Marine Nationale Papers/Caseback Update

[daveycrawford]

Hi
As per request I have included pics of the decom papers as well as the case back. The papers are printed (Serial number has been partially hidden by myself) But you can see they were generated not by hand from blank papers.
Thanks for all the interest hope this helps.
Davey

[daveycrawford]

Here you go

[daveycrawford]

Here again

[exador]

Your case back concerns me. The engravings would not normally be paint filled and the M and N letters look too fat.

See Post #10 @ https://www.mwrforum.net/forums/show...ns-appreciated

[Dan S]

Originally Posted by exador

Your case back concerns me. The engravings would not normally be paint filled and the M and N letters look too fat.

See Post #10 @ https://www.mwrforum.net/forums/show...ns-appreciated

Coincidentally, I'm wearing that watch today ... with a better insert.

[mrs_LA]

Originally Posted by exador

Your case back concerns me. The engravings would not normally be paint filled and the M and N letters look too fat.

See Post #10 @ https://www.mwrforum.net/forums/show...ns-appreciated

The 2 on OP's caseback also has a longer 'hook' than most MN watches. Maybe OP can shed a light on the dealer who it was purchased from. Based on Dan's post at MWR, even the Davidoff bros sold a watch with a different font on the engraving - could it be possible that this may be another font used for engravings?

Originally Posted by Dan S

Coincidentally, I'm wearing that watch today ... with a better insert.

A wrist shot is in order?

[exador]

Originally Posted by mrs_LA

Based on Dan's post at MWR, even the Davidoff bros sold a watch with a different font on the engraving

I'd call that watch an outright fake.

[mrs_LA]

Originally Posted by exador

I'd call that watch an outright fake.

That is quite a claim, sir. They are two of the most respected vintage watch dealers in the industry.


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[soundserious]

Originally Posted by mrs_LA

That is quite a claim, sir. They are two of the most respected vintage watch dealers in the industry.

Ah, and therein lies the rub.

[exador]

Originally Posted by mrs_LA

That is quite a claim, sir. They are two of the most respected vintage watch dealers in the industry.

Here is the watch in question:
http://www.db1983.com/our-archive/tu...010-blue-mn-82

The caseback engravings are different to every other known MN82.
There is no model number stamped inside the caseback.
The serial number corresponds to around 1976, not 1982.
There are signs of a bracelet having been fitted (the MN watches never came on bracelets).
No papers.

Here's a legit one for comparison:
http://www.benwrightvintagewatches.c...h.php?watch=94

[Dan S]

I think it's good to approach authentication from various directions simultaneously. The OP has solid decom papers and a serial number from an established batch, and that combination seems pretty convincing to me, even if the engraving is slightly different than some other examples. I think it's probably within the range of variation that one might see, but that's just my opinion.

The DB example is a tough one, since the supporting evidence is pretty weak, and there are several anomalies. However, I wouldn't make a big deal out of the bracelet marks in particular, since the bracelet could easily have been fitted after decommissioning (as Ross Povey suggests on his tudorcollector.com website) or even during service as @classicwatch (Zaf) suggested in the MWR thread.

[mrs_LA]

Originally Posted by exador

Here is the watch in question:
http://www.db1983.com/our-archive/tu...010-blue-mn-82

The caseback engravings are different to every other known MN82.
There is no model number stamped inside the caseback.
The serial number corresponds to around 1976, not 1982.
There are signs of a bracelet having been fitted (the MN watches never came on bracelets).
No papers.

Here's a legit one for comparison:
http://www.benwrightvintagewatches.c...h.php?watch=94

I am not sure if it was necessary for production year to correspond with issue year, but I agree with you that 6 years in between production and issuance is a big gap. The bracelet may possibly be an after-the-fact? I'm just trying to point out some other scenarios or possible explanations. I can see why you say that it is a fake issue. Additionally, it seems like the hands have been color matched to the dial.

[05carbondrz]

And who’s to say someone didn’t fill the case back engravings in after the fact? This is very common in the Firearms Industry to make certain important engravings pop for online Photos.

[frackas]

[QUOTE=Dan S;9529924]"I think it's good to approach authentication from various directions simultaneously. The OP has solid decom papers and a serial number from an established batch, and that combination seems pretty convincing to me, even if the engraving is slightly different than some other examples. I think it's probably within the range of variation that one might see, but that's just my opinion."

Wise words. If the serial aligns with a known MN batch and with legit looking decom papers, everything points to a legit watch.

The M.N engravings were not done by the Rolex/Tudor factory, but by local navy bases in France. The engravings differ from base to base and the time period they were done. It's a poor marker of authenticity.

My initial question with this watch was the fact that it's a black snowflake dial 94010, which I have not seen in MN batches before. Normally you'll see a blue snowflake 94010, black snowflake 7016 and black or blue triangle dial 94010. But anomalies definitely exists and it looks like the evidence is suggesting an authentic watch in this case.

