Zenith Daytona. Is the market softening?

[thekman]

The white dial Zenith Daytona remains one of my grails. I kick myself every day for not buying when they were 12k a few years ago. Over the past year or so most Zeniths I have seen have been in the 30k + price bracket however I was lookingon watchrecon today and noticed many around 20k and even full set daytonas for 25k. What do you all think? Did the market move up way too fast and it is now correcting?


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[Wahlberg]

Still don't get these prices to be honest. They went up HARD.

[subtona]

I remember them at 12 and they were often sitting for a bit.

In the early 90s they were selling at high premiums (I recall similar highs back then), and then they came down prior to release of the ceramic version, perhaps because they were so similar to the preceramic in-house.

The Zenith Daytona earned its premium because it was not an in-house movement. Rolex spent time modifying movements from zenith.

[athom]

I agreed the prices went up the last years but since some months I'd not say the prices are going done but stable...I guess the prices reached the highest point and will either stay like that or going a bit down...like some people already thought some months ago...

[Chester01]

I mean its like the GMT, literally thousands out there, it was made for a very long time, and yet people go nuts. I have had my issues with the daytona, but find the Zenith one a bit less blingy, but I would not pay a premium for that. I also dont get nostalgic for the movement, while yes it is the el primero, it simply not as good as the 4130. I found the fact that I could not hack the movement a real problem given I actually use the thing for timing things.

[DGB]

The price are stabilising in UK/ Europe.
There are many nuances with the Zenith Daytona, some are still going strong other are stabilising to moderate decrease.
Full set are obviously more expensive with around 25-30% premium.
There are many variations in the 16520, the first generation will be at 300 to 400% premium compared to the basic model, even more if the dial is in porcelain.
The last ones also are pretty sought after especially the P serial.
Inverted 6 or not, black v/s white dial , polish centre link or not, solid end link or not, tritium or not, many factors will impact the price.
And above all the condition of course will dictate the trend of the price.

I think the 16520 is now analysed like the vintage watches though not yet in the age category of real vintage.



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[BigAppleBill]

Originally Posted by DGB

The price are stabilising in UK/ Europe.
There are many nuances with the Zenith Daytona, some are still going strong other are stabilising to moderate decrease.
Full set are obviously more expensive with around 25-30% premium.
There are many variations in the 16520, the first generation will be at 300 to 400% premium compared to the basic model, even more if the dial is in porcelain.
The last ones also are pretty sought after especially the P serial.
Inverted 6 or not, black v/s white dial , polish centre link or not, solid end link or not, tritium or not, many factors will impact the price.
And above all the condition of course will dictate the trend of the price.

I think the 16520 is now analysed like the vintage watches though not yet in the age category of real vintage.

I would agree there are too many nuances to generalize the price direction of the Zenith Daytona’s. Some very rare examples come to market infrequently and continue to attract a high bid at auction. Others, especially the later year examples, can languish on the market for quite a while. Then there’s the whole Patrizzi dial phenomenon, with questionable examples all over the place. I wanted to acquire one, then gave up because the prices got silly for the earlier serial numbers and the potential for Frankenwatches increased.

[1665fan]

There 19-20k with no papers....papers 25 and up.....a lot depends on the rarity of the 16520.....white dial late model are not rare hence the low price

[1665fan]

Many 16520 are now overpolished with newer 116520 bezels...and once a daytona is overpolished with skinny lugs it’s no good for collectors

[subx]

Originally Posted by 1665fan

Many 16520 are now overpolished with newer 116520 bezels...and once a daytona is overpolished with skinny lugs it’s no good for collectors

agreed, the lugs on daytona's are so thin to start with.... once polished it's pretty much yuck

[PVR]

Zeniths have not gone down as far as I can see. SS versions without papers are still 18k or so and with papers around 23-25k which is about right at 25-35% premium for a full set.

As others have stated, the condition of the case and bezel are key. The cheap ones are the ones you see listed for 15k and 16k. The nice naked watches still are strong at 18k.

In General, I think the entire vintage market is soft right now but, that doesnt mean sellers are fire selling anything, but the buyers arent rushing to buy like they used to.

FYI HQ Milton just listed a SS full set for $29,850 and it isnt anything special. Not a Patrizzi, not an inverted 6 dial, not porcelain..Just a nice clean T serial, so doesnt look like prices for full sets are falling so fast..

https://www.hqmilton.com/timepieces/...d-papers-A3229

[zapokee]

You mean, like, have prices have passed their, er...zenith?

zenith
/ˈzɛnɪθ/
noun
The time at which something is most powerful or successful.

[jaisonline]

Hi,

Good questions. My 2 cents.

I think the 16520 market softens for avg conditioned samples w/o warranty papers for the majority of each year. Then inches up slightly. Rinse and repeat.

