Rolex 16610 |5 Min Tick spread across ''swiss made'' Dial vs 3 min | 2007 >

[Coolhandluke17]

Hi Guys,
I'm new to these forums so your opinions and clinical advice is appreciated. I recently purchased a Rolex 16610 M series Submariner which I'm thrilled with to say the least!

A few potential concerns forced me to post to this forum and I would like your direct feedback about my watch purchased if real, franken or fake?

On doing my background research before purchasing the said piece, I paid particular attention to dials, movements, caseback and bracelets and followed all the basic routes on selecting what i hope is a genuine timepiece.

• 1. On receiving the watch - there was no etched rolex logo on the crystal at 6 O'Clock and it was a M series with engraved rehaut. this is mandatory right? or a crystal replacement?

• 2.''Swiss Made''
• Where Swiss made is written at 6 o'clock on the dial- it spreads across 5 mins markers as opposed to a closed 3min tick.

The only spread accross 5 min tick marker i can locate on doing research is the MAXI dial LV (16610LV). Is this right?

Did rolex release this dial with 16610 standard m series and up or is it a franken, rebuilt maxi dial, fake or genuine?

I await your response.

I went to an authorized dealer and they said it was genuine but it still has me posting it here as i have not seen any like mine with a similar dial from the same year!

[superstarmar]

Where did you buy it from and how much did you pay?
Before pulling the trigger on a several $$$k watch I’d most
certainly be sure I bought the seller more
than the actual watch !!!
Always buy the seller first ... I learned this lesson myself
awhile back the hard way ...

If there are ever any issues with the watch the reputable seller
will almost always 100% make it righf... Joe Shmoe?
Yeah, not so much ...

[Coolhandluke17]

thanks for your prompt reply.

Is the dial an issue in your experience, should there be a need for concern rather than posting where i purchased it from.

I paid approx 5700 euro's with box and papers.

Kind Regards

[superstarmar]

Originally Posted by Coolhandluke17

thanks for your prompt reply.

Is the dial an issue in your experience, should there be a need for concern rather than posting where i purchased it from.

I paid approx 5700 euro's with box and papers.

Kind Regards

Let’s see what some of the other long time members say ...

[Stevec14]

That dial only came with the 16610LV (maxi). Not the 16610LN. One of two possibilities I guess. It’s a LN with a dial swap, or you got lucky and got a LV with an incorrect bezel in it for a good price. The hands look like they have either been swapped or are from the LV also.

A trip to Rolex would answer the question. Get a service quote and they will tell you. If I had to guess, I think you may have a LV with a black bezel insert.

[superstarmar]

Originally Posted by Stevec14

That dial only came with the 16610LV (maxi). Not the 16610LN. One of two possibilities I guess. It’s a LN with a dial swap, or you got lucky and got a LV with an incorrect bezel in it for a good price. The hands look like they have either been swapped or are from the LV also.

A trip to Rolex would answer the question. Get a service quote and they will tell you. If I had to guess, I think you may have a LV with a black bezel insert.

Just found an ad posted by Jacek. An LV from 2003 F serial
with flat 4 bezel insert and same Dial as OP’s...

https://www.rolexforums.com/showthre...hlight=16610lv

Link to ad ...

[Coolhandluke17]

Originally Posted by Stevec14

That dial only came with the 16610LV (maxi). Not the 16610LN. One of two possibilities I guess. It’s a LN with a dial swap, or you got lucky and got a LV with an incorrect bezel in it for a good price. The hands look like they have either been swapped or are from the LV also.

A trip to Rolex would answer the question. Get a service quote and they will tell you. If I had to guess, I think you may have a LV with a black bezel insert.

Hi,

hmmm interesting. Thanks for your input and feedback. An LV with an incorrect bezel? is that even possible with Rolex?

When you mention the hands, what do you mean???

But surely, an LV with a black bezel insert, and correct me if im wrong should that not have a maxi dial to match it?

and if it was an LV with a black bezel insert, the box and papers and serial number behind the lugs and on rehaut all match and were verified by an Authorized Rolex Dealer.

How can that be right? Could that have come from the factory or is it a franken....possibility?

[PRSWILL]

The crown is too close to the 12 position, the "Swiss Made" spacing is off, Should be just inside 5 clicks- and the laser etched crown should be there on that crystal- looks like a newer model with ROLEX lettering inside the watch. I would be suspicious.

[Stevec14]

Originally Posted by Coolhandluke17

Hi,



hmmm interesting. Thanks for your input and feedback. An LV with an incorrect bezel? is that even possible with Rolex?



When you mention the hands, what do you mean???



But surely, an LV with a black bezel insert, and correct me if im wrong should that not have a maxi dial to match it?



and if it was an LV with a black bezel insert, the box and papers and serial number behind the lugs and on rehaut all match and were verified by an Authorized Rolex Dealer.



How can that be right? Could that have come from the factory or is it a franken....possibility?

For sure it’s possible. You can change the bezel insert yourself. I’m not saying it has happened, but it strikes me that to swap a maxi dial and hands into a LN would be quite a lot of money - the hands are thicker on the LV than the LN (have a look on the net).

