once I sold a guy an old Leica camera lens, he opened a case (before contacting me to simply return it), and they refunded his money before I got the lens back!

The 'return a fake watch' scam seems to be a loophole that Ebay/Paypal needs to address - perhaps hire specialists or train people who can evaluate fairly or at least set up some guidelines for such a transaction (e.g. you must videotape shipping process, etc) to protect both buyers and sellers. I imagine the same scam happens every now and then with jewelry. This isn't the same as someone opening a case as a $250 compact camera. I doubt they will, since they're all about volume.

Robert, good luck. Hope this works out in your favor.

[franksremote]

Makes you wonder if PP responded to the chargeback request from the CC company at all. It's incredible that they fail in representing their case to the CC company and have charged you back even though they've sided with you in a dispute. Only copies of their response to the buyer's CC Co. would tell if they even presented the case at all.

Also makes one wonder if the buyer's cc would show her purchase of the fake...

At least open the case with their local PD, one never knows what might come up during an investigation and poetic justice is still justice in the end.

Good luck, a sympathetic investigator may be awaiting your call.

[vimaljonn]

Originally Posted by franksremote

Makes you wonder if PP responded to the chargeback request from the CC company at all. It's incredible that they fail in representing their case to the CC company and have charged you back even though they've sided with you in a dispute. Only copies of their response to the buyer's CC Co. would tell if they even presented the case at all.

Also makes one wonder if the buyer's cc would show her purchase of the fake...

At least open the case with their local PD, one never knows what might come up during an investigation and poetic justice is still justice in the end.

Good luck, a sympathetic investigator may be awaiting your call.

That is a very good point, not sure how one can find out but if OP takes her to court, they probably can.

[MichaelB_Can]

That's a long shot . She could have got it anywhere (pawnshop) and then she hunted for the same (Real) watch. Wouldn't that be something though ...!? If she was dumb enough to buy both watches on the same card !


Mike B , Canada ⌚

[hambler]

after selling my watch on ebay but before shipping it out, i called both paypal and ebay and spoke to them for a long time asking every question i had since it was my first auction. anyways i brought up a situation like yours and asked what if my buyer has a con artist of a friend with a broken similar watch that uses the exact same movement as the one i sold and he does a switcharoo of the movements behind the buyers back and now the naive buyer wants to return the broken watch back to me. they seemed puzzled how anyone could even think of a scenario like that but assured me my seller protection would protect me and the buyer protection would protect the buyer and our case would be up in review. so basically they are taking the hit. im not sure whether they were just saying that so i ship it out so they can collect their fees or if its actually true. anyways good luck.

[chicfarmer1]

Originally Posted by rmfnla

I often recommend buying on ebay because of their consumer protection; it never occurred to me that the protection could be used to scam an honest seller....

It's a very well-known issue.

[opm2008]

I really hate this. Makes a pleasurable activity such a pain it makes you wonder if it's really worth the time. Really sorry to hear about this and I am so glad you are standing your ground. If you have picture/video evidence, all the better. If not, well, true justice will prevail eventually. Keep the faith!

[George Ab]

Yes, this is getting to be quite prevalent. Credit card charge back fraud. Same situation happened to me with Rolex Submariner 116610 on eBay. Scammer used a fake watch as supporting evidence... a terrible one at that. I had significant documentation to support watch as real, invoice, letter from watchmaker, and on an on. eBay and PayPal sided with me and I never found out what happened with credit card charge back. I finally got my -$8,000 PayPal balance settled. I closed my PayPal business account and have never sold on eBay since. It was extremely unsettling.

[mastermixer]

Was this recently? How did they not tell you what happened with the charge back.

Originally Posted by George Ab

Yes, this is getting to be quite prevalent. Credit card charge back fraud. Same situation happened to me with Rolex Submariner 116610 on eBay. Scammer used a fake watch as supporting evidence... a terrible one at that. I had significant documentation to support watch as real, invoice, letter from watchmaker, and on an on. eBay and PayPal sided with me and I never found out what happened with credit card charge back. I finally got my -$8,000 PayPal balance settled. I closed my PayPal business account and have never sold on eBay since. It was extremely unsettling.

[guitarist363]

SCAM EBAY SCAM EBAY

i just left ebay after finding thread " best to sell in forum "
ebay is set up for scams. you have to read all of ebay information and forums ( only a matter of days ) to realise its a no go area for selling a Rolex.
I think its full of SCALPERS /TICKET TOUTS. and of course lowlifes. and then EBAY only has automated message system for complaints. you will find this story in there forums .

And as life has it this could be another fun time for someone.. as this member has many forum posts...one would think he would know better by now.. maybe he likes to talk.

the internet sucks, maybe ill keep my watch. and wait for my slash amp. ENJOY

[socalwatchcollector]

You have to get an attorney which the good ones will have a solid PI. I see your up in LA. If you need a good attorney that will reign down fury let me know...

Ebay is nothing more than a racket that hides behind attorney contracts.... Legal criminals if you would...