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[77T]

Originally Posted by shaunylw

What do you think about Masi next year? I would have to think based on his decision he might lose his role.

I don’t believe it’s the real question. One-lap shootouts could be banned.

The other part we’ve yet to learn - what was the locally nominated CoC handling during some of the tacticals? Since we are all in Monday-Morning-QB mode…so…why didn’t the CoC take the 8 lapped cars through the pit lane to rejoin at the back? It’s a well-known tactic to reposition cars when it’s not safe to have them pass the SC. There was plenty of time to prepare the field for restart when 4 laps were remaining under SC.

Also, nobody has asked the best question yet: Was Stephano or Ross somewhere near, or texting?


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[shaunylw]

Originally Posted by 77T

I don’t believe it’s the real question. One-lap shootouts could be banned.

The other part we’ve yet to learn - what was the locally nominated CoC handling during some of the tacticals? Since we are all in Monday-Morning-QB mode…so…why didn’t the CoC take the 8 lapped cars through the pit lane to rejoin at the back? It’s a well-known tactic to reposition cars when it’s not safe to have them pass the SC. There was plenty of time to prepare the field for restart when 4 laps were remaining under SC.

Also, nobody has asked the best question yet: Was Stephano or Ross somewhere near, or texting?


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I didn’t know the pitlane was an option, that would have certainly been the right play.

[Tricolore66]

You're absolutely correct. I just rewatched the last ten laps. Lewis did tell the team he needed tires just after the safety car came out. In retrospect Mercedes could have pitted Lewis at the same time Max pitted under the VSC. He had around a 7 second lead at his tires were already 23 laps old. The team looked like they thought he was going to be coming in. Really impressive driving by Max and Christian Horner simply made better decisions that Toto Wolff.

Originally Posted by daveathall

If they had pitted Hamilton on the safety car and Verstappen stayed out and the race finished on a safety car, Verstappen would have won. If Hamilton had pitted he would also have lost position and would have had to try and overtake Verstappen on 1 lap if the race continued. They did not know that the race director was going to "make up the rules" and only let 5 cars pass. They did the only thing they could do. No one foresaw that the race director was so scared of and thus be intimidated by Horner.

Fact remains, if Hamilton had been brought in under the safety car, he would have lost. Can't understand why the so called experts here can't see that.

[77T]

Originally Posted by shaunylw

I didn’t know the pitlane was an option, that would have certainly been the right play.

It would have taken unconventional thinking to do it. On balance, it’s not fair for me to judge Masi or the CoC after the fact.

But it would have been more fair to the spirit of the competition IMHO. To safely get all 8 lapped cars behind the field that were on the lead lap + allow a G/F finish + keep the Big Bad Wolff & Little Christian Horner out of it + keep it out of the Stewards Room post race.

Just my 2¢


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[SDGT3]

Originally Posted by shaunylw

Ya, i wonder how they handle that in the future. Obviously they couldn’t get all of the back markers through and have enough time to start the race again. Clearly Lewis should have won under the SC, but for some reason they decided let’s let a few cars go. The strangest part was how late that call was made. They could have let the back markers go through two laps prior. Might not have changed the outcome but at least it would have been consistent. I’m thrilled for max but i get the controversy.

What do you think about Masi next year? I would have to think based on his decision he might lose his role.

The rules state that lapped cars can unlap themselves under safety car situations after being granted permission by race control. Masi's mistake was saying that lapped cars would not be able to unlap themselves because if he allowed it, the race would finish under SC. From what I understand, Red Bull argued that the rules state that "Any" lapped cars can unlap themselves but not ALL lapped cars" and thus the decision to remove the cars only between Max and Lewis and have 1 lap under green. Lewis was on the radio asking Toto why they didn't pit him when the SC first came out and Toto said he thought the race would end under SC and that's why they didn't pit him. Mistake by Mercedes before even knowing what race control would or would not do. I do like Tony's idea best of moving all the lapped cars through the pits to get then to the back of the field.

