Tiffany and Co GMT-Master

[faiteaccompli]

I just wanted to share this watch that is in my late husbands collection and get any input on it, especially just about what it is, rare or not etc.

I do know it is authentic as I took it to our Rolex Specialist Tom Doan and he authenticated it , it needs 1k of work (maintenance and repair) but it runs good.

I was wondering if anyone knows anything, just general information. Tom really doesn't know much about it himself, just that it is GMT-Master and he believes an authentic Tiffany and Co.

Any input is welcome, thank you very much. It is rather old so some of the work it needs is obvious (hence the 1k to get it up to par) Tom liked the patina on it. These are bad photos as my cell sucks but I can try for better. It has the "t' stuff on the dial. (swiss - T < 25)

I will post a couple other Vintages I found too, later :)

[andromeda160]

Tiffany font doesn't look good

[Jason71]

Nice 1675. The 1675 GMT Master is a fairly popular watch at the moment. It is worth a nice sum. Any chance you have the paperwork from when it was bought from Tiffany's??

[lee fowler]

Looks like an early PCG case so the font might be correct. The experts will be along soon!

[faiteaccompli]

Hi guys :)

Tom Doan (CW21 WOSTEP Certified, Neuchatel, Switzerland), one of the best Rolex men in San Diego (and really in CA I think?) feels the Tiffany and Co is legit. But, he concedes no way to 100% prove without the original papers. He felt the font was correct (examined it thoroughly). The watch is very old though. They had a real hard time reading the one digit in the serial number.

My husband did not keep papers on almost all of them (except Presidential date/month watch I have) . He was known to frequent auctions through Sotheby's and other fine auctions (Christies and I am sure others) so it is very possible it is authentic Tiffany.

I am excited to see what experts and even non experts think though because as Tom said, it can't be proven 100% without papers to the thoughts on this are very welcome.

I can take more photos and try for having the hand moved away from the Tiffany and Co too.

[shane0mack]

It's an interesting combo to see the PCGs with a matte dial. Although, it's a MkI matte, so I guess it's somewhere in the realm of possibilities when it comes to vintage Rolex, however unlikely. With that said, you have a more recent bracelet on it judging by the solid links, so the watch was definitely touched at some point by either your husband or the previous collector.

Knowing the serial and seeing the inside of the caseback would provide a little bit more context. But of course, papers would be ideal.

[faiteaccompli]

Hi, can I ask what are PCG's? Sorry learning all this .

As far as the bracelet, seems reasonable that someone switched it out (says 78360)

[asleep]

The "Tiffany & Co." can add some significant value.

Do not send the watch for service yet, as some of the things typically done in a "routine" service can significantly diminish the value to a collector. No polishing, no replacement dial, no replacement bezel!

I'd take my time before doing anything, spending some time here on TRF and learning what you can. The collective Rolex knowledge here is impressive.

[Etschell]

i am not an expert but why is the GMT hand not painted red? the case looks correct. as far as the tiffany font is concerned i have seen no example that matches but tiffany did several variations on dials i have seen.

perhaps the paint fell off the gmt hand. the lume got knocked out too.

[faiteaccompli]

i took more photos of it and I notice it is odd, the 1:00, 10:00, 11:00, 12:00 markers are very white along with the Tiffany and Co. The writing under the Tiff and Co is white too along with the T <25 marker thing.

The rest is patina. Can I ask what are the PCG"s, sorry learning (already asked but that comment went to never land) The bracelet is 78360, 593 end links

I am reading in various posts about these it is best not to have them serviced for fear of altering even more of the watch than could have already been?

Posting best I could get with my crappy cell camera. (blurs easily and that is frustrating me)

[faiteaccompli]

Originally Posted by Etschell

i am not an expert but why is the GMT hand not painted red? the case looks correct. as far as the tiffany font is concerned i have seen no example that matches but tiffany did several variations on dials i have seen.

I don't know, it has a lot of patina, can't see it all in the photos because my camera is a bit blurred) It is not red for sure though just looks rather old.

My husband used his watches, this one was in our safe though.

[TimeToGo]

Looks very sloppy, better pictures, if you can.

The "N" in Tiffany is cut about ends by the lower leg of the "A" and top left of the "Y."

Obviously this dial is not period correct for this case, so replaced along the way...

[TimeToGo]

Here you for comparison - as seen on this article:
https://rwg.cc/topic/149110-rolex-gm...ictoral-part-1
.