It’s quite possible the box and papers and Rehaut all match. I doubt it came from the factory like that however.

What model number does it say on the paperwork?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Stevec14]

Originally Posted by PRSWILL

The crown is too close to the 12 position, the "Swiss Made" spacing is off, Should be just inside 5 clicks- and the laser etched crown should be there on that crystal- looks like a newer model with ROLEX lettering inside the watch. I would be suspicious.

It looks the same as my legit one. What is odd is that it looks like a mk1 dial in a m serial watch.

It’s odd - but I think we need more info from the op first.





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Stevec14]

Originally Posted by Stevec14

It looks the same as my legit one. What is odd is that it looks like a mk1 dial in a m serial watch.

It’s odd - but I think we need more info from the op first.





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

On second look, I think the hands look like from the LN. I think it’s a dial swap.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Coolhandluke17]

Originally Posted by Stevec14

For sure it’s possible. You can change the bezel insert yourself. I’m not saying it has happened, but it strikes me that to swap a maxi dial and hands into a LN would be quite a lot of money - the hands are thicker on the LV than the LN (have a look on the net).

It’s quite possible the box and papers and Rehaut all match. I doubt it came from the factory like that however.

What model number does it say on the paperwork?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Its an M Series. The dial is clearly not a maxi d. on my watch.
(but it strikes me that to swap a maxi dial and hands into a LN would be quite a lot of money - the hands are thicker on the LV than the LN (have a look on the net).) Agreed....im aware you can change the bezel inserts with genuine and oem.

Judging by the above pic - the hands are from an LV maxi dial? is that what you mean?

[PRSWILL]

Here's mine- it's a 2016 Ceramic Bezel Random Serial. The crown on mine is a little further from the 12 position and the script is tighty inside 5 clicks.

[Coolhandluke17]

Originally Posted by Stevec14

On second look, I think the hands look like from the LN. I think it’s a dial swap.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Heres another pic in different lighting.

[Coolhandluke17]

heres a another pic with different lighting angle

[Coolhandluke17]

[QUOTE=Stevec14;8351476]It looks the same as my legit one. What is odd is that it looks like a mk1 dial in a m serial watch.

It’s odd - but I think we need more info from the op first.


Nice watch. Green bezel and maxi dial really sets it off! Congrats!

[PRSWILL]

Do you know what year the watch is?

[Coolhandluke17]

Originally Posted by PRSWILL

Do you know what year the watch is?

its a 2008 m series

[PRSWILL]

I'd agree with this then...

[QUOTE=Stevec14;8351476]It looks the same as my legit one. What is odd is that it looks like a mk1 dial in a m serial watch.

[Coolhandluke17]

Originally Posted by Stevec14

On second look, I think the hands look like from the LN. I think it’s a dial swap.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

ok a dial swap right, but not the original year / MK dial for this particular 16610 model, right?

[PRSWILL]

Does it glow Blue or Green?

[Coolhandluke17]

Originally Posted by PRSWILL

Does it glow Blue or Green?

Green

[henrylee]

It looks to me that its only a dial change. From the photos the hands don't look like the bigger LV hands. I would be concern for franken at this point as it may have aftermarket parts. Best to get it check out professionally. Best of luck to you~

[Coolhandluke17]

Originally Posted by Stevec14

On second look, I think the hands look like from the LN. I think it’s a dial swap.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Ok noted. So it's an older sub dial in an m series later model. Dial looks legit though or a diamond in the rough dial gem by rolex themselves. Or oem?

[PRSWILL]

May not be an issue but.... 2008 was a transition year:
At first I like to start with the overview of the approximate date of luminous used by the Rolex Company:

Prior – 1953, The early age of Rolex luminous, used on their pocket watches, early oyster cases, bubble backs and radiomir Panerai’s.
1953 – 1956, When Rolex introduced the world their sports / utility / tool watch concept with radium Submariner, TOG, Explorer & GMT Master.
1957 – 1960, When Rolex lowered radiation and chanced dial printing from 1 to 2 colored print and enhanced the lacquer to a more glossy variant.
1960 – 1963, The pre ‘Transitional” period with “Exclamation” mark and due to the starting international regulation, again less radioactive luminous.
1963 – 1964, “Transitional” underline of which Rolex switched from Radium to Trtium, delivered dials are “swiss” signed but laminated with tritium.
1964 – 1967, The new generation tritium luminous got added on glossy dials, signing chanced from “Swiss” to “Swiss – T<25” & “T-Swiss-T”.
1967 – 1983, The matte dial with tritium luminous got introduced by Rolex. We see tritium signings variations like T Swiss T<25 or σ T-Swiss-T σ.
1983 – 1997, The last era of the tritium dials when the glossy dial surface came back, now the luminous was added in a added white gold surround.
1998- 2000, LumiNova was invented in 1993 and patented in 1995; Nemoto & Co. Ltd. was contracted in 1998 to provide LumiNova to Switzerland.
2000 – 2008, Super Luminova, a improved version of Luminova, a material that has the same properties as tritium but is not radioactive.
2008 – now, Chroma Light, the new blue-ish colored Super Luminova thats been in use since Rolex patented it.

