Rolex Explorer Blackout

[Andrewdl007]

Hello,

I was getting a battery replaced at a watch booth in New York and in the counter the man had a Rolex Explorer. I asked about it and he said it was a Blackout model from the early 90's. I looked into the watch and it sounded interesting but there seems to be very little info out there on the Blackout model. I didn't look close enough to say condition, but it was just in a plastic sleeve so I'm guessing it doesn't have box or papers. He said he was asking $5,500 for it.

I know that the Blackouts can bring a higher price than a normal explorer of the era, but what are they going for these days? I'm guessing the watch if all original has not been refurbished.

Any thoughts or information would be much appreciated.

Andrew

[Hemingway]

Originally Posted by Andrewdl007

Hello,

I was getting a battery replaced at a watch booth in New York and in the counter the man had a Rolex Explorer. I asked about it and he said it was a Blackout model from the early 90's. I looked into the watch and it sounded interesting but there seems to be very little info out there on the Blackout model. I didn't look close enough to say condition, but it was just in a plastic sleeve so I'm guessing it doesn't have box or papers. He said he was asking $5,500 for it.

I know that the Blackouts can bring a higher price than a normal explorer of the era, but what are they going for these days? I'm guessing the watch if all original has not been refurbished.

Any thoughts or information would be much appreciated.

Andrew

The blackouts are quite collectible for many reasons, if it's the real deal. There are fewer than 30 known to have been made... I am currently putting together an official Explorer Blackout registry website to help keep track of these watches.

If you post a photo of the watch with the serial number or PM me the contact info of the seller I can tell you more

[fskywalker]

There are a few threads on the blackout Explorers. They look cool, but most likely no lume on the dial by now as old models used tritium.

[RHJ]

With the courtesy of TRF und Hondikee Images the detailed comparision between these two dials

[dysondiver]

ah the old less is more thing ,, didnt realize there was only thirty of them in the wild ,,, im seeing the next 5517 or comex here.

[Haywood_Milton]

Where did the story originate that there were only thirty?

I do not believe that figure. They are, nonetheless, quite rare.

Look for the silver text, too, rather than white. This is not always obvious in photos.

As for them being comparable to Comex or mil subs.....I don't think so. The history and provenance is incomparable for those issued pieces.

I was offered one with box and papers but effectively sight unseen, supposedly in great condition, some months ago. I suggested around £5,000 for it which I felt was quite enough; a few small problems were identified that would require service work.

If there were only 30, all I can say is that they're being recycled through chrono24 at a good lick! More likely, as I believe, there were a greater number made. Will see if my records can tell me any more when back at my desk tomorrow.

Haywood

[Hemingway]

Haywood, would love to see what your numbers say. 30 is the consensus from Hodinkee and Walter. I'm sure Eric Ku can back it up as well.

I have an excel spreadsheet of all the blackouts w/ serial numbers that the internet documents as changing hands since 2001 and it is around 25 different serial numbers.

There are also TWO kinds of Explorer blackouts– the silver dial print, and the white dial print which is the same as standard explorers.

The Silver print dials run from E0 - ~E96 and the white print dials from E96-~X84 serials.

The silver dials are much cooler and more collectible because they mark the only modern(sapphire crystal) sport Rolex to have non-white print. The silver material is actually shiny/metallic and changes in different lighting just like the gilt dials from the vintage 1675, 6610, 1016, 5512, etc

The Blackout explorer is also more than just a dial– they have a unique seconds hand– the lume dot is further out– look at RHJ's photos or mine compared to the 'normal' 14270 Explorer.


If anyone has one for sale, send me a PM and I will buy it

Originally Posted by Haywood_Milton

Where did the story originate that there were only thirty?

I do not believe that figure. They are, nonetheless, quite rare.

Look for the silver text, too, rather than white. This is not always obvious in photos.

As for them being comparable to Comex or mil subs.....I don't think so. The history and provenance is incomparable for those issued pieces.

I was offered one with box and papers but effectively sight unseen, supposedly in great condition, some months ago. I suggested around £5,000 for it which I felt was quite enough; a few small problems were identified that would require service work.

If there were only 30, all I can say is that they're being recycled through chrono24 at a good lick! More likely, as I believe, there were a greater number made. Will see if my records can tell me any more when back at my desk tomorrow.

