is wire transfer totally safe?

[cody p]

is there any potential for wire transferred money to be clawed back from your account, like say if the depositer used a fake cheque/money order to initiate the transfer? i read this in another thread and was wondering if there is any truth to it?

[TimeToGo]

Interesting question. I am looking forward to answers on this thread.

The last thread on this forum warned us of a scam of a potential buyer claiming to have wired funds but actually deposited directly into the bank account.

[JJ Irani]

Originally Posted by cody p

is there any potential for wire transferred money to be clawed back from your account, like say if the depositer used a fake cheque/money order to initiate the transfer? i read this in another thread and was wondering if there is any truth to it?

A wire-transfer is also known as a TT (Telegraphic Transfer) and can only done from one bank to another.

The sender's bank can only effect the transfer if the sender has the funds - no other way.

For example, if I am purchasing a watch from one of you guys, I'd go to my bank, tell them the amount in say US Dollars and the bank clerk would convert the US Dollars to NZ Dollars at the current rate of exchange.

I can then either pay cash in NZ Dollars + NZ$25 as bank commission....or ask them to debit my account for the TOTAL said amount.

This amount is then wire-transferred telegraphically straight into the receiver's account and should reach the very next day.

Most banks today use a SWIFT CODE which helps with quicker transactions.

It's easy, foolproof and 100% safe......because it's only from one bank to another bank.

Once the funds are in your account, that's it.....they can NEVER be withdrawn.

JJ

[jm433]

Be wary though about the new scam somebody posted. The buyer says that he is sending you a wire transfer, but then goes to a local branch of your bank and uses a bad cashiers check to deposit funds in your account.

The next day you look and find the money is in your account. You think it came in via wire transfer because that is what the seller says and you don't notice that the item is noted as a deposit, or don't even know that it should say wire transfer and not deposit.

A few days later the check comes up bad and the money is debited from your account. And you are out a watch.

[JJ Irani]

Originally Posted by jm433

Be wary though about the new scam somebody posted. The buyer says that he is sending you a wire transfer, but then goes to a local branch of your bank and uses a bad cashiers check to deposit funds in your account.

The next day you look and find the money is in your account. You think it came in via wire transfer because that is what the seller says and you don't notice that the item is noted as a deposit, or don't even know that it should say wire transfer and not deposit.

A few days later the check comes up bad and the money is debited from your account. And you are out a watch.

If the buyer does that, then it cannot be considered as a wire-transfer.

A wire-transfer or TT as I've explained above can only be transacted from bank to bank - not via a dud check.

[gingi310]

Originally Posted by cody p

is there any potential for wire transferred money to be clawed back from your account, like say if the depositer used a fake cheque/money order to initiate the transfer? i read this in another thread and was wondering if there is any truth to it?

Cody: I assume you are referring to my post (http://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=57505) and it may make sense to consolidate this discussion there, though I will leave that to the moderators.

One caveat to this entire post is that my understanding is based on U.S. banking laws and practices - I don't know how much, if any of this applies to Canada (where it appears you are located).

As I understand it, if you are in reciept of a genuine wire transfer (i.e. not the "faked" wire transfer I describe in my post, that transfer cannot be reversed without your permission or other evidence that the transfer was mistaken/fraudulent, etc. However, no matter what I or anyone else on this forum says, it is probably best to check with your bank. Go to your branch and have them show you the written documentation if you want to be sure.

One question I have thought about and don't have the answer to - what if a criminal fraudulently commandeered an account that was not his and then sent you a wire? Which of the innocents, if any, would be held responsible - the one whose account was fraudulently commandeered or the one who received the fraudulent wire transfer? Practically, this may not be much of a risk because if a criminal has that kind of access and control of a bank account, they would likely steal the funds directly instead of using an innocent third party.

There is however a risk associated just with giving out your account information that a buyer would need to wire you funds. That is, anyone with your (USA) account and routing numbers can withdraw money from your account by ACH debit. For personal accounts, this can usually be reversed within 60 days, but again, check with your bank. As I undertand it, ACH fraud is more of a practical risk for business accounts.

Further reading on ACH fraud:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/30/bu...r=1&oref=login (free account required - check bugmenot.com)
http://www.mortgageinvestment.com/Cr...bank-fraud.htm
http://www.treasuryandrisk.com/Issue...he-Crooks.aspx

_the_ging_

[astcell]

They have lawyers for it, so it must be possible!

http://www.teakelllaw.com/CM/Custom/wire-fraud.html

[gingi310]

Originally Posted by JJ Irani

Once the funds are in your account, that's it.....they can NEVER be withdrawn.

JJ

JJ: While I believe you are generally right - I am not sure that I would make such a definitive statement - would you want to bet your bank account on that being true at banks all across the world in all different scenarios?

What if, for instance, as I propose in my recent post, the bank account of an innocent is fraudulently commandeered and then used to send you a wire transfer? Who ends up with the short end of the stick? I don't know the answer.

Also, is your statement true in Indonesia? Guyana? Andorra? Texas?

[jm433]

Originally Posted by JJ Irani

If the buyer does that, then it cannot be considered as a wire-transfer.

A wire-transfer or TT as I've explained above can only be transacted from bank to bank - not via a dud check.

Sure. I agree. The thing to be wary of is being duped into thinking you have received a wire transfer when you really haven't.

[B Square]

I have done many real estate transactions over the years and had funds electronically transfered into my attorneys trust account. As soon as he verifies the transaction he cuts me a check. He has done this thousands of times for large sums of money and assures me it is totally safe. If you can't trust your slick attorney, who can you trust?

[cody p]

thanks guys, sounds like as soon as you are sure it was an actual wire transfer and those funds are in your account, you're good to go. and just to be sure check with your particular bank beforehand as to specific policies. i'm inclined now, however, to make every attempt to sell locally first for cash in hand. but i guess ultimately, there's never absolute security in nature no matter how cautious one is.

[stevemulholland3]

I have done literally dozens of wire transfers in and out the past 6 months alone...all have been trouble free.I know of no way you can be defrauded by a wire being sent into your account..once its there,it is there.
wire theft is actually a different matter altogether.wire fraud is when you say that you(gentleman "X") will send such and such if gentleman "Y" wires you said dollar amount,then "X" never sends such and such to "Y"
oh boy...that last beer is typing now...he-he