[Coolhandluke17]

Hmm interesting: The good old LV Sub was around for 7 years and in that time there were 8 different dial variations.
I love these subtle changes by Rolex.
Makes the watches more interesting and also makes them harder to fake correctly.

Here is the different dial variations of the Green Sub:


Mark 1, Oval 'O', 'R' in 'Oyster' aligned with gap between left and right feet of 'R' in 'Rolex', '5 Ticks', Flat 4 (2003 Issue Models ONLY), From Y966xxx 19 September 2003 To F068XXX November 2003
Mark 1, Oval 'O', 'R' in 'Oyster' aligned with gap between left and right feet of 'R' in 'Rolex', '5 Ticks', Flat 4 (2004 Onwards) From F100000/F110000??? F Serial Late October 2004 To ???????

Mark 2, Oval 'O', 'R' in 'Oyster' aligned with gap between left and right feet of 'R' in 'Rolex', '5 Ticks', Pointed 4, From ??????? To F78XXXX 23 February 2005/F730XXX April 2005/F8XXXXX

Mark 3, Oval 'O', 'R' in 'Oyster' located under right foot of 'R' in 'Rolex', '3 Ticks', Flat 4, From F Serial To DXXX440 2005

Mark 4, Oval 'O', 'R' in 'Oyster' located under right foot of 'R 'in 'Rolex', '3 Ticks', Pointed 4, From D090842 July 2005 To D361XXX 2005

Mark 5, Round 'O', 'R' in 'Oyster' aligned with end of left foot of 'R' in 'Rolex', '3 Ticks', Pointed 4, From D Serial Early December 2005 To ???????

Mark 6, Round 'O', 'R' in 'Oyster' aligned with end of left foot of 'R' in 'Rolex', 'Between 28 & 32 Mins', Pointed 4, From D358XXX December 2005 To Z261804 22 December 2006

Mark 7, Round 'O', 'R' in 'Oyster' aligned with end of left foot of 'R' in 'Rolex', 'Between 28 & 32 Mins', Pointed 4, Serial number On Inner Rehaut, From M Serial August 2008 To ???????

Mark 8, Oval 'O', 'R' in 'Oyster' located under right foot of 'R' in 'Rolex', '3 Ticks', Pointed 4, Serial number On Inner Rehaut, From M08332X Serial 2008 To ???????


Dial font attributes:

It appears there is a correlation between dial font and layout depending on the 'set' used. By set I make reference to the following possible dial combinations ;

a) If the 'O' in the word 'Rolex' is oval (also referred to as 'squashed' or 'wide mouthed') then the positioning of the text 'Swiss Made' is only seen in either '5 tick' OR '3 tick' dials. If the dial is of a '5 tick' type then the 'R' in the word 'Oyster' will ALWAYS align with the gap between the left and right feet of the 'R' in the word 'Rolex'. If a '3 tick' dial type then the 'R' in the word 'Oyster' will ALWAYS locate under the right foot of the 'R' in the word 'Rolex'.

b) If the 'O' in the word 'Rolex' is of standard font (also referred to as 'normal' or 'round') then the positioning of the text 'Swiss Made' is only seen in either '3 tick' dial OR 'Between 28 and 32 minutes' dials. In both cases the 'R' in the word 'Oyster' will ALWAYS align with the end of the left foot of the 'R' in the word 'Rolex'

[crazymcmichael]

Best Luck for you
Sucks big time(
Contacted the seller allready?

[Stevec14]

Originally Posted by Coolhandluke17

Ok noted. So it's an older sub dial in an m series later model. Dial looks legit though or a diamond in the rough dial gem by rolex themselves. Or oem?

Dial looks ok to me. I’m no expert however.

[freefly]

Originally Posted by Coolhandluke17

1. On receiving the watch - there was no etched rolex logo on the crystal at 6 O'Clock and it was a M series with engraved rehaut. this is mandatory right? or a crystal replacement?

Yes, the LEC should be present if the crystal is original/OEM. They can be hard to spot without the right lighting/angle. Try shining a bright flashlight at the crystal edge, 90-degrees to the watch face (harsh side lighting).

Originally Posted by Coolhandluke17

2.''Swiss Made''
Where Swiss made is written at 6 o'clock on the dial- it spreads across 5 mins markers as opposed to a closed 3min tick.

A 5-tick dial on a late-model non-LV 16610 is certainly less common, but they are out there.

[freefly]

Originally Posted by Stevec14

That dial only came with the 16610LV (maxi). Not the 16610LN. One of two possibilities I guess. It’s a LN with a dial swap, or you got lucky and got a LV with an incorrect bezel in it for a good price. The hands look like they have either been swapped or are from the LV also.

No.

The dial and hands on the OP's watch are clearly normal LN pieces, not LV (Maxi) pieces. The hour plots on LV/Maxi dials are noticeably larger, as is the minute hand.