Where did all the experts go?

[bigfatpauli]

Hello,

Years ago, this forum used to be flooded with really interesting, esoteric knowledge of Rolex shared by people who really knew their stuff. The first time I heard about a "Bart Simpson" cornet was here. The first time I started learning about the stop-start history of the Daytona was on here, etc.

But now it is primarily a mix of "how do I get a Rolex" (universally, go grey) or "is this Rolex over-polished" (universally, yes) or "is this a good deal" (universally, I wouldn't) with a few incomings mixed in...

Where did all the experts go? Where did all the amazing information posts go?

The other day we had one of said posts - about Rolex hands not being in-house. It felt like half the replies where, "why are you posting this?" so I believe the culture has fundamentally shifted away from knowledge based posts.

So I ask, where did all the education go?

-Paul

[Dsmith1974]

Originally Posted by bigfatpauli

Hello,



Years ago, this forum used to be flooded with really interesting, esoteric knowledge of Rolex shared by people who really knew their stuff. The first time I heard about a "Bart Simpson" cornet was here. The first time I started learning about the stop-start history of the Daytona was on here, etc.



But now it is primarily a mix of "how do I get a Rolex" (universally, go grey) or "is this Rolex over-polished" (universally, yes) or "is this a good deal" (universally, I wouldn't) with a few incomings mixed in...



Where did all the experts go? Where did all the amazing information posts go?



The other day we had one of said posts - about Rolex hands not being in-house. It felt like half the replies where, "why are you posting this?" so I believe the culture has fundamentally shifted away from knowledge based posts.



So I ask, where did all the education go?



-Paul

There’s still content based posts with movements being dis-assembled and I often learn something new and interesting. I can’t say what it was like five years ago and there’s probably more noise now. Then again there are many new owners and not all are necessarily interested in watches beyond an investment or statement.

Does TRF have significantly more members now than five years ago?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[brandrea]

Originally Posted by bigfatpauli

Hello,

Years ago, this forum used to be flooded with really interesting, esoteric knowledge of Rolex shared by people who really knew their stuff. The first time I heard about a "Bart Simpson" cornet was here. The first time I started learning about the stop-start history of the Daytona was on here, etc.

But now it is primarily a mix of "how do I get a Rolex" (universally, go grey) or "is this Rolex over-polished" (universally, yes) or "is this a good deal" (universally, I wouldn't) with a few incomings mixed in...

Where did all the experts go? Where did all the amazing information posts go?

The other day we had one of said posts - about Rolex hands not being in-house. It felt like half the replies where, "why are you posting this?" so I believe the culture has fundamentally shifted away from knowledge based posts.

So I ask, where did all the education go?

-Paul

Things change for the better and sometimes for the worse. The forum has changed. I agree those members and the knowledge they share are sorely missed here.

[Tomas Eriksson]

The demographic has changed over time... That is the curse of watches become mainstream. What you are asking is still being discussed, on this forum to a smaller extent than before but there are still forums where collectors and entusiasts primarily have those discussions.

[HL65]

Originally Posted by brandrea

Things change for the better and sometimes for the worse. The forum has changed. I agree those members and the knowledge they share are sorely missed here.

OP only here for 2 years and last 2 years has been mostly bitching about shortages, grey dealers, nicknames, valuations etc. I remember when Forum was purely Rolex enthusiasts for most part. A lot of focus was in vintage as well so yes things do change. It would be nice to shift back and away from the same thread topics over and over again.

[brandrea]

Originally Posted by HL65

OP only here for 2 years and last 2 years has been mostly bitching about shortages, grey dealers, nicknames, valuations etc. I remember when Forum was purely Rolex enthusiasts for most part. A lot of focus was in vintage as well so yes things do change. It would be nice to shift back and away from the same thread topics over and over again.

can we bring back Mon

[2001jesper]

Vintage forum

[Roll the Lex]

Originally Posted by bigfatpauli

Where did all the amazing information posts go?

Use the search feature on the forums.

But seriously, I think it's just how the market changed. With the rise of Hodinkee/growing popularity of watches, the ability to show off online, a thriving economy, and most importantly booming valuations- Daytona, SS Pepsi, Hulk, etc- this is what you get. And let's not forget that despite the fact that Rolex makes very good watches, their marketing machine excels at promoting the brand as the ultimate status symbol.

