Prices for Calatrava models will increase?

[TJMike]

So in a new one; the 5212 is not really a dress watch, more of a sporty watch It is a weekly calendar watch on a leather strap. In other words it is a f'n dress watch.

[TJMike]

Oh, Russell it is a most becoming watch。Congratulations!

[Russell996]

Originally Posted by TJMike

So in a new one; the 5212 is not really a dress watch, more of a sporty watch It is a weekly calendar watch on a leather strap. In other words it is a f'n dress watch.

If there are only two watch categories - sports and dress, then yes it is dress.

I personally put ‘dress’ into a narrow category of simple 2/3 hand pieces which excludes every piece I own but then I am probably wrong.

[Russell996]

Originally Posted by TJMike

Oh, Russell it is a most becoming watch。Congratulations!

[TJMike]

Originally Posted by Russell996

If there are only two watch categories - sports and dress, then yes it is dress.

I personally put ‘dress’ into a narrow category of simple 2/3 hand pieces which excludes every piece I own but then I am probably wrong.

You are wrong

If VC, AP, or Lange released the 5212 people would not be calling it a sporty watch or some such nonsense. They would say it is a dress watch. My VC Historiques 1948 is a similar watch; it is a dress watch. Personally, I believe people are engaging in the mental gymnastics of trying to claim that the 5212 is a sporty watch is because it is popular and we all know dress watches are dead...

[Fat_ninja]

Originally Posted by Russell996

Popular is not measured in used values. Popular is measured in 'I like that piece' responses.I personally don't understand used prices at more than retail for any piece.

I don’t disagree... I’m saying we still don’t know if it’s popular.

[Russell996]

Originally Posted by Fat_ninja

I don’t disagree... I’m saying we still don’t know if it’s popular.

What is your definition of popular? AD orders are high with a long wait list. How long the waitlist remains over time will depend on production volume more than anything.
The number of PM’s I have had would suggest it is currently enjoying a modicum of popularity.

[Russell996]

Originally Posted by TJMike

You are wrong

If VC, AP, or Lange released the 5212 people would not be calling it a sporty watch or some such nonsense. They would say it is a dress watch. My VC Historiques 1948 is a similar watch; it is a dress watch. Personally, I believe people are engaging in the mental gymnastics of trying to claim that the 5212 is a sporty watch is because it is popular and we all know dress watches are dead...

My wife always says I am wrong.

[ts3]

Originally Posted by TJMike

You are wrong

If VC, AP, or Lange released the 5212 people would not be calling it a sporty watch or some such nonsense. They would say it is a dress watch. My VC Historiques 1948 is a similar watch; it is a dress watch. Personally, I believe people are engaging in the mental gymnastics of trying to claim that the 5212 is a sporty watch is because it is popular and we all know dress watches are dead...

I certainly wouldn't call the 5212 sporty if it looked like the VC Historiques 1948. The 5212's appearance is much more modern and sporty though, not least because of the typography and its calf strap w white contrast stitching. Call it what you want - in the end all that matters is that Russell et al like the piece...

[Fat_ninja]

Originally Posted by Russell996

What is your definition of popular? AD orders are high with a long wait list. How long the waitlist remains over time will depend on production volume more than anything.
The number of PM’s I have had would suggest it is currently enjoying a modicum of popularity.

I have no idea what the real wait list is. There is double counting and triple counting in the waitlist. Some of it is just made up. Unless people are fully paying for their place in the list... I’d not pay any attention to it.

My definition of Popular is if a lot of people at the end of the day want. Like I said, we won’t know until the initial rush is over. The Basel world and tours/shows are their to create demand... we will know in a few years of the demand is really there. For example you have the world time event coming up... if demand was through the roof why would a business need to spend money to do another show?

Backlogs are Fluffy and is padded. I’ve seen this time and time again in multiple businesses.


That said I like the watch but not enough to chase one down. I did chase down my Tudor tho. And I’m chasing down my RM.

[Fat_ninja]

Originally Posted by Russell996

My wife always says I am wrong.

Ur wife must know my wife

[JorgeCCW]

Originally Posted by thomaspp

The day dress watches revive, I’ll be president of the US!


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Hope I can call you Mr President one day ..LMAO



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[Russell996]

Originally Posted by Fat_ninja

I have no idea what the real wait list is. There is double counting and triple counting in the waitlist. Some of it is just made up. Unless people are fully paying for their place in the list... I’d not pay any attention to it.

My definition of Popular is if a lot of people at the end of the day want. Like I said, we won’t know until the initial rush is over. The Basel world and tours/shows are their to create demand... we will know in a few years of the demand is really there. For example you have the world time event coming up... if demand was through the roof why would a business need to spend money to do another show?

Backlogs are Fluffy and is padded. I’ve seen this time and time again in multiple businesses.


That said I like the watch but not enough to chase one down. I did chase down my Tudor tho. And I’m chasing down my RM.

It is interesting - I was with my AD yesterday to look at the 5212 and I mentioned the WT event which I am attending tomorrow. He actually said he was potentially concerned about getting any more sales from the event - they have orders for 5230’s that they simply can’t satisfy let alone 5231’s. So to answer your question, I assume it is all about brand awareness and treating clients to a day out with like minded people in a nice environment.