In my opinion, the market has not softened for full / near full set samples. Also, as people stated in this topic, there are many dial and bezel Mark variables that cause a wide range in prices.

The 16520 aren’t always popular with more folks because it falls in-between the much beloved 6463 + 6265 models and adored improved 116520. It's a different story for Rolex Daytona die hards though. They want the first Daytona with an auto movement and the original dial design that still being used today. The 16520 is part of Rolex Chrono history. It's these WISers who keep driving up prices up for quality samples. Maybe they can’t get an 116500LN at an AD, refuse to buy the absurd gray price, or can’t afford a 4-digit so they go for a 16520.

Another thing about 16520s that keeps prices high is they weren’t ever really easy to get at ADs. I hear crazy 1988-1999 low total production guess estimates #s because Rolex couldn't get enough Zenith movements and then spent time modifying each. So it was very limited compared to every other Rolex model during that span. There were far less 16520s produced than 16610LNs and 16710s. Thus supply never met demand then or now. So they keep appreciating slowly and steady w/o much notice until you step away for 6 months and come back to buy one.

From my observations about luminova dials (only tracked those prices in detail). I know the 16520s (e.g. T, W serials) in- between the “inverted 6” and ”luminova” models usually sell less than what I was tracking

For late U, A and P serials...

The market for avg condition incomplete sets remain stable for most of each year and than rise slowly. Then slows down again. These types of 16520s were going for $15k 2-3 years ago and now are about $19k now. Most samples I’ve seen have an issue here or there. E.g. worn cases / bracelets, over-polishing, bezel issues, etc...

Most of my research is for full / near complete sets (have warranty papers), correct bezel for est. serial #, etc...

Prices were around $7k in the mid-2000s. Up to $9-11k around 2011. Then things started to get very interesting in 2016 when the 116500LN Ceramic Daytona was released. Maybe the black circle outline sub-dial of the Ceramic version threw some attention to the 16520s as they starting shootings up in price faster than 116520s. who knows. I remember full set 16520 were around $16k then.

It's nearly impossible to find a late U, A and P serial) “Swiss Only” dial near / full set for under $25k. They are closer to $30k. NOS of these 3 serials are easily $40k+. Many resellers don’t even want to bargain much because they know their asking price will eventually be met for nice condition watches.

I picked up an unpolished A-serial near full set (missing the retail tag). Been tracking asking and sold prices for the last 2.5 years. Yeah, I’m one of the dummies for watching prices instead of buying one years ago.

Sorry for the long post.

Note: As with any post with old historic price mentions , everyone has seen different amounts. These are just my observations.

Originally Posted by thekman

The white dial Zenith Daytona remains one of my grails. I kick myself every day for not buying when they were 12k a few years ago. Over the past year or so most Zeniths I have seen have been in the 30k + price bracket however I was lookingon watchrecon today and noticed many around 20k and even full set daytonas for 25k. What do you all think? Did the market move up way too fast and it is now correcting?

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[thekman]

Appreciate everyone's answers. Guess I need more research before pulling the trigger.

[jaisonline]

Many of us are happy to help. Ask here, PM, etc.... good luck.

Originally Posted by thekman

Appreciate everyone's answers. Guess I need more research before pulling the trigger.

[1665fan]

Unpolished or lightly polished full sets are going up....all others staying the same.....the nice examples going up are getting harder to find.....That being said my favorite are the brushed bracelet early models

[jaisonline]

Originally Posted by 1665fan

Unpolished or lightly polished full sets are going up....all others staying the same.....the nice examples going up are getting harder to find.....That being said my favorite are the brushed bracelet early models

Very true.

Wish I could afford an early 16520 brushed model. I assume one nice thing about having an unpolished later model is all the micro scratches from wearing it have kinda turned the PCL links less shiny to better match the brushed case and links. Ha.

[1watch]

These are great models to own and wear. Haven’t looked at prices for some time, but the price premium ask for a full set was getting crazy and not worth the added ask over a solid watch only example IMHO.


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[Nauti]

I bought last year and sought out an A serial as I wanted SEL’s I have to say it has more charisma than a 116520 and feels special to wear...dial balance beautiful.

[Onequik135i]

Love wearing my recently acquired A serial. Unfortunately I purchased it late during the hype & it didn’t come full set when purchased, but it does have service papers, 13 links along with it being professionally polished by Rolliworks. Kudos to you guys who purchased yours before the crazy price increase.

[BamaHammer]

You didn't want it at 12k a few years ago because it was not popular. Now it is popular and you are considering paying double for it? Just buy what you like, not what others tell you is hot.

[jaisonline]

Many of us passed on popular models at a lower price years ago. The current premium watch brand market is silly for still in-production watches. So you can say that about most of us,

I don't think many of us here want a Daytona because of hype or buy items because they are “popular”.

