5712, 5711 auction results this morning.

[Custom02]

Market softer but premium still healthy-ish especially considering the age (2008) of the 5712.

https://www.phillips.com/detail/pate...e/HK080319/818

https://www.phillips.com/detail/pate...e/HK080319/817

[Russell996]

Originally Posted by Patekholic

With the buyers premium to the auction house both of these are in excess of 70-75k. Not soft at all.

I believe those prices will include buyers premium?

[GB-man]

Ill say it again auction prices on regular production stuff is meaningless. You might as well consider the net to seller as the price because unless you are going to market the watch to that degree, you won't be getting those prices.

[Fat_ninja]

Originally Posted by GB-man

Ill say it again auction prices on regular production stuff is meaningless. You might as well consider the net to seller as the price because unless you are going to market the watch to that degree, you won't be getting those prices.

I don’t care about auction values... Jin is my watch fortune teller...

He said 5711a $100k
And
5170P $150k

End of story...

[Calatrava r]

Originally Posted by GB-man

Ill say it again auction prices on regular production stuff is meaningless. You might as well consider the net to seller as the price because unless you are going to market the watch to that degree, you won't be getting those prices.

Doesn't the auction house take 25 percent from the gross proceeds and some percentage again from the seller's net. Auctioning only makes sense on high dollar limited items where there is significant upside sales price potential in an undefined market.

[Josh1000]

You wonder why tbey just dont sell to a grey?

[locutus49]

Well, not necessarily. We auctioned an old painting - old master - because a gallery offered us a low price and we thought what's the worst that could happen? Fortunately, and surprisingly, we made enough to cover the hefty fees and make a profit. But the fees are substantial. Oh, and they only accepted it for auction because we had decent provenance.

Originally Posted by Calatrava r

Doesn't the auction house take 25 percent from the gross proceeds and some percentage again from the seller's net. Auctioning only makes sense on high dollar limited items where there is significant upside sales price potential in an undefined market.

[dbfagan]

I usually look at a couple of grey dealers in the US to figure out a price on Aquanauts and Nautilus’ as I will never get on a waitlist to purchase at retail. The AD’s in my area tell me they don’t even take orders. This is either true or they won’t take an order from me since I have not spent six figures with them in the last year. I digress, the asking ballpark for a 5711 from the aforementioned greys is $65k which tells me you can probably get one close to or just south of $60k. Based on that, I do not understand the auction price of $70k. Since the auction was in Hong Kong, maybe this reflects pricing in that neck of the woods.

[Commonproject]

That 5712 went for $65K, and seller needs to pay auction house a fee as well. Am I missing something?

[fwhawk]

Originally Posted by Commonproject

That 5712 went for $65K, and seller needs to pay auction house a fee as well. Am I missing something?

Most auction house results include the buyer's premium. 25% seems to be the norm these days. That means the high bid was about $52,500. The seller then pays a commission to the auction house (usually 10%). That would leave this seller with $47,250 (less some other miscellaneous fees for photography, etc.). The auction house profit on this one watch appears to be over $18,000. The auction business is pretty lucrative!

[zahain]

Originally Posted by fwhawk

Most auction house results include the buyer's premium. 25% seems to be the norm these days. That means the high bid was about $52,500. The seller then pays a commission to the auction house (usually 10%). That would leave this seller with $47,250 (less some other miscellaneous fees for photography, etc.). The auction house profit on this one watch appears to be over $18,000. The auction business is pretty lucrative!

What about sales tax? That isn't included into the end buyers hammer price correct?

[Keldw]

We are living in strange times, when a premium slightly over 100% on the 5711 is only considered healthy-ish.

Two years ago in October-November, a 5711 at a grey would sell with a $2000-$2500 premium. And that was before the 20% price increase on the Nautilus range.


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[Josh1000]

Nobody noticed the 5976 price

[Josh1000]

5270 g was a bargain for someone

[Russell996]

Originally Posted by Josh1000

Nobody noticed the 5976 price

Madness.

[benlee]

Originally Posted by Fat_ninja

I don’t care about auction values... Jin is my watch fortune teller...

He said 5711a $100k
And
5170P $150k

End of story...

5170P for 150k? Really? Now its still going for around half that.

How about 5711-1R?

[Custom02]

No disrespect intended but I think it’s a bit silly to describe auction results as meaningless.

Just to be clear those results DO include the buyer’s premium and so the 5712 (for example) hammered for 410,000 HKD ($52,400) and buyer paid 512,500HKD ($65,500) including the premium (25%).

Nowadays there is enough competition between auctions houses that you wouldn’t expect to have to pay any sellers commission and so the vendor would have received 410,000 HKD.

I think this information is useful both for buyers and sellers. For any owner considering selling there is something to be gained by knowing what one might achieve at auction vs selling to a grey or in a private deal.

For a potential buyer obviously it might be interesting to consider going through the rigmorale of registering and bidding via auction if there is some chance they end up saving a few thousand (or perhaps more) vs chrono24/grey.