BTW, during the VSC in the middle of the race, Toto was broadcast asking Masi to not put out a full SC.... we can all debate whether this should be allowed or not.

[texasmade]

Originally Posted by SDGT3

BTW, during the VSC in the middle of the race, Toto was broadcast asking Masi to not put out a full SC.... we can all debate whether this should be allowed or not.

From a US sporting perspective coaches working the refs/umps to gain an advantage over their competitors has always been part of the game. Idk how other sports outside the US work though.

[Andad]

Originally Posted by saxo3

A typo?
But one could argue that 5 x 2 is approx. 11,9
Everybody who saw the race knew that VER had new tyres, check yourself?

I said he needed to pick up more than 2 seconds per lap to catch LH and 11.9 is more than 2 x 5 smarty.

And I was referring to the whole situation with the ‘go figure’.
I did watch as the new tyres were put on.

We are not ALL rocket scientists you know.

[TswaneNguni]

Originally Posted by Andad

I said he needed to pick up more than 2 seconds per lap to catch LH and 11.9 is more than 2 x 5 smarty.

And I was referring to the whole situation with the ‘go figure’.
I did watch as the new tyres were put on.

We are not ALL nucleyer phizisists you know.

Hey Oom,always thought you were more into scooter racing,not four wheelers ..

[Andad]

Originally Posted by TswaneNguni

Hey Oom,always thought you were more into scooter racing,not four wheelers ..

Note that I changed my post for the less educated Dr. Neef.

Shall I send you the dyno chart of the old Ford now it has been supercharged?

Just about to register the DB9 and take it for a thrash.

The weather is going to be perfect over Xmas and I am taking a few weeks off.

Oom.

[TswaneNguni]

Originally Posted by Andad

Note that I changed my post for the less educated Dr. Neef.

Shall I send you the dyno chart of the old Ford now it has been supercharged?

Just about to register the DB9 and take it for a thrash.

The weather is going to be perfect over Xmas and I am taking a few weeks off.

Oom.

Supercharged the Fordjie ??(Means little Ford ,just so you keep up with us dummies ) Now I am impressed !!! Whipple ? Roush ?
Send me the dyno chart !!

[Andad]

Originally Posted by TswaneNguni

Supercharged the Fordjie ??(Means little Ford ,just so you keep up with us dummies ) Now I am impressed !!! Whipple ? Roush ?
Send me the dyno chart !!

Roush stage 11, 3” s/s exhaust with remote baffle and the usual specs that go with it.
I am not tuning it on the dyno until I have a few km on it but expect about 450 kW without pushing it.

We have temperatures of +40C coming our way over Xmas and New year.

I have sent you pix of the car and I’ll sent details and pix of the install to you.

[Speedbird-1]

Masi, could be about to be 'sacked'.

Would this strengthen MB's hand in any legal hearing?

[77T]

I think MB’s possible right to appeal may come to play on grounds that an error by the RD (Masi) disadvantaged HAM to such a degree that the results must be scored at the end of Lap 57. In other words, negating all that happened on the last lap.

Any potential removal of Masi would not come into play during the judicial proceedings and fact finding. It’s not evidentiary IMHO.

The awards banquet is this Thursday in Paris. I expect he will be there along with all the glitteratti. The deadline to file the appeal is also Thursday (IIRC, before the pre-banquet cocktail reception?).

This would bode ill with the “racing gods” if MB went that route claiming bias or incompetence by Masi. Instead they should stick to the Stewards decisions made on the protests by 4 different people - Masi doesn’t have a vote - he was the protested party.

MB filed 2 protests at the track and if either of them were unfairly or inaccurately adjudicated, then MB might assert someone may have unduly influenced Masi as new evidence.