[GB-man]

Originally Posted by Russell996

If there are only two watch categories - sports and dress, then yes it is dress.



I personally put ‘dress’ into a narrow category of simple 2/3 hand pieces which excludes every piece I own but then I am probably wrong.

You are not wrong. A dress watch is 34-38mm time only on strap!

Unfortunately people aren’t just slow to buy dress watches but all watches on leather for whatever reason.

[Fat_ninja]

Originally Posted by Russell996

It is interesting - I was with my AD yesterday to look at the 5212 and I mentioned the WT event which I am attending tomorrow. He actually said he was potentially concerned about getting any more sales from the event - they have orders for 5230’s that they simply can’t satisfy let alone 5231’s. So to answer your question, I assume it is all about brand awareness and treating clients to a day out with like minded people in a nice environment.

Maybe you are right, it’s just opinion on my end. I’m a little more cynical here :( Not that I’m a shrewd business person but I’ve dealt with enough management teams over the past few decades to know when not to believe certain things I’m told. I also understand the process of building a backlog.


I will push back gently here... Why not host a nautilus event? Surely that could be in the the same setting?

[Russell996]

Originally Posted by Fat_ninja

I will push back gently here... Why not host a nautilus event? Surely that could be in the the same setting?

Nautilus range includes many great pieces with rightly a strong following but it doesn’t set the horological juices flowing like this piece for instance.




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[Fat_ninja]

Originally Posted by Russell996

Nautilus range includes many great pieces with rightly a strong following but it doesn’t set the horological juices flowing like this piece for instance.




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Point taken Russel. I yield lol

[zahain]

Originally Posted by Russell996

Nautilus range includes many great pieces with rightly a strong following but it doesn’t set the horological juices flowing like this piece for instance.




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Agreed. Id totally bite at this if it came in Platinum. Imo, the MR in a world time/travel watch is befitting

[Calatrava r]

Is the dress market dead. No, but it is very soft at the moment. If the sizes trend back towards 38mm we might see an upsurge but the 40 to 43 mm dress watches currently out there defeat the purpose of a dress watch.
5212A would have been better at 38 to 39 mm. I still cannot get over all the empty space in watch cases today. Too bad we cannot utilize that space for storage.

[sxdcfv]

There will always be occasion for a dress watch, so 'dead' is probably not the right word. Each of these pieces has its own aesthetic, on the wrist and on display. I get enjoyment from my casual and dress pieces.

[JR16]

Originally Posted by Russell996

Nautilus range includes many great pieces with rightly a strong following but it doesn’t set the horological juices flowing like this piece for instance.




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Wow that is mesmerizing ! Reference #? (Thanks)


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[Coop13]

Originally Posted by JorgeCCW

Hope I can call you Mr President one day ..LMAO



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Jorge, you appear to be someone who doesn't know who they are or what they truly want. I imagine you bought a couple dress watches that were "expensive" for you, and you probably couldn't afford, and then had buyers remorse and sold the watches at a loss. Now you're bitter so you proclaim "dress watches are dead" with a skull in your signature. Yet at the same time you go around posting about how you love dress watches... I think you're making these posts so you're on the "in" crowd if they ever make a "come back".

I personally like the simplicity of a dress watch and it's primarily what I'm shopping for now days, so in my mind the dress watch is not at all dead.

My final thought is this. If the dress watch is your original love and you are so excited for its "return", AND they're dead which results in lower second hand prices... why don't you just buy a dress watch???? Wouldn't this be the perfect time and situation to buy and or collect these watches? Stop waiting for their return because it's not going to happen because they never left.

[kaiserphoenix]

The 5212 is NOT a simple calatrava, it as a weekly calendar, date of the week, and the actual date as well.

[Vipes]

Originally Posted by Fat_ninja

I have no idea what the real wait list is. There is double counting and triple counting in the waitlist. Some of it is just made up. Unless people are fully paying for their place in the list... I’d not pay any attention to it.

My definition of Popular is if a lot of people at the end of the day want. Like I said, we won’t know until the initial rush is over. The Basel world and tours/shows are their to create demand... we will know in a few years of the demand is really there. For example you have the world time event coming up... if demand was through the roof why would a business need to spend money to do another show?

Backlogs are Fluffy and is padded. I’ve seen this time and time again in multiple businesses.


That said I like the watch but not enough to chase one down. I did chase down my Tudor tho. And I’m chasing down my RM.

I agree, have to wait till the initial rush is over. I remember how popular the 5524 and 5235 were and look at them now. I still like the 5212 and think it's a cool watch.

[JorgeCCW]

Originally Posted by Coop13

Jorge, you appear to be someone who doesn't know who they are or what they truly want. I imagine you bought a couple dress watches that were "expensive" for you, and you probably couldn't afford, and then had buyers remorse and sold the watches at a loss. Now you're bitter so you proclaim "dress watches are dead" with a skull in your signature. Yet at the same time you go around posting about how you love dress watches... I think you're making these posts so you're on the "in" crowd if they ever make a "come back".

