Much better finished the Patek, AP, VC and Lange ...

[unknown]

Might be the most interesting watch on the market today

That is of course my personal opinion but let me try to explain you why I think it is.



Yes, I'm talking about the Parmigiani Ionica.

1997-1998 and Parmiginiani was founded.
Michel Parmigiani already worked many many years in the industry and was well know to restore the most important and most complicated watches from Patek, Breguet, ...
Very often he worked for the Sandoz foundation ( family). The sandoz foundation own a very unique collection of important timepieces, automatons and clocks.

If you don't know the Sandoz foundation ... Well their most important investment is in Novartis ( Swiss pharmaceutical giant ) They own still a 3.5% stake in it which is valued at around 7 billion euro.
Novartis is on the stockmarket and it's market capilatisation is close to 200 billion euro.
The sandoz foundation also invested and owns a few famous luxury hotels in Switzerland.

Now back to the watches.
As said Parmigiani as an own brand started in 1997-1998. He worked since decades for the Sandoz foundation and I guess they decided it was time to create a top notch brand.
It would bear his name 'Parmigiani- Fleurier'
In the beginning they made only a few watches. This Ionica, the Toric, and a bit cheaper the basica.
During the next years they added ( bough) some other companies to make it a fully integrated in-house manufacture
atokalpa – Alle, December 2000
Les Artisans Boîtiers – La Chaux-de-Fonds, May 2000
Elwin – Moutier, January 2001
Vaucher Manufacture – Fleurier, 2003
Quadrance & Habillage – La Chaux-de-Fonds, December 2005
All of these above do make parts for the most well known high end brands in the industry. Forget about the bee names telling you they make everything in-house. More than one would believe is
bought from third parties.
Just one detail button of these makes the best screws you can get. And yes, many big brands use these screws.
( each of these companies mentioned above has it's own speciality , making cases, dials, and even hairsprings )

Now, concerning the Ionica which happens to be the one I like the most.
For me there was only one problem 20-25 years ago. As good as it was and as perfect finished as possible ... It was freaking expensive
I still have a Parmigiani catalog from 2001-2002 and the ionica in red gold was close to 28.000 euro, white gold 31.000 euro, platinum not mentioned but probably closer to 40.000.
To give you an idea what else you could have bought in 2000 for that price... I took one of my older 'Uhren Magazine'
It's a German magazine from 1999 or 2000.
Just let me show you 3 shots I just made










26,500 for the Ionica, 11.000 for a Patek Calatrava and 3.000 for a rolex sub no date.
I mean, thats about 2.5 times the price of a Calatrava and almost 9 times the price of a sub no date.

Take a Calatrava today or a sub no date today and multiply it ... Your Ionica must be around 70.000 euro ... for a 3 hands watch

Now ... was it too expensive or was it justified ?

Let's look at some pictures.
To be honest I have never seen a better finished movement, and probably the same can be said about the case and dial.











But now the movement
All screws black polished
Geneva stripes done by hand and among the most perfect I've ever seen
Difficult to capture on a picture, should see it irl or at least on video ( I'll upload one on my Instagram)
Splendid anglage
And those sharp inward angles ... well al I can say is .. Patek, Vacheron, AP, Lange .... Whare are your sharp inward angles ? Too difficult or too lazy ?













So let me repeat my question again...
Was the price back then too expensive ?
Probably not.

But the best part my friends ... TODAY Parmigiani is still under the radar and if you find one you can make the deal of the century smile
Forget about early Roger Dubuis Hommage, early Daniel Roth , early ... you're too late for these
But You still can get yourself a Parmigiani Ionica that is to my knowledge ever much better finished than the Hommage and Roth.
And best of all.... for a fraction of the price.
Won't last forever.
If for example 'A collected man' writes a nice review about these .. I bet they'll sell them at a few times the price you pay today.


So, if you do not agree, please show me a better finished watch (movement)
Even if you could spend 50K



And if you prefer Platinum you always have this choice

[GoingPlaces]

Very nice write up. Beautiful finishing, love those Geneva stripes.

[enjoythemusic]

Lovely timepiece, great description and passion in your review.

We all know modern Patek is far behind others. VC is ok and ALS is Richemont's prize commercial retail brand. So many great smaller producers, with some leaving PP and successfully doing great as an independent.

Support independents

[illiguy]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

Lovely timepiece, great description and passion in your review.

We all know modern Patek is far behind others. VC is ok and ALS is Richemont's prize commercial retail brand. So many great smaller producers, with some leaving PP and successfully doing great as an independent.

Support independents

I am not against your position. I would like to better understand why Richemont’s ownership in ALS should be seen as a slight against ALS. By all accounts, ALS still does things their way - which is to an excellent standard of German watchmaking.

I might re-frame and say that Richemont stake, all things being equal, will enable ALS to continue to do things their way for the very long, foreseeable future. Tell me where I am wrong.