The other thing is that Rolex models evolve at a very slow rate. So you can tear apart and analyze a movement and it's going to stay the same for several years.

To your average watch buyer most are going to be interested in learning which models you can flip it for 2x profit vs. the history of the movement.

[THC]

As long as we have Bas, Jocke, and Paul, I am in for the long haul

[chloebear]

I absolutely see your point. I think the super smart enthusiasts are still on here, but perhaps a bit drowned out. But there are a good number of great guys I count on for sage advice and esoteric knowledge that still make it the best place on the internet.

It's definitely the most gentlemanly place on the internet.

[TswaneNguni]

What I know about Rolex ,I was taught on TRF .

[chloebear]

Originally Posted by TswaneNguni

What I know about Rolex ,I was taught on TRF .

Well said. I completely agree.

[bigfatpauli]

Originally Posted by HL65

OP only here for 2 years and last 2 years has been mostly bitching about shortages, grey dealers, nicknames, valuations etc. I remember when Forum was purely Rolex enthusiasts for most part. A lot of focus was in vintage as well so yes things do change. It would be nice to shift back and away from the same thread topics over and over again.

It's nice to see I'm not entirely alone in my feelings.

Although I registered about 2 years ago, I've been a regular reader on TRF since 2007 or so. About two years ago my goto watch forum became a little to slanted for my tastes so that's really when I started registering else where to see what other forum would have a better cultural fit for me.

What you are talking about - a time when the forum really was for the enthusiasts - was really the golden age in my glassy eyes. I guess I am just feeling nostalgic for the times when it seemed every post was a treasure trove of insight and information.

Perhaps I have shifted, too, in that I know a lot more than I did 10 years ago so less is new to me. I suppose anyone into a hobby for long enough does experience that to a degree.

[peterpl]

Its because every single thread is about only several things (actually 1 thing but over and over and over again).

* is this model going to be discontinued and hence increase in price
* is this model going to increase in price
* is this model hard and going to increase in price.
* is this model sort after and a good investment and increase in price.

Thats pretty much what TRF threads are these days.

[Dan Pierce]

Shared wealth of knowledge and respectful conversation were always what separated TRF from every other watch forum. Sadly the trend is more about status pi$$ing contests, scarce availability, and which watch will assure me a profit.
dP

[time_and_cars]

Old school vs shinny fancy school... Things change like it or not... Here you can find whatever you want

[beshannon]

Originally Posted by bigfatpauli

Where did all the experts go? Where did all the amazing information posts go?


-Paul

Buried underneath the nicknames, whining, pricing, shopping, scheming and general distate for watches.

Such is the steaming pile of rubble that so many seem to enjoy and strive for.

[padi56]

Originally Posted by bigfatpauli

Hello,

Years ago, this forum used to be flooded with really interesting, esoteric knowledge of Rolex shared by people who really knew their stuff. The first time I heard about a "Bart Simpson" cornet was here. The first time I started learning about the stop-start history of the Daytona was on here, etc.

But now it is primarily a mix of "how do I get a Rolex" (universally, go grey) or "is this Rolex over-polished" (universally, yes) or "is this a good deal" (universally, I wouldn't) with a few incomings mixed in...

Where did all the experts go? Where did all the amazing information posts go?

The other day we had one of said posts - about Rolex hands not being in-house. It felt like half the replies where, "why are you posting this?" so I believe the culture has fundamentally shifted away from knowledge based posts.

So I ask, where did all the education go?

-Paul

Well a few are still around but myself lately have to drag myself on forum as now its little more than the stuff you get on Facebook mainly brain dead stuff.

Aegler made movements for Rolex.

The famous Techni-Quadron some information from Gruen web site ."Doctor's Watches" were so-called because the large seconds dial was handy for timing a patient's pulse. These however were not sold only to doctors. The watch was advertised as a timepiece for technicians and "radio and mechanical engineers"—anyone who needed to measure time in seconds. The 877 movement, manufactured by Aegler in Biel, was also used in the Rolex Prince; this unusual movement gives the watch its distinctive "dual dial" design. Hours and minutes are confined to the upper half of the dial, while the entire lower dial is dedicated to seconds. The Techni-Quadron provided a useful alternative to the tiny seconds hands on most watches from this era, which can be as little as 2mm , and are not practical to use for timing etc.