Haywood

[Haywood_Milton]

The following watches are mostly from my own records or those of other dealers whom I think we would all trust. There are further 14270 blackouts on Chrono24 and other dealer websites that have no indication of the case number.

E348xxx
E348xxx
E775xxx 1991 Hong Kong supply
E81xxxx
E81xxxx 1991 Kowloon supply
E813xxx 1994 Belgium supply
E813xxx 1991 UK supply
E813xxx August 1993 UK supply
E814xxx USA supply
E96xxxx USA supply
E965xxx
X49xxxx
X598xxx ?Jamaica supply
X75xxxx
X841xxx France supply

Furthermore, if someone has managed to identify 25 different serial numbers that have surfaced since 2001 I would suggest that this further supports a much greater amount than 30 having been made. Contrast this proportion with how many Comex and mil subs we have seen over the many decades since their (quite well recognised) batches were issued?

Until I have some reason to indicate otherwise, I have strong reason to believe that many more than 30 14270 Blackouts were made. I would suggest that one batch alone was several hundred in number. This conclusion would not change even if one or two on this list were somehow proven spurious.

I am not sure who Walter is, but would be grateful for indications of where I may see comments on production numbers from him, Eric Ku and Hodinkee.

There is no dispute that they are rare and I will happily accept correction as to how rare, with proof.

Haywood

[ralpie]

Originally Posted by Haywood_Milton

Until I have some reason to indicate otherwise, I have strong reason to believe that many more than 30 14270 Blackouts were made.

I have to agree with this, I have personally owned 2 distinct Blackout Explorers (one white print and one silver) both E serials (one earlier E and one later E) and I had both RSC serviced to ensure that there were no dubious parts on them- namely the dial (that's not to say somebody way back couldn't have replaced the dial with a genuine Blackout dial, but that would not change the conclusion either as it would have had to come out of an original blackout- a very unlikely what-if, but I digress).

Anyway, I would guess that there are at least a couple hundred out there. Internet sales history≠global availability.

A personal note- they seem to come up about as often as another loved rarity of mine- the Patek Philippe 5165.

[Hemingway]

Haywood– so what you're saying is that we need to gang up on Rolex until they give us production numbers :)

I went through my list– I count 25 distinct blackouts over the last 15 years. These include mine and both of Ralpies. There are more entries on the list but I don't have complete serial numbers for them so I can't be certain they aren't the same ones just changing hands– the same goes with your list. If you have any complete, confirmed serials, let me know them and I will add to the list. I plan on creating a dedicated site with info about these watches.

I would agree that the run was larger, but I wouldn't agree 100's at a time. My suspicion is that Rolex made a fixed number of dials/hands in 1989 and trickled them in over time. When the dials ran out, they used the extra black indices until they ran out– which would explain the existence of 'white print' blackouts.

The blackouts are rare enough not to have a mention or even photo in my Japanese Rolex Explorer book which is otherwise extremely thorough and covers Explorers from 1953 up through the 114270: (http://i.ebayimg.com/images/a/(KGrHq...g~~/s-l300.jpg)


What I find very interesting is that I have come across 2 Tiffany dial blackouts... I have no idea on authenticity, however there are other known Tiffany dials in the E/X serial range.

Originally Posted by Haywood_Milton

The following watches are mostly from my own records or those of other dealers whom I think we would all trust. There are further 14270 blackouts on Chrono24 and other dealer websites that have no indication of the case number.

E348xxx
E348xxx
E775xxx 1991 Hong Kong supply
E81xxxx
E81xxxx 1991 Kowloon supply
E813xxx 1994 Belgium supply
E813xxx 1991 UK supply
E813xxx August 1993 UK supply
E814xxx USA supply
E96xxxx USA supply
E965xxx
X49xxxx
X598xxx ?Jamaica supply
X75xxxx
X841xxx France supply

Furthermore, if someone has managed to identify 25 different serial numbers that have surfaced since 2001 I would suggest that this further supports a much greater amount than 30 having been made. Contrast this proportion with how many Comex and mil subs we have seen over the many decades since their (quite well recognised) batches were issued?

Until I have some reason to indicate otherwise, I have strong reason to believe that many more than 30 14270 Blackouts were made. I would suggest that one batch alone was several hundred in number. This conclusion would not change even if one or two on this list were somehow proven spurious.

I am not sure who Walter is, but would be grateful for indications of where I may see comments on production numbers from him, Eric Ku and Hodinkee.

