What price for Zambian GMT?

[Kennekam]

I have the opportunity to buy a GMT Master from a deceased estate. the previous owner used it while working on mines in Zambia.

It is a 1675 with a serial number starting with 16374xx. The date in the case back is 11/67. The bracelet is a generic after market. The watch runs intermittently and the crown does not screw in. There is a speck of lume off the minute hand. It looks like someone used a screwdriver to open the caseback. There are no papers.

As a newbie to the Rolex world, I would like some help with the following:

What should I pay for the watch?
What bracelet should I get for the watch?
How far should I go with the restoration of the watch?

As a newbie, I am considering whether I should just wear the watch or sell it and put the money towards a newer one.

[pdoukas]

Insert may be a service replacement. Dial is MK1. But is that a small GMT hand? Just real quick observations on my cell phone.

[GeoGio Greece]

Looks like a small GMT. But in a '67 watch ? I am no expert but this is also a '67 watch, and has a big GMT. Am I wrong ?

[Kennekam]

Originally Posted by pdoukas

Insert may be a service replacement. Dial is MK1. But is that a small GMT hand? Just real quick observations on my cell phone.

Yes it does have the small hand.
Actually the insert is quite faded. Here is another view:

[springer]

Every now-and-then you'll find an original, small, 24-hour hand on a circa 1967 GMT 1675.

[Kennekam]

Originally Posted by GeoGio Greece

Looks like a small GMT. But in a '67 watch ? I am no expert but this is also a '67 watch, and has a big GMT. Am I wrong ?

1967 is when the switch from gloss to matte dial took place. There were some of the newer matte dials sold with smaller GMT hand. Quite common.

[iclick]

Originally Posted by Kennekam

What should I pay for the watch?

First, I would budget a full service ($400-600 + parts) into the cost of the watch, performed by one of the vintage specialists often mentioned here (Rikki, ABC, Vanessa, or Bob). I would want to take a look at the movement for any signs of problems like water seepage, so there are questions before I would want to snatch this one up. You'd need to make an estimate of restoration costs and add these to the initial cost, then comparing that with an estimated value. Decent examples have been going for $5500-6000 on Ebay, and one very nice one sold recently for $7800.

What bracelet should I get for the watch?

Some would disagree, but if the present band looks sturdy and you plan on wearing the watch I would keep it, as it looks close enough to an Oyster. For resale you might consider buying a vintage band or a modern Oyster. The current band for my 1675 is ca. 1985 Oyster Flip-Lock and I have no emotional problem having it on my otherwise very original GMT. I also have a non-Rolex band that's identical to the Oyster, sans Rolex logo on clasp and part numbers on band, and was told by an AD watchmaker that it's made by the same company. Yours may be likewise. Also, remember that a worn band can be restored for a reasonable price by Michael Young in Hong Kong, so if you find a worn vintage band there is recourse.

How far should I go with the restoration of the watch?

How much to you love it and how much is your bottom line worth to you should you sell it? I would hope the case back could be restored, as buying a replacement could be expensive and would likely devalue the watch without the date stamp on the inside. Bezel insert isn't original but you could source a decent faded fat-font example given some time and effort. It's possible the lume on the minute hand could be restored by one of these vintage experts.

[Kennekam]

Thanks for the inputs. Any idea on how much I should be paying for the watch?

If I took the watch to the local RSC, they will simply replace the bezel insert, dial and hands with new service parts. And keep the old ones.

I have spoken to a very reputable watchmaker who used to service Rolex and now is the local service center for Omega and other premium brands. He has serviced many of my watches and is more sympathetic towards collectors. We discussed two strategies:

1. Service the watch as an RSC would do replacing the glass, dial, hands, crown and tube, but preserve the old parts. Apparently he can get tritium hands and dials. Retain the faded bezel insert or replace with new one and save the old one. The case does not need much of a polish although the case back does. This strategy gives me the opportunity to refit the old parts if I want to. I will now wear the watch.

2. Simply get the watch running. Tidy up the case and polish the glass. Try to get an original folded bracelet (78360/280 or 580). And then sell the watch to fund a newer GMT II or Sub 116610 as I am not into the vintage look.

Option 1 will obviously cost me more than option 2. I am quoted $1000 for option 1 and $600 for option 2 without the bracelet. But investment wise, which would be the better option?

What could I sell the watch for if I followed either of the two strategies?

[Kennekam]

Originally Posted by iclick

First, I would budget a full service ($400-600 + parts) into the cost of the watch, performed by one of the vintage specialists often mentioned here (Rikki, ABC, Vanessa, or Bob). I would want to take a look at the movement for any signs of problems like water seepage, so there are questions before I would want to snatch this one up. You'd need to make an estimate of restoration costs and add these to the initial cost, then comparing that with an estimated value. Decent examples have been going for $5500-6000 on Ebay, and one very nice one sold recently for $7800.



Some would disagree, but if the present band looks sturdy and you plan on wearing the watch I would keep it, as it looks close enough to an Oyster. For resale you might consider buying a vintage band or a modern Oyster. The current band for my 1675 is ca. 1985 Oyster Flip-Lock and I have no emotional problem having it on my otherwise very original GMT. I also have a non-Rolex band that's identical to the Oyster, sans Rolex logo on clasp and part numbers on band, and was told by an AD watchmaker that it's made by the same company. Yours may be likewise. Also, remember that a worn band can be restored for a reasonable price by Michael Young in Hong Kong, so if you find a worn vintage band there is recourse.