[Brny11]

All parmesan threads make me hungry.

Sent from my Pixel 6 Pro using Tapatalk

[GoingPlaces]

Originally Posted by Brny11

All parmesan threads make me hungry.

Sent from my Pixel 6 Pro using Tapatalk

Same here, always reminds me of chicken parm!

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by illiguy

I am not against your position. I would like to better understand why Richemont’s ownership in ALS should be seen as a slight against ALS. By all accounts, ALS still does things their way - which is to an excellent standard of German watchmaking.

I might re-frame and say that Richemont stake, all things being equal, will enable ALS to continue to do things their way for the very long, foreseeable future. Tell me where I am wrong.

Huh? What the ? Hmmmm...

ALS is a cash cow for Richemont, and a key name brand they own, so they must keep the higher end models and decoration. Imho ALS is higher than PP on average. That's jmho.

At a certain price level, I'd suggest supporting independent watchmakers (pp does not count tho)..

[shafran]

My wife has a kalpa womens and I have a pantographe. Great brand

[mongrelnomoad]

Gorgeous.

I really like the new two-hand Tonda. They're definitely a watch brand for people who like watches...

[Pw92676]

Nice watch and great pics.

[Berto1]

Nice review.

[vinniebabarooch]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

Huh? What the ? Hmmmm...

ALS is a cash cow for Richemont, and a key name brand they own, so they must keep the higher end models and decoration. Imho ALS is higher than PP on average. That's jmho.

At a certain price level, I'd suggest supporting independent watchmakers (pp does not count tho)..

I don’t believe they are a cash cow at all. I think ALS would be lucky to break even for Richemont. But that’s just my opinion

[ganiccus]

Originally Posted by vinniebabarooch

I don’t believe they are a cash cow at all. I think ALS would be lucky to break even for Richemont. But that’s just my opinion

I would not say Lange is a cash cow in the Richemont group next to brands like Panerai or Cartier, but they have definitely been very profitable this year. Take a look at chrono24 on the number of Lange watches for sale made in 2021 compared to the previous years, it doesn't take a genius to see that there has been a massive dump of Saxonia and 1815 models (entry level references that are less desirable) on the secondary market. These watches have most likely been bundled with more desirable models like the Odysseus, datograph, zeitwerk and lumen watches that are trading at a premium right now.

This practice has been condemned by Watchbox as it obviously devalues the brand itself by decreasing significantly the secondary market prices of those less complicated watches. I would not be surprised one bit if Lange was instructed by Richemont to pump more Saxonia and 1815 (better profit margins if moved in bulk) and use the lure of more popular models to move them out of the ADs/boutiques. The collectors then get rid of them straight to the grey market and you end up with a glut of them at a massive discount from MSRP.

[llngoc]

They actually did not avoid internal angles unlike other brands :-)

[Justindo]

First, that's a gorgeous watch!

Parmigiani makes superbly constructed watches but I never feel as if they get their designs quite right, which is, along with poor marketing, why I think they don't sell well.

The one you posted has an exquisitely finished case, dial, hands, and movement but the date ruins it for me. It's also been said, and I agree, that their old logo, which they've moved away from, looks like the Ferrero Rocher logo. The brand name also elicits scorn, as if it's a cheese, which is unfortunate, as Michel Parmigiani is a truly great watchmaker.

I own a gold 1950 Tonda, which is a great watch in terms of finishing, but the 22mm lug width and 19mm buckle is so odd and doesn't quite work right for the watch. I purchased it new double sealed for less than a third of retail and at that price it's a steal. Still, it doesn't elicit the same feel, due to its more avant-garde design, when I put it on my wrist that my classically styled VCs, ALSs, or PPs do.

As for Richemont and other large companies, people love to dote upon and blindly romanticize independent manufacturers like PP, FPJ, AP, and Moser, which is a mistake because large companies like Richemont, Swatch, and LVMH bring a lot of value to their brands, if one can get over the romance of them not being independent, even though I think ALS and VC have a great deal of autonomy.

As for ALS or even VC or JLC, being a "cashcow" for Richemont, I doubt any of them barely more than break even for Richemont. I've heard it said that Cartier completely finances all Richemont brands and I don't doubt that at all, as my wife's Cartiers are vastly overpriced and she now much prefers her Breguets, VCs, and JLCs, now that she's gotten over the Cartier brand name that she grew up with.

[HogwldFLTR]

Very sharp watch and not familiar with the brand; looks like it's beautifully made and underprices in general.

[cfree011]

It amazes me how underappreciated the brand is in general as they make some of the most amazing watches out of all brands.

They are a fully integrated independent manufacturer with fit, finish, and technical abilities up there or beyond Patek, VC, and AP.

Sent from my IN2017 using Tapatalk

[joli160]

Independent, high quality and what more don’t matter one bit if the overall design doesn’t work.

[GB-man]

Great write up. I’m digging the new Tonda PF.