[Jason71]

Originally Posted by faiteaccompli

i took more photos of it and I notice it is odd, the 1:00, 10:00, 11:00, 12:00 markers are very white along with the Tiffany and Co. The writing under the Tiff and Co is white too along with the T <25 marker thing.

The rest is patina. Can I ask what are the PCG"s, sorry learning (already asked but that comment went to never land) The bracelet is 78360, 593 end links

I am reading in various posts about these it is best not to have them serviced for fear of altering even more of the watch than could have already been?

Posting best I could get with my crappy cell camera. (blurs easily and that is frustrating me)

PCG = Pointed Crown Guards

[faiteaccompli]

Well so far I am realizing it is missing the red hand altogether, perhaps this was one of the items Tom wanted to do to it, I'll have to ask him.

As I said he verified it is authentic Rolex but of course that does not mean the rest is, that would take him sitting down with it for more than the little bit he had it. As far as period correct....can I ask what year did Tiffany first start putting out the black matte dial?

[seattleal]

Originally Posted by faiteaccompli

i took more photos of it and I notice it is odd, the 1:00, 10:00, 11:00, 12:00 markers are very white ........

Sounds like the lume is missing from those plots, although it could be the lighting.

Again, better photos would help in the diagnosis.

[faiteaccompli]

I am going to put this guy aside and work on some of the others, but if anyone has any input would love to hear. I will try for better photos.

I would hate to do anything to take away from its vintage'ness as it looks like maybe already someone could have. (Someone mentioned case and dial not being time period consistent)

I will post a few others I have that are not as hard to peg down but I think are still very pretty. And happily found what I believe are the purchase records from Sotheby's , I have to double check.

Thanks for any help.

[springer]

The dial should be gilt lettered...gold...not white lettering. The photos are poor and the dial appears closest to a Mark I dial, it is either that or aftermarket.

[faiteaccompli]

By gilt lettered do you mean the patina? Tom Doan was admiring the patina on it actually. But, it does have a couple that are white, someone was mentioning the luminescent might have worn off or who knows, cleaned off (by someone in its lifetime as people don't understand how fixing them up can hurt them)

Not sure you meant patina though :) I am sorry my Rolex terms are not up to par, I am learning.

[cajunron]

Originally Posted by andromeda160

Tiffany font doesn't look good

X2. I have never seen the T&C font look that way on ANY Rolex dial.

EDIT: I stand corrected! I found a vintage Milgauss with the same exact font on Google. Sorry, my bad.

[faiteaccompli]

It looks like I may need to have Tom take the dial off and look at it. He did not say if this was 'all original' only authentic.

[TimeToGo]

Originally Posted by faiteaccompli

I am going to put this guy aside and work on some of the others, but if anyone has any input would love to hear. I will try for better photos.

I would hate to do anything to take away from its vintage'ness as it looks like maybe already someone could have. (Someone mentioned case and dial not being time period consistent)

I will post a few others I have that are not as hard to peg down but I think are still very pretty. And happily found what I believe are the purchase records from Sotheby's , I have to double check.

Thanks for any help.

This forum is here to help! Don't take the comments the wrong way but when it doesn't match.. it is what it is, regardless what "Tom" says..

Look forward to seeing more of the collection!

[TripleB Boston]

fwiw, Springer is the resident GMT master (pun intended) on this forum.

[faiteaccompli]

No no, I am not taking it the wrong way. Tom Doan (in fact he is referred on here at times) is just a very respected Rolex Specialist in this area :) And I would love for someone here to give me information and I plan to pass it on to him when I go in there again (soon)

I don't believe he is a Vintage Rolex specialist but I do plan to ask him next visit.

I want help or wouldn't be here asking but I still want to communicate what I have been told too without anyone thinking I am being argumentative, just learning.
:) Thank you for each comment.

[cajunron]

Originally Posted by faiteaccompli

No no, I am not taking it the wrong way. Tom Doan (in fact he is referred on here at times) is just a very respected Rolex Specialist in this area :) And I would love for someone here to give me information and I plan to pass it on to him when I go in there again (soon)

I don't believe he is a Vintage Rolex specialist but I do plan to ask him next visit.

I want help or wouldn't be here asking but I still want to communicate what I have been told too without anyone thinking I am being argumentative, just learning.
:) Thank you for each comment.

Best of luck to you.