But sticking to the actual rules is best route IMHO “IF” MB moves forward. The rule for an appeal to move forward is: 1)significant and 2)relevant 3)new element is discovered which was 4)unavailable to the appellant. I expect Masi’s cellphone emails/texts could be summoned into evidence. But this is all speculation.

A new FIA President will also be elected in Paris afterward, Dec. 17th. That person will be either Mohammed Ben Sulayem, or Graham Stoker. Ultimately retaining Masi is a very political decision that might not be made by that winner until after New Years Day.


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[Speedbird-1]

Sir Jack Brabham
Sir Stirling Moss
Sir Jackie Stewart


Not a bad line-up, to follow.

Lewis will be Knighted by Her Majesty The Queen, at Windsor Castle tomorrow.

[austinp]

He’s not knighted already?


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[texasmade]

Originally Posted by 77T

I think MB’s possible right to appeal may come to play on grounds that an error by the RD (Masi) disadvantaged HAM to such a degree that the results must be scored at the end of Lap 57. In other words, negating all that happened on the last lap.

Any potential removal of Masi would not come into play during the judicial proceedings and fact finding. It’s not evidentiary IMHO.

The awards banquet is this Thursday in Paris. I expect he will be there along with all the glitteratti. The deadline to file the appeal is also Thursday (IIRC, before the pre-banquet cocktail reception?).

This would bode ill with the “racing gods” if MB went that route claiming bias or incompetence by Masi. Instead they should stick to the Stewards decisions made on the protests by 4 different people - Masi doesn’t have a vote - he was the protested party.

MB filed 2 protests at the track and if either of them were unfairly or inaccurately adjudicated, then MB might assert someone may have unduly influenced Masi as new evidence.

But sticking to the actual rules is best route IMHO “IF” MB moves forward. The rule for an appeal to move forward is: 1)significant and 2)relevant 3)new element is discovered which was 4)unavailable to the appellant. I expect Masi’s cellphone emails/texts could be summoned into evidence. But this is all speculation.

A new FIA President will also be elected in Paris afterward, Dec. 17th. That person will be either Mohammed Ben Sulayem, or Graham Stoker. Ultimately retaining Masi is a very political decision that might not be made by that winner until after New Years Day.


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As a Lewis fan, I’d prefer he not win his 8th title like this. 2021 is done and Max has the title.

What I really want is for the rules around the SC unlapping to be tightened up going forward.

[daveathall]

I'm also of the opinion that it should be dropped now. Max is the champion, it should stay that way.

I am still in great pain from the obvious offside goal scored by Jeff Astle for West Brom against Leeds in the 1970 -71 season that caused Leeds to lose the champions crown on the old first division. That wasn't taken to the courts and I still get flash backs and nightmares. I wont provide links because I am sure that the injustice is still seared on everyones mind.

I apologise for bringing up such a hurtful memory for most of us here.

[77T]

Originally Posted by austinp

He’s not knighted already?


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His knighthood was announced in the Queen's New Year Honours last December, but the ceremony is tomorrow. The Palace declined to say to who will be carrying out the ceremony. Most likely Prince Charles or Prince William due to the Queen’s condition.


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[77T]

Originally Posted by texasmade

As a Lewis fan, I’d prefer he not win his 8th title like this. 2021 is done and Max has the title.

What I really want is for the rules around the SC unlapping to be tightened up going forward.

If an undisclosed injustice during the last lap is discovered after a race, the Stewards routinely wind-back the result to the penultimate lap. I do get the fact that this case determines the WDC, but bending the rules to that unusual circumstance would be singularly unjust methinks.

I agree that unlapping cars during SC needs reimagining - only in live televised racing is this done. Typically for the pleasure of the 2nd place cars and their fans.

In reality the lapped cars are in no position to vie for any meaningful result. I’d just leave them where they are for SC and only reset in pit lane if a Red Flag came out.

