Looking for Advice 1959 Rolex 5512

[Baldwin1881]

Hi. First time poster. I know my way around vintage watches, but never learned the minutiae surrounding the Rolex Submariner. I have a model 5512, serial number 478XXX, the inside case back says 5512 & III.59. I've attached some pictures & I can provide my observations but please bear with me as I am using terms that I have gleaned from other posts & probably don't fully understand. The case looks like either an "eagle beak" or a "PCG" The bezel has a faded red triangle & a "long 5". The hands are "flat" & appear to be the "correct length", the dial does not say "superlative", says only "swiss" at 6 o'clock, the coronet has the "long right hand spike" The text is white except for the depth rating & chronometer verbiage which is almost a lavender color. Lume on the dial & the hands match exactly but it does not appear to be Radium, it looks more like tritium, the dial does not appear to be relumed. The movement is a 1560 with 25 rubies & copper colored auto wind gears.
When I received this watch, it was on a Spiedel band, heavily encrusted with gunk & a very scratched crystal. So far I've only cleaned the case & polished the crystal. I need to repair the movement but I thought it best to ask for a few expert opinions before I do anything irreversible.
Is this anything that the Rolex Forums community is interested in talking about?

[vintagewatch]

Welcome to the vintage forum (from a fellow Coloradan). Your 5512 unfortunately has a few issues. The bezel insert shouldn't have the red triangle��on it, the dial at minimum has been relumed, the text is off (see picture), and the hands lume is also incorrect. Sorry for the negative info. Below is a picture of a 5512 in my collection for comparison.

[stmoore]

Originally Posted by vintagewatch

Welcome to the vintage forum (from a fellow Coloradan). Your 5512 unfortunately has a few issues. The bezel insert shouldn't have the red triangle��on it, the dial at minimum has been relumed, the text is off (see picture), and the hands lume is also incorrect. Sorry for the negative info. Below is a picture of a 5512 in my collection for comparison.

You are comparing apples and dump trucks. I’m not sure any of what your stated is correct. I will grant you It’s uncommon for an eagle beak to have an OCC dial (really only one example, maybe). You are comparing a case / dial combo that are roughly 4-5 years apart.

[vintagewatch]

Originally Posted by stmoore

You are comparing apples and dump trucks. I’m not sure any of what your stated is correct. I will grant you It’s uncommon for an eagle beak to have an OCC dial (really only one example, maybe). You are comparing a case / dial combo that are roughly 4-5 years apart.

Yes, the watches are 4 years apart and have different attributes, maybe apples to oranges (but not a dump truck). The picture was to show difference in the lume and the and the overall dial colors.

[Baldwin1881]

Thanks for the input. I don't consider any information as "negative" as I am not claiming that I know anything about this watch. I welcome any and all insights. I don't know if the lume is "correct" or not, but I've seen a few re-lumed dials & this one shows no sign of modification. So my question would be, is it the right dial, someone installed a later dial, "service dial" or is it an aftermarket dial? As previously stated it LOOKS & acts like tritium but the dial does not carry the T<25 logo I've seen on other dials. I can be more specific on the properties observed in the lume if anyone wants more information. I can attach more dial pictures but I need to resize them. I had a request for a case back photo so I am attaching one of those. Thank you very much for your input. It is all very helpful.

[watchcrank]

Could your dial be a very faded silver print? I have seen a similar configuration and with the red triangle insert. I seem to remember it had the 1530 rather than 1560.
Not sure I still have scans of it but will look.
Wait for a few more of the more experienced vintage fellows to have a look.

[swish77]

Perhaps the OP could post some natural-light photos. Everything seems to have a slight green tint from the odd lighting, which might be contributing to a misread on the lume (or maybe not).

[roh123]

Looks all good to me. Dial hasn’t aged perfectly but it is at least to my knowledge correct. Serial, insert etc all makes sense for an eagle beek 5512. Personally I doubt any crown guard sub has radium. They all geiger low and look more like tritium. What exact compbound is used? Who knows. But you don’t find 50’s radium on any crown guard sub.

Don’t think I ever seen a 4-line eagle before though. Interesting.

Nice watch!

[Baldwin1881]

I did spend some time staring at the dial under different light sources, wondering if it was faded yellow or silver. My conclusion was that it looked white to me, but maybe it had faded. The text on the chronometer verbiage has an odd color I've seen on another '59 example. It looks sort of gray under one light source but almost lavender under a different source.

[Baldwin1881]

I will resize & post additional dial pictures under different light sources including UV.

[Baldwin1881]

Here are a few more dial pics. Florescent, LED & UV.

[watchlovr]

Photos in natural light, but out of direct sunlight are always best.

[Kingface66]

I was always under the belief that '59 and '60 5512s were two-line dials. The four-line didn't come until '61 and were all SCOC. I'm not 100% certain, but this watch seems odd

[Baldwin1881]

Here's another under natural light.

[roh123]

Originally Posted by Kingface66

I was always under the belief that '59 and '60 5512s were two-line dials. The four-line didn't come until '61 and were all SCOC. I'm not 100% certain, but this watch seems odd

Not saying this is right but you see 4-line OCC dials during the 50’s. On both small and big crowns. The 1560 movement is also the COSCed version of 15xx.

The silver text kind of look wonky and redone. Not very sharp. Here’s a 4-line OCC small crown from -59 that I used to own for comparison.