I personally like the simplicity of a dress watch and it's primarily what I'm shopping for now days, so in my mind the dress watch is not at all dead.

My final thought is this. If the dress watch is your original love and you are so excited for its "return", AND they're dead which results in lower second hand prices... why don't you just buy a dress watch???? Wouldn't this be the perfect time and situation to buy and or collect these watches? Stop waiting for their return because it's not going to happen because they never left.

Bro I have bought so many strap watch pateks watches over the years , 5146g, 5146p, 5960p, 5205R, 5524G , 5905p etc...
And you come to post saying that I am bitter , that I can’t afford them and that I don’t know a thing about watches , really ?
I guess I just come to a conclusion that the market of the strap/dress watches is slim and if you sell they want to give you peanuts. I am not rich/millionaire so yeah hell no , I don’t want a lose an arm and leg with watches. So forgive me if I am careful. That doesn’t mean that I don’t love those watches , is just a rough time for dress watches,
Gosh , thanks for your productive comment
I really don’t know why did I even bother replying to your post , but I won’t entertain your posts. This is my only response to you .



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[Bearxj86]

Originally Posted by Coop13

Jorge, you appear to be someone who doesn't know who they are or what they truly want. I imagine you bought a couple dress watches that were "expensive" for you, and you probably couldn't afford, and then had buyers remorse and sold the watches at a loss. Now you're bitter so you proclaim "dress watches are dead" with a skull in your signature. Yet at the same time you go around posting about how you love dress watches... I think you're making these posts so you're on the "in" crowd if they ever make a "come back".

I personally like the simplicity of a dress watch and it's primarily what I'm shopping for now days, so in my mind the dress watch is not at all dead.

My final thought is this. If the dress watch is your original love and you are so excited for its "return", AND they're dead which results in lower second hand prices... why don't you just buy a dress watch???? Wouldn't this be the perfect time and situation to buy and or collect these watches? Stop waiting for their return because it's not going to happen because they never left.

Coop - Jorge is such a deep thinker and has experienced so many dress watches that I actually go back to his 5 year old and still running thread to see how his collection has evolved.

See thread: https://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=368299

I think it is a mistake to downplay his opinion.

That said, when we say "dress watch is dead", I think it is for the majority of wrist watch owners. At the same time, Patek has never catered to the majority. I for one have both - that is the beauty of choice. Today some people say the car is dead and the suit is dead :) I think the dead aspect relates primarily to the value retention of most of them being not as good as the SS sports. So therefore if you want a dress watch, buy at the right price knowing it would be a PITA if you need to sell. With a Rolex or sports steel watch from the holy trinitiy? You can even get same day cash.

[goog53]

Originally Posted by Coop13

Jorge, you appear to be someone who doesn't know who they are or what they truly want. I imagine you bought a couple dress watches that were "expensive" for you, and you probably couldn't afford, and then had buyers remorse and sold the watches at a loss. Now you're bitter so you proclaim "dress watches are dead" with a skull in your signature. Yet at the same time you go around posting about how you love dress watches... I think you're making these posts so you're on the "in" crowd if they ever make a "come back".

I personally like the simplicity of a dress watch and it's primarily what I'm shopping for now days, so in my mind the dress watch is not at all dead.

My final thought is this. If the dress watch is your original love and you are so excited for its "return", AND they're dead which results in lower second hand prices... why don't you just buy a dress watch???? Wouldn't this be the perfect time and situation to buy and or collect these watches? Stop waiting for their return because it's not going to happen because they never left.

No point in acknowledging this clown Jorge. He is out of line and should stay over in the Seiko forum where he apparently is King

[Bearxj86]

Originally Posted by goog53

No point in acknowledging this clown Jorge. He is out of line and should stay over in the Seiko forum where he apparently is King

Hey! Be nice to the servants; or they might spit in the food ;p

I kid I kid

While we're on the topic of Seikos I am excited to go down and pick up my SBGA 415 "Winter" Grand Seiko today and check out the other 3 at my AD. People are really loving the pink 413 so maybe I might get that too or make a last minute swap decision.

[Coop13]

Sounds good to me.


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[Coop13]

Originally Posted by JorgeCCW

Bro I have bought so many strap watch pateks watches over the years , 5146g, 5146p, 5960p, 5205R, 5524G , 5905p etc...
And you come to post saying that I am bitter , that I can’t afford them and that I don’t know a thing about watches , really ?
I guess I just come to a conclusion that the market of the strap/dress watches is slim and if you sell they want to give you peanuts. I am not rich/millionaire so yeah hell no , I don’t want a lose an arm and leg with watches. So forgive me if I am careful. That doesn’t mean that I don’t love those watches , is just a rough time for dress watches,
Gosh , thanks for your productive comment
I really don’t know why did I even bother replying to your post , but I won’t entertain your posts. This is my only response to you .



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No offense intended Jorge. Perhaps someone pissed in my cheerios this morning and I was easily offended by your comment about dress watches. Excuse me.


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