Nothing ground breaking but not meaningless.


For those that are interested- this morning Phillips had the second session of that auction and another 5711+5712 went for sale.

https://www.phillips.com/detail/pate...e/HK080319/913

https://www.phillips.com/detail/pate...e/HK080319/912

The 5712 (2011) went for 562,500HKD ($71,900) and the 5711 (2013) went for 512,500HKD ($65,500).

[Josh1000]

I buy t sell quite a bit at auction and pay sellers Commission of 15%'.

[Custom02]

Depending on what your selling exactly (some things benefit from specialist knowledge and marketing) I would try and haggle that to zero in future. For a nautilus where the auction house knows it'll make $10,000 without much effort they won't have much come back when you say ''ok, I'll take to Christie's/Sotheby's instead'' and will agree to no seller's comm.

[Keldw]

This is from Philip’s https://www.phillips.com/buysell/sell



In Denmark, Bruun Rasmussen charges a 16% sellers fee


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[Custom02]

Insurance, transport costs etc- there is no escaping those but you’ll notice that no major auction house publishes their seller’s commission rate. That’s because it’s negotiable and to the experienced seller ‘’Our specialists will discuss these charges with you at the time of consignment’’ can correctly be translated as ‘’ZERO’’ for an non-unique and popular item like a Nautilus.

[Keldw]

Originally Posted by Custom02

Insurance, transport costs etc- there is no escaping those but you’ll notice that no major auction house publishes their seller’s commission rate. That’s because it’s negotiable and to the experienced seller ‘’Our specialists will discuss these charges with you at the time of consignment’’ can correctly be translated as ‘’ZERO’’ for an non-unique and popular item like a Nautilus.

Bruun Rasmussen will charge 16% regardless from the seller. And 30% from the buyer.


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[Russell996]

Originally Posted by Custom02

Depending on what your selling exactly (some things benefit from specialist knowledge and marketing) I would try and haggle that to zero in future. For a nautilus where the auction house knows it'll make $10,000 without much effort they won't have much come back when you say ''ok, I'll take to Christie's/Sotheby's instead'' and will agree to no seller's comm.

I've no experience of selling at auction but why would a piece that sells above MSRP be different for one selling at half MSRP with regards to sellers commission?

The auction house makes money on the sale price from both the seller and buyer independent of how much above or below MSRP the piece is selling for?

[Custom02]

No no, that wasn’t what I meant at all. If you are selling (for example) an English Victorian Side Cabinet it is probably worth paying the circa 15% sellers commission if it means it’ll go into an auction entitled ‘’The Collector: Silver and 19th Century Furnitiure’’ where its receive an proper expert appraisal, substantial marketing and will be presented in front of the right buyers.

A modern day Nautilus requires none of the above and could be sold with the same expected result at any major auction house in any appropriate watch sale and therefore they aren’t in a strong position to demand a sellers commission and there’s no need to pay one.

On the other hand the seller of the a very rare vintage PP might well benefit from paying sellers commission if the auction house commits to making a big sales push (videos, articles etc that get sent to account holders) which means that every potentially interested party knows that its coming up for sale and might make the difference between it selling for $3m vs $4m.

[jfriedkin]

I have sold LOTS at auction. Like anything else it's about a relationship. The better the customer the better deal you will receive.

Auction results are real facts of selling price. Not advertised Grey prices that no one know what it sold for.

As far as selling at auction, sure you might pay 10% of hammer. But then again, try selling to a Grey dealer and see what you get.

[benzng]

i was more surprised with the 5976 going bonkers

[T3F]

Originally Posted by Fat_ninja

I don’t care about auction values... Jin is my watch fortune teller...

He said 5711a $100k
And
5170P $150k

End of story...

I own both of those and hope he's right, but I'm not sure. I'd be absolutely shocked if the 5711A ever hit $100k -- they're not that rare or hard to get -- pick up a WT and a Calatrava for ~$70k together and you'll get one -- and honestly, it's just not a good watch at that price. For $100k, you can get a Grand Complication, a Royal Oak PC, a VC Overseas Tourbillon, an FP Journe Tourbillon, etc. $150k for the 5170P is more believable to me, but I'm still a little doubtful, at least in the relatively short term.

[AK797]

Originally Posted by locutus49

Well, not necessarily. We auctioned an old painting - old master - because a gallery offered us a low price and we thought what's the worst that could happen? Fortunately, and surprisingly, we made enough to cover the hefty fees and make a profit. But the fees are substantial. Oh, and they only accepted it for auction because we had decent provenance.

Are the fees 30% over there? That's what Rick keeps saying on his Pawn show.

[Bearxj86]

Originally Posted by benlee

5170P for 150k? Really? Now its still going for around half that.



How about 5711-1R?

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[tng11]

The sealed 5960Ps seemed like a bargain! That poor first gen 5270G went for $80K!

I note a few of the other Nautilus models are way down from their peak. RG 5711 went for just around $80K USD and RG 5712 $56K.