How much to you love it and how much is your bottom line worth to you should you sell it? I would hope the case back could be restored, as buying a replacement could be expensive and would likely devalue the watch without the date stamp on the inside. Bezel insert isn't original but you could source a decent faded fat-font example given some time and effort. It's possible the lume on the minute hand could be restored by one of these vintage experts.

Thanks for the input. Your response came through as I typed another comment on this thread regarding two strategies I am looking at.

I find the generic bracelet seems better made than the original. It does not rattle so much.

One of the problems I have is that the dynamics of collecting and watch restoration are somewhat different here in South Africa. Things tend to cost a lot more and tend to get lost in transit.

I think the seller will take $1000 for the watch. Does that seem reasonable?

[Paul]

A timely reminder of the pitfalls associated with after-market bracelets - they are prone to failure.
A particularly weak point is associated with the variants that have the screw-pins that allow you to take off a link or two.
Cos those pins fall-out and your watch falls off - simple as that

I would never trust a Rolex on a $40 bracelet unless I'd done strategic work with Loctite first.
Would be a sad day if someone lost a Rolex cos. a budget bracelet failed.


Otherwise, that's a nice watch you are considering - certainly looks like an honest example to me.
Nice that it's served time as a real tool watch too

[southtexas]

Yes I would say $1000 usd seems reasonable. If you buy it, I'll double your money same day;)

[Old Expat Beast]

RSC won't change anthing other than movement parts (including date wheel) unless you agree to (pay for) it. They may strongly recommend, but as long as they are original to the watch, you can decline any part changes.

[QueueCumber]

Originally Posted by Kennekam

I have the opportunity to buy a GMT Master from a deceased estate. the previous owner used it while working on mines in Zambia.

...

What should I pay for the watch?

...

It depends. Did he die of Ebola?

I wouldn't buy anything from over there right now...

[Kennekam]

Originally Posted by QueueCumber

It depends. Did he die of Ebola?

I wouldn't buy anything from over there right now...

The gentleman died of old age in Cape Town a year ago.

Ebola is more of a problem in certain countries in West Africa than East Africa. And Ebola is transmitted by the exchange of bodily fluids.

[omitohud]

Originally Posted by Kennekam

Thanks for the input. Your response came through as I typed another comment on this thread regarding two strategies I am looking at.



I find the generic bracelet seems better made than the original. It does not rattle so much.



One of the problems I have is that the dynamics of collecting and watch restoration are somewhat different here in South Africa. Things tend to cost a lot more and tend to get lost in transit.



I think the seller will take $1000 for the watch. Does that seem reasonable?

For that kind of money I would jump on it. Even after all the finances to restore it, you would still come up on top.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[The_Walrus]

$1000 usd sounds very fair

[1675-David]

1000US is more than very fair it's a steal and the seller obviously has no idea what they are selling. From what i can see the case and dial look very nice, and after a service and new crystal you will have a great example of a classic reference with the added bonus of that lovley small 24hr hand, which in itself is worth several hundred dollars.

[iclick]

First, $1000US is a steal. Buy it!

Originally Posted by Kennekam

If I took the watch to the local RSC, they will simply replace the bezel insert, dial and hands with new service parts. And keep the old ones.

I personally wouldn't send any vintage watch to RSC.

1. Service the watch as an RSC would do replacing the glass, dial, hands, crown and tube, but preserve the old parts. Apparently he can get tritium hands and dials. Retain the faded bezel insert or replace with new one and save the old one. The case does not need much of a polish although the case back does. This strategy gives me the opportunity to refit the old parts if I want to. I will now wear the watch.

2. Simply get the watch running. Tidy up the case and polish the glass. Try to get an original folded bracelet (78360/280 or 580). And then sell the watch to fund a newer GMT II or Sub 116610 as I am not into the vintage look.

Option 1 will obviously cost me more than option 2. I am quoted $1000 for option 1 and $600 for option 2 without the bracelet. But investment wise, which would be the better option?

Investment-wise I believe you would be devaluing the watch by replacing the dial and hands as listed in Option 1, assuming he is quoting you for service replacements. OTOH, the crystal, tube, and crown are normal maintenance items and would be okay, IMO.

An Option 3 might be to go with Option 2, keep the watch, and wear it. If the watchmaker is doing a full service on the movement there wouldn't be any reason not to wear it like you would a more modern one.

What could I sell the watch for if I followed either of the two strategies?

My hunch is that Option 2 would yield a better result for resale value. A collector will value that Mk1 dial and may not wince at the flawed hands. I would try to resuscitate the damaged case back, though, and think you could justify a heavy polish job on it in that effort--but I wouldn't replace it with a new one with no date stamp. I would probably leave the case alone, or perhaps have the watchmaker do a very minor, non-invasive clean-up making sure the bevels stay intact.

I'm not sure what to suggest on the band for resale purposes, but shopping for a used band, either a more modern Oyster or a period-correct part, might be worthwhile. If you'll be keeping the watch and the aftermarket band looks sturdy I would just use it. The original slotted bands weren't very robust, so I wouldn't go that route if you plan on wearing it for the long term. That would be a resale-only option, IMO. If you would feel better about a Rolex band, buy a used one at a good price and send it to Michael Young for restoration.