There is no dispute that they are rare and I will happily accept correction as to how rare, with proof.

Haywood

[Hemingway]

I guess to be politically correct we could say that production numbers were extremely low and there are less than 30 known to exist.

[Haywood_Milton]

Originally Posted by Hemingway

Haywood– so what you're saying is that we need to gang up on Rolex until they give us production numbers :)

I went through my list– I count 25 distinct blackouts over the last 15 years. These include mine and both of Ralpies. There are more entries on the list but I don't have complete serial numbers for them so I can't be certain they aren't the same ones just changing hands– the same goes with your list. If you have any complete, confirmed serials, let me know them and I will add to the list. I plan on creating a dedicated site with info about these watches.

I would agree that the run was larger, but I wouldn't agree 100's at a time. My suspicion is that Rolex made a fixed number of dials/hands in 1989 and trickled them in over time. When the dials ran out, they used the extra black indices until they ran out– which would explain the existence of 'white print' blackouts.

The blackouts are rare enough not to have a mention or even photo in my Japanese Rolex Explorer book which is otherwise extremely thorough and covers Explorers from 1953 up through the 114270: (http://i.ebayimg.com/images/a/(KGrHq...g~~/s-l300.jpg)


What I find very interesting is that I have come across 2 Tiffany dial blackouts... I have no idea on authenticity, however there are other known Tiffany dials in the E/X serial range.

Hemingway, I have to say that I am disappointed.

You clearly have an interest in the subject and have started some sort of analysis which suggests we share a great interest in such watches.

Having very good reason to think your initial conclusion incorrect ("There are fewer than 30 known to have been made...") I was respectful enough of your efforts to put considerable time into collating some facts to propose a sound counter-case.

You had stated unequivocally "30 is the consensus from Hodinkee and Walter. I'm sure Eric Ku can back it up as well."

To assist the debate I asked if you could indicate where all three of these sources supported the claim that fewer than 30 are known to have been made. This has not been forthcoming.

Your own empirical evidence does not support the claim that no more than thirty were made.

You say that my list doesn't have complete case numbers, suggesting that they could be the same ones reappearing, but that is an incorrect assumption. I chose not to show here the full numbers of other people's watches, but in fact I have full numbers for almost every watch on that list or have been able to identify them as unique because of the date / source territory whence each came.

If you think hundreds of blackouts were NOT made in a single batch, one way to support that might be to find examples of 14270s from within the larger, known production runs that do NOT have a blackout dial (but also have no Rolex service marks in the case-back, which might indicate a dial change). In the complete absence of such examples, I find it almost certain that all within such a batch had a blackout dial.

If the Japanese book on Explorers doesn't contain any reference to blackouts then I would conclude only that the book is deficient in this regard.

I don't see that political correctness has anything to do with this. We have significant evidence which we should not ignore. Our hobby is burdened by a growing juggernaut of untruths and errors that are compounded through repetition on the internet especially; we better serve the community if we don't perpetuate same, never mind create more. To put forward theories as if they are definitive fact and cite sources for them, when the evidence points in other directions and the sources are not then realised, may lead others to material misunderstanding.

I cannot agree with the revised statement that there are less (sic / ahem, "fewer") than 30 known to exist. While I have seen only one turtle in the wild, I know that there must be many more.

i wish you well with your database and website. It is a worthy task and with better argument, a firmer basis in fact and sources specifically cited I would love to read it. I am sorry to have been slightly waspish, but while we clearly have much in common through our interest in the watches, I cannot help but feel that my earlier efforts in this thread were rather wasted.

I have no doubt that over a cup of tea and with some watches out we would have plenty happily to share.

H

[Hemingway]

Interesting reaction.

The fault is in thinking that anyone can provide the true production numbers outside of Rolex.

It doesn't matter if Ku or Hodinkee or a guy who wrote the book on vintage Rolexes all agree that there were only 30 made. Rolex does not release production numbers so it is anyone's best guess, and until they do release the numbers, all we have to work with is the data we've accumulated which at this point, and it seems like you and I have compiled the best data set there is. You see a turtle, are there more that exist? Maybe, maybe not. All that is proven is that one turtle exists– and science is only based on facts.

The fact here is that there are only about 30 confirmed blackout Explorers known to exist.

But the real question becomes: What number of the actual production does the number exchanged online and at auction represent?