Aegler made movements for Rolex (which at this time had no own movement manufacturing capability)and has made Rolex movement ever since but now incorporated fully into the Rolex name.Gruen and Rolex were Aegler's biggest customers, and were both large shareholders as well. And the full company name at one time was, Aegler, Societe Anonyme, Fabrique des Montres Rolex & Gruen Guild A. Gruen and Rolex

Gruen sold their Aegler shares in the early 1930s,to Hans of Rolex after they moved all production to the Precision Factory(just another name to appear on a Rolex dial). About this time, Aegler became increasingly tied to Rolex through the sale of stock and shares.And Today, the main Rolex building in Biel is the old Aegler factory, and though it is now owned by Rolex, it is still run by the Aegler family.

A few mostly now forgotten names on Rolex dials.

Air Lion,Air-Tiger,Air-giant,Space-Dweller,SkyRocket,Speedking,Falcon,Orchid,Observat ory ,Tridor, Athlete,Commando,Turtle Timer,Canadian Empire, Oyster Lipton, Rolex Scientific,Rolex Everest,Tudor Advisor,Oyster Junior Sport, Oyster Raleigh, Oyster Commander, Oyster Recorda, Oyster Edison, Oyster Grenfell, Oyster Shipmate and Oyster Standard,and there are a quite a few more that I cannot remember now.

One of my favourite vintage Rolex the Prince doctor dial below.




Perpetual and not my AD Said This Or That or is it Safe.

In todays market perpetual its just Rolex speak for being automatic winding,but Perrelet invented the first self winding mechanism around 1770,later Breguet improved it and called his winding system perpetuelles.Now perhaps this is where Rolex got the idea to call there automatics Perpetual.But it was a guy called John Harwood from the Isle of Man UK,now he in 1923 took out a UK/World patent for the first truly automatic winding wrist watch.

Now he went on with backing to produce many thousands of these watches,but mainly owing to the very hard industrial depression in the mid 1920s to 1930s in the UK he went broke and out of business .Now old Hans Wilsdorf of Rolex being a very clever but very shrewd man bought and took up this auto-winding patent for the Rolex Watch Company,and in the very early 1930s incorporated it into the oyster design case.

This with the newly acquired waterproof screw down crown patent that he got from Perregaux and George Peret now they first took out a Swiss patent in 1925 for the very first twin lock crown system .This with the Oyster type case,screw down twinlock crown and the acquired patent auto wind mechanism the first Rolex Oyster was born. But in those very early oyster days it only wound around 300 degrees .Now Rolex did improved the design by the help of Hans brother in-law,who made it more efficient by winding a full 360 degrees,and a power reserve then of around 36 hours.After the auto watch and the oyster case later the oyster type bracelet, Rolex really took off the rest is just pure marketing genius by Hans Wilsdorf oF the RWC.


First Rolex Submarine.

Old Hans Wilsdorf was a clever man,and wanted to increase sales worldwide and especially in tropical climates.So he tried to make a watch that was waterproof,now the evolution of the first oyster case was started.His idea was very simple,he would fit a case inside a case,and he called it the Submarine watch.Now this worked,but had certain drawbacks you had to open the case to wind it,and the outer case had a threaded screw on bezel to protect the watch.This was not very user owner friendly and caused wear on the hinges and bezel threads.So he started to look for a new idea for a truly waterproof wrist watch.So we had to wait 30 odd years for the rebirth from Submarine,to the first Submariner as we know it today.I suppose now is the most plentiful mechanical watch in this world today with many millions of them made .


Fastbeat Vs Slowbeat mechanical Movements.

The high-beat vs low-beat argument has been running as long as I've taken an interest in movements around now 55 years (I am talking about watches here) and opinions are still divided.

One of the more highly regarded chronograph movements is still the Zenith "El Primero" running at 36000 bph. So highly regarded as we all know it was used by Rolex in the Daytona.Now the Zenith calibre 3019 was first introduced in 1969 and I'm pretty sure if there were any problems with hi-beat movements, 47 years is long enough for them to manifest themselves.