[daveycrawford]

The engravings are not paint filled, just never been cleaned! I will get them cleaned. The papers and serial number relate to approx 81 but this watch has been confirmed by others in this forum as one of a batch supplied to marine nationale and yes the serial numbers do in fact match the paperwork as stated printed not written! I also have the auction house statement of who (as in what role etc) this watch belonged too. Also they were in service at least past 83 in black form. Just search marine nationale MN 83. The hands are not colour matched at all they differ immensely, just cannot get them to show in such a small pixel size to upload. And as for where a strap/bracelet could have once been fitted I will try to post pics to show this better as well as clean the engravings 😁😁
As stated I have auction house details/dealer details who specialises in military watches/printed papers (any comments there?) And I agree the bezel may be too knew etc? The dail shows wear. I have other 80's watches with similar patina and usually snowflake dials and hand do not match ( I will try to show this better). I just thought as it is a later model,and not the normal blue, peeps here may be interested as we all strive to use & see what is out there as reference.
Great input though and some excellent points.

[daveycrawford]

Here you go
Hope this sheds a bit more light
Shows the colour difference and cleaner case back engravings and the place where a bracelet should show wear etc
This is great for me as they are all good points & the whole point of a forum where people can express their opinions and give guidance and open an honest views. Vintage is as always an education that's why I love it.

[daveycrawford]

Yes there is a model number inside the caseback and for further guidance to the year of manufacture the serial number starts 937***
Does that help give guidance to people with more accurate info regarding year of manufacture?
Also to summarize it has been confirmed it was in a batch of Tudors allocated to Marine Nationale.
Hope this helps 🙃

[05carbondrz]

Originally Posted by daveycrawford

Yes there is a model number inside the caseback and for further guidance to the year of manufacture the serial number starts 937***
Does that help give guidance to people with more accurate info regarding year of manufacture?
Also to summarize it has been confirmed it was in a batch of Tudors allocated to Marine Nationale.
Hope this helps 🙃

You will also learn that Watch Forums are full of People looking to pick your Watch apart,It’s fun for them to cast shade on the new Guy.The Omega Forum is the WORST,Stay far far away from there.

[daveycrawford]

Thanks for that. I appreciate it. How do we move on if we don't help and educate each other? I take every point on board and try to post pics or other bits of info that I find interesting in the hope others do too.

[mrs_LA]

Originally Posted by Dan S

I think it's good to approach authentication from various directions simultaneously. The OP has solid decom papers and a serial number from an established batch, and that combination seems pretty convincing to me, even if the engraving is slightly different than some other examples. I think it's probably within the range of variation that one might see, but that's just my opinion.

Agree with you. With vintage pieces, it's always a minefield. If there's only thing certain about vintage watches, it's that the more we know, the more we know we don't know! Just because OP's example varies from more common (and confirmed) issues, maybe we could approach it as a study for possible verification, rather than to immediately shoot down as fake.

Originally Posted by daveycrawford

The engravings are not paint filled, just never been cleaned! I will get them cleaned. The papers and serial number relate to approx 81 but this watch has been confirmed by others in this forum as one of a batch supplied to marine nationale and yes the serial numbers do in fact match the paperwork as stated printed not written! I also have the auction house statement of who (as in what role etc) this watch belonged too. Also they were in service at least past 83 in black form. Just search marine nationale MN 83. The hands are not colour matched at all they differ immensely, just cannot get them to show in such a small pixel size to upload. And as for where a strap/bracelet could have once been fitted I will try to post pics to show this better as well as clean the engravings ����
As stated I have auction house details/dealer details who specialises in military watches/printed papers (any comments there?) And I agree the bezel may be too knew etc? The dail shows wear. I have other 80's watches with similar patina and usually snowflake dials and hand do not match ( I will try to show this better). I just thought as it is a later model,and not the normal blue, peeps here may be interested as we all strive to use & see what is out there as reference.
Great input though and some excellent points.

@Daveycrawford, that was my initial thought when I saw the "filled" engravings - that it could have possibly been dirt and grime and not paint. The grooves on the vintage casebacks usually have black arm cheese stuck in them.

By the way, I was not saying that your hands were color matched. I was referring to the MN Snowflake that the Davidoff bros sold.

Thanks for the additional pictures.

[southtexas]

Originally Posted by 05carbondrz

You will also learn that Watch Forums are full of People looking to pick your Watch apart,It’s fun for them to cast shade on the new Guy.The Omega Forum is the WORST,Stay far far away from there.

Re: Omega Forums. No doubt about that observation. I’ve never seen anything like it.



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[daveycrawford]

Great replies and some pointers to more information.
This forum is indeed a lot more user friendly than a lot of others and when it comes to Rolex/Tudor especially vintage-we all need as much help and guidance and the want to keep learning and pass on as much knowledge as we can in order for our little hobby to continue. I have had many helpful messages and some much appreciated help.
Thanks guys/girls