For many such as myself, we always wanted a “modern” Daytona when getting into Rolex watches but just didn’t want to pay a premium or other cool models that were more affordable / available (e.g. the 6-digit Sub or GMT) caught our attention at / below MSRP.

In my case, the Daytona was put on my back burner, (so to speak) after getting confirmation from my AD, the time will come. Some of us are tired of waiting or think our time won't come.

At present day, some collectors (not investors) think their collection is sorta complete except for a Daytona. So some WISers probably think, why spend the dumb gray price for a 116500LN (still being made) when you can get a retired popular SS model or some precious metal model for nearly the same money?

Getting back to the OP, nah. I don't see the Daytona 16520 market softening much for quality pieces. It will take a pretty bad economic situation.

Originally Posted by BamaHammer

You didn't want it at 12k a few years ago because it was not popular. Now it is popular and you are considering paying double for it? Just buy what you like, not what others tell you is hot.

[roh123]

A big reason for the raise in Zeniths was the modern ceramic Daytona market moving to silly levels. Now that hype is cooling down and of course that will affect the older perpetual Daytonas. It wont either help that older manual Daytonas are coming down as well.

Personally I don’t see why the Zeniths should cost more than your average automatic Daytona. They aren’t really rare and they don’t stand out much visibly. I think the rare ones like porceline dials etc will stay hot but your everyday automatic Daytona will cost about the same regardless movement, bexel, brushing etc. Nice watches will cost money but I seriously don’t see them as more collective than other mass-produced Daytonas.

Each to their own but that is my point of view.

[swish77]

Originally Posted by roh123

A big reason for the raise in Zeniths was the modern ceramic Daytona market moving to silly levels. Now that hype is cooling down and of course that will affect the older perpetual Daytonas. It wont either help that older manual Daytonas are coming down as well.

Personally I don’t see why the Zeniths should cost more than your average automatic Daytona. They aren’t really rare and they don’t stand out much visibly. I think the rare ones like porceline dials etc will stay hot but your everyday automatic Daytona will cost about the same regardless movement, bexel, brushing etc. Nice watches will cost money but I seriously don’t see them as more collective than other mass-produced Daytonas.

Each to their own but that is my point of view.

I would agree with this, but that would be applying logic to something that isn't always logical. Daytonas are super special and have an almost magical allure to many watch lovers for whatever reason. Many of us find them beautiful, regardless if they're rare or not, or how collectible they might be. That doesn't matter.

Great examples of older models will always be tough to get, and I don't agree that the market is "softening" for any of them, Zeniths or manual-wind versions. Maybe mediocre examples are coming down a little, but not strong examples, and certainly not full sets. I watch them like a hawk on multiple platforms, and I don't see big price drops.

[1watch]

Reasons for the higher cost of the Zenith;
first automatic Daytona, fewer made than 116520, some interesting nuances - such as inverted 6, Patrizzi, “porcelain” variants...Majority also find the slimmer hour indices, slimmer and centered sub dial rings more appealing as well. I believe those reasons drive the higher value.


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[Onequik135i]

And to add to this I haven’t seen a price drop on them either. It does Seem the rough looking full sets sit around a while priced in the mid to upper 20’s & nice full set examples do sell for that price range (excluding the floating Cosmograph ones of course). I remember always taking a liking to them 20 or so years ago but even then they were typically a $10k priced watch if I’m not mistaken or at least from what I remember (along w the waiting list).

[motoikkyu]

My Zenith Daytona is my only Rolex chronograph. The only other I would ever consider owning is the pre-Daytona 36mm Oyster-cased with the Valjoux 72, but I think $28K is too much.

While always a Rolex fan, I've had a place in my heart for the El Primero high-beat auto chronograph movement since the early 1990s (they were 20 years old, at the time!). I had one with a fade dial that was PERFECTLY tuned and more accurate than a quartz watch, at least, a lower-end quartz watch. That, to me, was perfection --mechanical to rival quartz accuracy. So, I always coveted the Zenith Daytona, because of my love for that movement. I think I paid $8K in 2014, no one really wanted them, and no one could be more surprised by the meteoric rise in values than me: purists want the in-house movement, there aren't THAT many dial variants, etc. But, for some of us, this is the chronograph that dreams are made of, even with the 36,000 beat movement castrated to 28,800.

[fusionstorm]

Wasn’t this the first Rolex production model that was widely coveted immediately upon its introduction, and were able to sell at significant premiums on the secondary market from the get-go? Anecdotally, seems like most every other vintage sports model prior to the Zenith Daytona did not command interest and premiums until later in life, or more often well after they’d gone out of production.

I do regret not getting a porcelain dial full set when the opportunity presented itself in the late 2000s..........

[motoikkyu]

Fusionstorm, you are correct. Those porcelain dials are beautiful!

[Onequik135i]

And no PCL’s either which makes the watch look even better.