[themaninblack]

Remember Tiffany hand painted or stamped their name on some of those dials themselves but most came pre printed from Rolex, this ones a bit of an oddball, perhaps that's a good thing, perhaps not!

[southtexas]

Interested to see what else is in the collection!

If he bought watches from auction houses, maybe they have records of the transactions/items sold which could help you?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[tjbender]

Yeah that lettering definitely looks off....

[mdw3]

As previously observed, because (i) the watch case is of the "pointed crown guard" variety, and (ii) the dial is a matte variant, the dial and case could not possibly have been originally born together. Further, the "Tiffany & Co." printing font is not of an accepted type for the purported age of the dial. If the watch were indeed purchased at auction in the past, as has been suggested above, it would not be surprising to find that it is comprised of parts that did not begin life together, and not shocking to have a later-added retailer signature, either.

Michael

[faiteaccompli]

Hi guys (thank you so much for the educated vintage watch loving input) , if it was purchased at retail it would be 1) Sothebys 2) Christies or 3) some other reputable Auction House, it has been stashed in the dark recesses of my husbands safe for years and years. It finally is seeing the light of day lol :) How many years I don't know but his most avid collecting happened in the early 1990's.

I understand so what I know so far from this forum is

~~Tiffany hand painted some dials themselves

~~It seems rather impossible to authenticate the Tiffany portion of this watch and due to the fact they hand painted rather than just stamped (and I read on another blog they also had many stamps and some were from Tiffany but used much later on dials to replace parts, I can get exact wording but have to dig again) makes it just folly for me to even think I can authenticate the Tiffany part of this watch. So the pure fact is even Tom Doan and noone else can authenticate the Tiffany portion of this watch.

~~The watch is a bit of what I told my mother last night a "Frankenwatch' as it is consisting of some parts that do not originally go together. So it could very well be a Tiffany dial put onto a case etc. Who knows? It is still not possible to authenticate anything as I have nothing but Tom Doan (who knew my husband 15 years one of his favorite clients, Tom Doan is CW21 Certified of which there are currently 130 in the USA, however Mr. Tom (who we love) is NOT an expert on Tiffany. He does however service Rolex Dealers watches).

Tom examined the watch in front of my mother and I , offered to buy it and said "It is authentic, as to the Tiffany I would say "yes' but there is no known way to authenticate it". He also commented on the patina being a good thing.

However Tom did say it needs 1k in service. ( I did not ask for what, it is very gunky inside even though it runs like a trooper)

My Plan is to take it back to Tom after Christmas and ask him what he was planning to do with the 1k service, and also ask him if he might open it up for me and go over the parts telling me what it "Frankenwatch' consists of! :)

Once Tom does that I could at least know what Frankenwatch consists of , but no we will never be able to know about the Tiffany and Co and because it does appear handpainted . It does not appear stamped at all. Under a jewelers loupe I'd say it is for sure painted on.

I am currently waiting on Sothebys to get back to me as my husband has a record with them in 1994 Lot 085 I believe of 2 Stainless Steel Oyster Rolexes, the issue is the statement they sent me is just that, a summary as follows:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Feb 14, 1994 (Before I met him)
LOT 0385: Two Stainless Steel Self-Winding Sweep Seconds Calender Wristwatches, Rolex Oyster

Hammer price $xxxxx

Buyer's Premium $xxxxx

Tax $xxxxx

Lot total $xxxxx
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I never saw him wear this watch so I am assuming it went into the safe so that means it probably came to him in the shape it is in.

He wore the heck out of his 18k Presidential, Blue/Gold Oyster, etc even mucking horse stalls so I know he wore watches he loved. Why this one sat in the safe I won't know. I never asked to see all his watches as it was his private thing he did for himself.

Anyway, thank you because this is why I joined the forum and donated was to come and learn and is exactly what I am doing. Tom Doan is great but he can not give me vast Vintage overview that people who love them can.

I am waiting on Sothebys to get back to me with 'hopefully' a detailed invoice to see if this watch was in that lot (0385) or not! :) (edited to add: They just replied on Christmas Eve nonetheless but are asking what lot so it will still be a question as to whether they can provide more details on that lot)

If not back to the Drawing board and I have an email into Christies to see if perhaps they have some info as I never contacted them yet.

~Do not worry, I will not let this watch go to anyone letting them think it is all that it appears , Tom opening it up and telling me dial/case , date etc will sure help~