But if they want to fix it, then maybe have lapped cars transit pit lane to rejoin at the tail end once the final car on the lead lap passes pit-out. That’s what Masi could have done himself on lap 55-56.


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[Oxfordian]

Originally Posted by austinp

He’s not knighted already?


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Lewis has been given the title but the official ceremony is on Wednesday when he gets the award from a member of the royal family.

[Speedbird-1]

Originally Posted by austinp

He’s not knighted already?


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Technically, yes.
The official investiture is tomorrow.
(kneel, big sword tap on shoulders...."arise, Sir Lewis"...sherry and bite sized vol-au-vents, small talk, pose for the press and then back to Monaco for tea and biscuits).

[asloper6001]

Originally Posted by Speedbird-1

Technically, yes.
The official investiture is tomorrow.
(kneel, big sword tap on shoulders...."arise, Sir Lewis"...sherry and bite sized vol-au-vents, small talk, pose for the press and then back to Monaco for tea and biscuits).

lol

[denmanproject]

Something not being talked about enough is Carlos locking in 5th, above Lando & Leclerc

[alllexandru]

I hope you guys can take a joke

[Andad]

Originally Posted by 77T

If an undisclosed injustice during the last lap is discovered after a race, the Stewards routinely wind-back the result to the penultimate lap. I do get the fact that this case determines the WDC, but bending the rules to that unusual circumstance would be singularly unjust methinks.

I agree that unlapping cars during SC needs reimagining - only in live televised racing is this done. Typically for the pleasure of the 2nd place cars and their fans.

In reality the lapped cars are in no position to vie for any meaningful result. I’d just leave them where they are for SC and only reset in pit lane if a Red Flag came out.

But if they want to fix it, then maybe have lapped cars transit pit lane to rejoin at the tail end once the final car on the lead lap passes pit-out. That’s what Masi could have done himself on lap 55-56.


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Wouldn’t the correct way to do it be to restart the race any way they want but maintain the time advantage between all drivers?

Why bother trying to establish a time advantage when it can be taken away and gifted to drivers who were not in a position to win or place?

[Uggi]

Originally Posted by Andad

Wouldn’t the correct way to do it be to restart the race any way they want but maintain the time advantage between all drivers?

Why bother trying to establish a time advantage when it can be taken away and gifted to drivers who were not in a position to win or place?

This is the point. It makes the sport a joke - like wrestling or some other nonsense as others have said. The other thing it raises is the prospect of team drivers further back deliberately crashing, or causing a crash, to bring out the SC knowing it will wipe out any time advantage at the front. It becomes a valid tactic for eliminating a lead. Whoever you support - it has to be acknowledged that the end of that race had nothing to do with racing.

[77T]

Originally Posted by Andad

Wouldn’t the correct way to do it be to restart the race any way they want but maintain the time advantage between all drivers?

Why bother trying to establish a time advantage when it can be taken away and gifted to drivers who were not in a position to win or place?

That is the best way if the incident clean-up activity can be done safely using the VSC procedure. That is what happens when a car simply pulls over and stops close enough to a corner station with a gap in the barricades. Under a VSC, there is no need to reposition lapped cars since it is supposed to maintain the pre-existing gaps between drivers before the incident.

Sometimes, though, an incident will require a gap long enough to clean-up the entire width of the track. Or perhaps cross the track and even block the track for a minute or two. That’s when a full SC procedure is invoked. That closes up the field and eliminates those pre-existing time gaps between cars. That was the case with the clean-up of LAT’s incident.

I’ve been the fortunate beneficiary of such situations - also been the unfortunate one, too.




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[Speedbird-1]

Its official!

[77T]

Originally Posted by Speedbird-1

Its official!

Congrats to the Prince and the F1 King.

Tea to follow? Fast jet to Paris next. Due at the gala tomorrow night - but also perhaps an FIA Appeals Court later today.

I hope MB skips the appeal process…


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[AshAP]

I read that the appeal has stopped at LH’s request


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