We could only approximate if we know the production numbers of some other model and found the ratio of all historic online/auction sales and assumed this ratio was the same as for blackouts. But even that would only be a guess.


What I didn't mention above(because we were talking about blackouts) is that my Excel sheet covers all E/X serial 14270's I have come across.

As I mentioned, I count 25 confirmed unique serial blackouts, potentially 5 others but showing incomplete serials that could be redundant, and many "normal" 14270's sprinkled throughout the production run. These include E0, E2, E9, X4, X8 with my personal 'normal' 14270 being an X4 and blackout E9(made in July 1991)– both squarely inside the "run" of blackouts.


The TLDR; main takeaways from anyone reading this are that:

-nobody has actual production numbers other than Rolex
-production numbers are extremely low for this model
-if you buy one, make sure it has the original long seconds hand


If you have a blackout with photos/papers, please share via PM and I will add it to the list which will be published to the registry(serials will be hidden)

[rootbeer7]

Whilst no expert, I did read somewhere (and I'll be damned if I can remember where) that Haywood' s statement is closer to the truth. Rare, but in the hundreds. Perhaps a post asking members here and on other forums to help. VRF has a dial sub-forum, very useful when I was comparing my 1665.

[Haywood_Milton]

Again, please cite where your three quoted sources support your theory that "there are fewer than 30 known to have been made" ?

If one sees a certain number of Blackouts then it is reasonable to conclude that others will also exist, unless the observer is somehow satisfied that his sample exclusively represents the entire world population of such pieces.

"We could only approximate if we know the production numbers of some other model and found the ratio of all historic online/auction sales and assumed this ratio was the same as for blackouts." It so happens that we have a few instances of exactly that!

There are a number of Rolex production runs such as Comex and military issue watches where we have a very good or certain record of numbers produced and similar records of the number that have publicly appeared in the last 20 years or so.

"But even that would only be a guess." Would it, or would it be very sensible, empirical deduction? Why should the proportion of Blackouts to cross our path vary much from the proportion of any other Rolex models, including those where we have known data?

Keeping things factual, how many non-blackout dials have you on record from the E81xxxx series of case numbers? Anything to suggest such a non-blackout dial is original to that watch? One can see the temptation for unscrupulous people to swap them in and out, where they have a plain 14270 with box and papers etc and a blackout 14270 without.

I am happy to engage with well-reasoned and fact-based theories. I would love to be directed to any relevant comments of Hodinkee, Walter and Eric Ku on this specific matter such as have been indicated.

Haywood

[Verdi]

Guys,

Also, imagine how many ppl might have bought their watches and have no clue about what is a "black out" model.

[Hemingway]

Originally Posted by Haywood_Milton

Keeping things factual, how many non-blackout dials have you on record from the E81xxxx series of case numbers? Anything to suggest such a non-blackout dial is original to that watch? One can see the temptation for unscrupulous people to swap them in and out, where they have a plain 14270 with box and papers etc and a blackout 14270 without.

Actually if you have the papers with your watch, you can determine if it is an original blackout by looking at the 'Style Number' at the top of your papers...

Normal 14270: R14270A37B7879

Blackout 14270: R14270A37B9315

Tiffany 14270: R14270A37B7836



I believe this is the article that uses '30' but the page is down: http://www.hodinkee.com/articles/200...out-model.html

Most of what I can find are references to it being the 'Rarest sapphire crystal Rolex'.

[Haywood_Milton]

Papers outside the USA don't show the dial in that way. You did know this, right?

Of course, following the logic of this thread, without having personally visited each of the countries that are not America one cannot be sure that they actually exist.

Eric Ku seems today to be saying something very different from what you have attributed to him above.

I look forward to seeing the Hodinkee post when it is restored and to your direction to what Walter had to add.

This post will remain for people to find for some years, so let it be the definite test of the "fewer than 30 made" claim.

Haywood

[Haywood_Milton]

Originally Posted by Hemingway

Actually if you have the papers with your watch, you can determine if it is an original blackout by looking at the 'Style Number' at the top of your papers...

Normal 14270: R14270A37B7879

Blackout 14270: R14270A37B9315

Tiffany 14270: R14270A37B7836

Hold on, the only differences there are the bracelet codes!

78790 Oysterlock / 93150 Oyster Fliplock / 78360 classic Oyster.

Oh dear !