Ulysse Nardin marine chronometers have always been highly regarded but it is a little known fact that for years, they were fitted with a high-beat (36000bph) version of the ETA 2824-2, UN calibre NB11QU. Zodiac produced at least four high-beat movements from 1971-73, all with Albert/Shine ebauche, and fitted to the "SST" models. Longines experimented with calibres 430 to 433 from 1967 but when they introduced twin-barrel movements in 1975, chose to revert back to 28800 bph,and in these days Longines made some excellent in-house made movements to equal or better most.

Changing the subject slightly, the Longines twin-barrel movements were something I wish had survived in current production,a brilliant movement,but very expensive to make. Calibre 890, 892 & 893 had stacked twin barrels whereas calibres 990 to 994 had side-by-side barrels in a movement only 2.95mm thick. The power reserve of around 44-50 hours was respectable but not particularly impressive for a twin-barrel movement, although I'm sure that if R & D had continued on this movement this would have been substantially improved.And would have put many a modern movements to shame,from any manufacturer or brand even Rolex.

Now the main advantages of slower beat rates (18,000 , 19,800 and 21,600 ) are less immediate. Lower power needs allow for softer mainsprings, limiting stress and friction throughout the wheel train, winding train, and the escapement. Service intervals are longer and more flexible, and part wear replacements are negligible.But in general low beat movements will generally not perform as well as a fast-beat one, and while slow beat movements can perform very well it requires more skill and effort from the watchmaker to achieve and Rolex achieved that though the many years, through laborious positional adjustments and high quality movement parts . Now slow-beat is used primarily by manufactures of high-craft movements, most of whom consider today 21,600 BPH to the best.But most of these type of movements say Patek being quite delicate and can easily be put out of adjustment by the slightest Mal adjustment like say a small fall or big shocks.


Some of the advantages of fast-beat (28,800 v/h and 36,000 v/h) are obvious, better isochronism, and better performance in both vertical and horizontal positions even with minimal adjustment or no adjustment at all.This is one of the reasons fast-beat has been almost universally adopted by mass-producers.If you think of a how fast a quartz movement beats,while Mechanical watch usually have 28000 to 36000 beats per hour, which is 480 to 600 beats per minute (Hz), and therefore cannot compete with quartz watches that have around 4000 to 8000 beats per second (10 times faster).So in theory the mechanical High beat movement should be more accurate,with very little difference in over all power reserve, because they use a much stronger main spring.Now some say there is the possible extra wear factor in the Hi beat movement,but IMO as long as the recommend services are done,there is little or no difference,service is very important with any mechanical movement.

Now when Rolex's did the modification to the Zenith chronograph, where in addition to reducing the beat rate, they discarded the regulator and installed there own vastly larger Microstella balance wheel,and regulator.And when Zenith would not,or could not, supply the vast quantities Rolex needed, they was forced to design there first ever chrono movement the cal 4130 in 2000. Which although now quite old is still going strong today and basically unchanged.

This is short list of outstanding movements that should all easily achieve a daily consistency of five seconds or better on the wrist.All of the current Rolex calibers including the Cal 4130 this a outstanding chronograph movement with a excellent power reserve and one of the best around now. But there are many others in the same class accuracy wise but less power reserve.

The ETA 2892-A2, ETA 2824/2T chronometer grade, ETA Valjoux 7750,Unitas 6497/8,Omega 2500, JLC 889/2 , JLC 960, Longines 990 (Lemania 8815), PP 215, PP 240,now IMHO the Grand Seiko 430 is one of best movements ever made .Others like the Zenith 400,Zenith 670, GP 3100 all excellent movements, plus there are many more.Would not call any modern movement made today best,whats best in one persons eyes is better in another's.But most movements today even from Alpha to every day Seiko, Miyota and all the high end brands all have there place in today's horological world.

[Nairn1980]

Originally Posted by bigfatpauli

Hello,

Years ago, this forum used to be flooded with really interesting, esoteric knowledge of Rolex shared by people who really knew their stuff. The first time I heard about a "Bart Simpson" cornet was here. The first time I started learning about the stop-start history of the Daytona was on here, etc.