[Kingface66]

Originally Posted by roh123

Not saying this is right but you see 4-line OCC dials during the 50’s. On both small and big crowns. The 1560 movement is also the COSCed version of 15xx.

Absolutely, especially on the 6538s, but I thought the 5512s started w two-lines in 1959

[Baldwin1881]

Here's a few more.

[roh123]

Originally Posted by Baldwin1881

Here's a few more.

Can you share macros of the silver text around SUMBARINER?

My guess is that this dial has been washed and then had the 3 lines of text added. Then the lume could have been redone as well. Texture of the dial is a bit off but that could just be aging. I do however not like the depth and OCC text. Fonts are off and it is overall very wonky. If that’s been redone it is likely the lume is redone too.

There’s people that know these watches way better than me. I just have a tough time coming over painted text which is not the gilt print itself.

[Baldwin1881]

Well, I think those are the highlights. I am happy to add pics or provide my observations of anything specific that anybody thinks is relevant. I don't have any real back ground information on where this has been. The only thing I'm told is that this was bought new, one owner. serviced at least once. At some point the watch stopped working & the owner balked at the estimate to repair & the watch spent a fair amount of time unused in a drawer.
When I received it the bezel was frozen to the case & the back was exceptionally difficult to remove. When it did release, the case back gasket crumbled into pieces & had to be carefully pried out of the groove.
I appreciate any & all insights. Thank you all very much for your time & experience.
-J

[Baldwin1881]

Can I ask what you mean by text "around SUBMARINER"? Are you referring specifically to the text above & below Submariner? Is this color supposed to be silver? Can you look at some of my earlier dial pics & tell me if they look silver to somebody knowledgeable?
I will see if I can add a few tight shots
Thank you.

[roh123]

Originally Posted by Baldwin1881

Can I ask what you mean by text "around SUBMARINER"? Are you referring specifically to the text above & below Submariner? Is this color supposed to be silver? Can you look at some of my earlier dial pics & tell me if they look silver to somebody knowledgeable?
I will see if I can add a few tight shots
Thank you.

The painted text in silver. Depth rating on top and OCC text below SUBMARINER.

[Baldwin1881]

I think this is the best shot. You can see the dial rub through the depth rating.
Is this silver in color? I just can't tell.
Thanks for your input.

[roh123]

Originally Posted by Baldwin1881

I think this is the best shot. You can see the dial rub through the depth rating.

Looks redone to me. Sorry.

[Baldwin1881]

When you hold the light just right, you can see that the 'SUBMARINER" text appears to be on a different level than the depth & chronometer text.
If the dial is redone, then hands were also. they match exactly. Is that a thing?

[roh123]

Originally Posted by Baldwin1881

When you hold the light just right, you can see that the 'SUBMARINER" text appears to be on a different level than the depth & chronometer text.

Yes. That is the gilt print. Basically the brass plate the dial is printed on. The three lines around it are painted on top of the black paint. And that text is what I believe is redone.

Happy if someone else chimes in with an opinion.

[Dan S]

Originally Posted by Baldwin1881

If the dial is redone, then hands were also. they match exactly. Is that a thing?

That's definitely a thing. Especially when they match "exactly".

[Kingface66]

Originally Posted by roh123

Yes. That is the gilt print. Basically the brass plate the dial is printed on. The three lines around it are painted on top of the black paint. And that text is what I believe is redone.

Happy if someone else chimes in with an opinion.

I agree. I can’t find another example like it. Anywhere. Some similar some sort of similar, but it just doesn’t add up.

[Baldwin1881]

I appreciate all the input. This watch was just sort of dropped into my lap. If it's just an interesting old Rolex, I will repair it & wear it proudly.
But first I just need to dismiss that one in a million chance that this is one of those "one-offs" that Billionaire collectors pay 6 figures for.
In my opinion, I don't lose either way.
Starting to sound like I'm gettin' a neat old Rolex!

[Baldwin1881]

Can anyone add anything regarding the movement? It has a number engraved in the plate. What does that tell me? Is it a production number or something related to a chronometer certification? would that number give me any insight into when it was produced? Most of the 1560 movements that I've seen pictures of have colored gears in the autowind mechanism. Do the copper colored gears mean anything?
I've been told that the 478xxx serial number between the lugs would be in the middle of the "eagle beak" run. I've seen examples of the red triangle bezels attributed to early '59 watches, while a 1560 movement seems to be something from a late '59 watch.
As I've said, I know very little about the history of this watch but I've no reason to doubt that it was owned by the same person for a very long time. All the components seem equally worn. Regarding the condition, nothing jumps out at me as being out of place. I believe that any alterations from original would have been done for the sake of repair. Does this seem like a reasonable assumption? Am I missing something?

[Baldwin1881]

Okay, I'm sensing that the verdict amongst you guys regarding my watch is: old, interesting but odd. On a side note, when I mentioned this to my wife she quickly said "that sounds like you". Gotta love her.
So if this is NOT an obscure missing link SUBMARINER that should be hermetically sealed in the private vault of some collector, I am going to go ahead and tear down & repair the movement, wear it & enjoy the heck out of my "tool watch".
I have started my second post under the "tech" section to detail this process & hopefully attract a few knowledgeable horologists who might have a few tips.
Thanks for all the input.