Haywood

[RHJ]

I think that a production lot of only 30 pieces for a company that just in the eighties produced hundred of thousands of watches a year is highly improbable. (Photo from a youtube video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x5ArSjYlJ9Y)

[fskywalker]

Originally Posted by RHJ

I think that a production lot of only 30 pieces for a company that just in the eighties produced hundred of thousands of watches a year is highly improbable. (Photo from a youtube video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x5ArSjYlJ9Y)

Agree, think they produced that model for like 1 year

[77T]

IIRC there were orderable options on the Explorer like the choice of bracelet type. The "blackout" may have never been floorplanned by Rolex USA. Thus dealers weren't allocated any. But as an orderable option, it is not beyond belief that so few could have touched our shores.
As for ROW (Rest of World) - I am blind to those possibilities.

IMHO it is entirely possible 2 score or less his the US while many many more could have shipped elsewhere without any way to document them.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[77T]

Originally Posted by Verdi

Guys,

Also, imagine how many ppl might have bought their watches and have no clue about what is a "black out" model.

It would have been the AD who noticed the missing lume I would think. They would have been snapped up by savvy ADs and never make it to the public. So I believe these made it to special orders.

[77T]

Originally Posted by Hemingway

I believe this is the article that uses '30' but the page is down: http://www.hodinkee.com/articles/200...out-model.html



Most of what I can find are references to it being the 'Rarest sapphire crystal Rolex'.

Is this later link from 2011 of any use?
https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/ju...lorer-blackout

He cites the 2008 article but his own link goes nowhere. And his search engine only returns 1 article about "blackout" filtered within Rolex.

[jedly1]

Originally Posted by Haywood_Milton

Hold on, the only differences there are the bracelet codes!

78790 Oysterlock / 93150 Oyster Fliplock / 78360 classic Oyster.

Oh dear !

Haywood

i think that he's refferring to the 37 as being the correct dial code for a blackout, which it could be but as you say thats only on Rolex USA papers which of course is only a small proportion of the market.

as for 30...no chance , sounds like a hodinkeeism to me... I've owned 3-4 and must have passed on about 10 offered to me in the wild as people always think they are something special when in fact they are a really hard sell.... i see eric says he's probably owned 30+ on his own...and morgan at least 10....so,.....

[Haywood_Milton]

Originally Posted by jedly1

i think that he's refferring to the 37 as being the correct dial code for a blackout, which it could be but as you say thats only on Rolex USA papers which of course is only a small proportion of the market.

as for 30...no chance , sounds like a hodinkeeism to me... I've owned 3-4 and must have passed on about 10 offered to me in the wild as people always think they are something special when in fact they are a really hard sell.... i see eric says he's probably owned 30+ on his own...and morgan at least 10....so,.....

Re the 37......not so sure. He seems to be specifying three different dials ("normal," "blackout" and "Tiffany") with the same code except for what we know are the different bracelet reference suffixes.

H

[jedly1]

Originally Posted by Haywood_Milton

Re the 37......not so sure. He seems to be specifying three different dials ("normal," "blackout" and "Tiffany") with the same code except for what we know are the different bracelet reference suffixes.

H

Oh yeah ... See what you mean !!! .... Well 37 is the part that is the dial code , 3 black , 7 quarter arabic and that appears to be consistent .... You might be right that he thinks the bracelet codes have something to do with the dial lol ... Maybe he could expand on that notion ?

[rootbeer7]

this is a brilliant post and a great reason to love Rolex and the 'myths'

[crowncollection]

Originally Posted by Haywood_Milton

Hold on, the only differences there are the bracelet codes!

78790 Oysterlock / 93150 Oyster Fliplock / 78360 classic Oyster.

Oh dear !

Haywood

Have to agree with Haywood. These are bracelet codes. The dial codes stated are the same, and what about the rest of the world where our papers don't have these codes ? I had two pass my eyes and sold them privately, not via auctions, he can add that to the total. Cheers

[Haywood_Milton]

Originally Posted by Hemingway

Most of what I can find are references to it being the 'Rarest sapphire crystal Rolex'.

While nothing like confirming "fewer than 30," even this statement (that I have read myself elsewhere) is incorrect. Some much smaller Comex lines with sapphire glasses might start the list of more realistic contenders. Suez Canal Subs? The list would be fun to compile.

As for TLDR ("Too Long, Didn't Read"), I often advise my own clients that patience is the greatest weapon in their armoury when looking to buy any Rolex, vintage or modern.

H