But now it is primarily a mix of "how do I get a Rolex" (universally, go grey) or "is this Rolex over-polished" (universally, yes) or "is this a good deal" (universally, I wouldn't) with a few incomings mixed in...

Where did all the experts go? Where did all the amazing information posts go?

The other day we had one of said posts - about Rolex hands not being in-house. It felt like half the replies where, "why are you posting this?" so I believe the culture has fundamentally shifted away from knowledge based posts.

So I ask, where did all the education go?

-Paul

Yep it’s all become very tiresome sadly

[beshannon]

Thank you Peter as always, great stuff, love the explanation about the movements which are my favorite part of the watch

[LeftCoastBias]

To be fair, there’s not a lot of new info on rolex to be disseminated.

...and I do agree the constant barrage of whining about “shortages” is tiresome.

[BisonHead]

Fairly new to the Forum, although bought my first Rolex in 95. I find there is a lot of great information on here.

I have been steadily working back though most of the threads in the vintage section. Real treasure trove of information.

I enjoy seeing people getting a buzz out of their most recent purchase and posting pictures.

Yes there seems to be a lot of threads about availability, investment, flipping, grays, is it safe etc. But this is a forum and people will always post topics that are close to them. Its what makes a forum a forum.

[Chadridv]

Originally Posted by bigfatpauli

Hello,

Years ago, this forum used to be flooded with really interesting, esoteric knowledge of Rolex shared by people who really knew their stuff. The first time I heard about a "Bart Simpson" cornet was here. The first time I started learning about the stop-start history of the Daytona was on here, etc.

But now it is primarily a mix of "how do I get a Rolex" (universally, go grey) or "is this Rolex over-polished" (universally, yes) or "is this a good deal" (universally, I wouldn't) with a few incomings mixed in...

Where did all the experts go? Where did all the amazing information posts go?

The other day we had one of said posts - about Rolex hands not being in-house. It felt like half the replies where, "why are you posting this?" so I believe the culture has fundamentally shifted away from knowledge based posts.

So I ask, where did all the education go?

-Paul

The quantity of threads and posts filled with knowledge and fascinating historical points are likely still the same, they're just buried in the other BS threads.

Ask a question that requires an expert response and you'll get your answer. But If I'm being honest, it's these types of threads that perpetuate and exasperate the buzz regarding the current state of things and the "shift" that you are upset about.

[herts9]

Originally Posted by beshannon

Buried underneath the nicknames, whining, pricing, shopping, scheming and general distate for watches.

Such is the steaming pile of rubble that so many seem to enjoy and strive for.

This.

Great info is still here, but underneath of all the value and speculation clutter that is excessive with people new to the "hobby"

[Justingtr]

You mean you dont come here for the is it safe to wear my watch at x city? Or is it safe to wear my DSSD in the bathtub?

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

[12Relojes]

Originally Posted by chloebear

I absolutely see your point. I think the super smart enthusiasts are still on here, but perhaps a bit drowned out. But there are a good number of great guys I count on for sage advice and esoteric knowledge that still make it the best place on the internet.

It's definitely the most gentlemanly place on the internet.

x2. TRF is an escape for me and as Chloebear points out, it's hard to find a place with better manners. I stand in awe of those savants referenced by OP. I read that post on the hands and recently learned that Luminova is Japanese!

I chuckle every time I see a post about where it's safe to wear a Rolex and remember when I was that nervous. "I better learn how to handle something that can piss my wife off that much. It's like a super-power." I don't mind it though.

I'll start watching baseball in September. There's a guy in the stands that's been watching every game and has the stats on every player. So what? He doesn't change my fun and I don't see how I change his.

[Norbert]

Originally Posted by Justingtr

You mean you dont come here for the is it safe to wear my watch at x city? Or is it safe to wear my DSSD in the bathtub?

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

Or complain about nicknames for the watches?

[Kiddodoc]

Forum has definitely changed recently. I do see more people talking about investment watches rather than just enjoying the references they own. There are still some great ones on here and I still enjoy the forum but things change quite a bit as most things do in life.

[Wimbledon]

Originally Posted by bigfatpauli

Hello,

Where did all the experts go? Where did all the amazing information posts go?

-Paul

It's been replaced with 10,000 threads about the Batman.

[Boothroyd]

Thanks very much, Peter! Hope you are doing well.