The Official Formula One Thread!

[SDGT3]

Originally Posted by texasmade

I would say this also pertains to Max since Daniel left the team. He was the last guy that was actually competitive with Max. Ever since, it's been a bunch of tomato cans or a clear #2. It's the smart thing to do from a team perspective if you're trying to optimize your chances of winning the WDC.

The difference is that Red Bull is trying to get the best driver they can to pair with Max since Riccardo because it's been Max vs. 2 Mercs and Merceds is trying to get a teammate for Lewis who won't challenge him and will pull over when need be.

The problem has been that Max is so much better than anyone else they pair him with after Daniel (Gasley, Albon and now Perez). They even went outside the RB driver camp to get Perez to help Max and Perez did do a better job than the other 2. Max is on record prior to Perez coming onboard, as saying he missed driving with RIC because RIC pushed him to be better.

All this is for Toto's leverage for a pound of Masi's flesh.

[daveathall]

This is what confuses me. Everyone says that Schumacher was brilliant because he had a slow car but was a better racer. So here's my confusion, Schumacher was the record holder of pole positions won (until Hamilton overtook him), you just don't win pole with a slow car. If he was winning races from 4th or 5th on the grid constantly, then I would agree, but he was at the front of the starting grid for most of his races. He held the record, so there is no disputing that fact.


The way some members are going on here is that Schumacher was driving a fork lift truck around the track.

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by daveathall

The way some members are going on here is that Schumacher was driving a fork lift truck around the track.

Agree with you. No Schuey was not Mr 100% honest driver, yet he was fairly smart. Also look at who he had on the pit wall / strategy. In the rain, it was MS or Mika. I love the Mika Era of MS' career.

[Uggi]

Originally Posted by daveathall

This is what confuses me. Everyone says that Schumacher was brilliant because he had a slow car but was a better racer. So here's my confusion, Schumacher was the record holder of pole positions won (until Hamilton overtook him), you just don't win pole with a slow car. If he was winning races from 4th or 5th on the grid constantly, then I would agree, but he was at the front of the starting grid for most of his races.He her the record, so there is no disputing that fact.


The way some members are going on here is that Schumacher was driving a fork lift truck around the track.

Agreed. It’s just one part of the St Schumacher myth.

[77T]

Originally Posted by daveathall

This is what confuses me. Everyone says that Schumacher was brilliant because he had a slow car but was a better racer. So here's my confusion, Schumacher was the record holder of pole positions won (until Hamilton overtook him), you just don't win pole with a slow car.

Good point, Dave. When we discuss race winning drivers vs fast drivers, pole positions are a good stat to measure car & driver. Winning a race is often down to teamwork.

Also…from race stats.

MSC holds the record for fastest laps: 77.
HAM: 59.
RAI: 46.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[SDGT3]

Originally Posted by daveathall

This is what confuses me. Everyone says that Schumacher was brilliant because he had a slow car but was a better racer. So here's my confusion, Schumacher was the record holder of pole positions won (until Hamilton overtook him), you just don't win pole with a slow car. If he was winning races from 4th or 5th on the grid constantly, then I would agree, but he was at the front of the starting grid for most of his races. He held the record, so there is no disputing that fact.


The way some members are going on here is that Schumacher was driving a fork lift truck around the track.

One needs to look deeper into the numbers and understand F1 rules of the the time. Was Michael Schumacher the record holder before Hamilton? Yes, but he only had 65 vs. Senna's 62. But Schumacher did this over 308 races and Senna over 162. If one understands statistics, this is actually low. Further, if one actually understands racing strategy, this was in an era of refueling and fuel loads varied a great deal so it affected their qualifying positions. Schumacher also preferred to sacrifice his starting position and run longer in the first stint than be up front.

Originally Posted by 77T

Good point, Dave. When we discuss race winning drivers vs fast drivers, pole positions are a good stat to measure car & driver. Winning a race is often down to teamwork.

Also…from race stats.

MSC holds the record for fastest laps: 77.
HAM: 59.
RAI: 46.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

And this goes to the fact that has been discussed by Ross Brawn over and over again. He said that whenever he needed Michael to push for qualifying laps on used tires in the middle of the race, Michael always delivered, no questions asked. Your stats bear this out. Truly a legend.

[daveathall]

Originally Posted by SDGT3

One needs to look deeper into the numbers and understand F1 rules of the the time. Was Michael Schumacher the record holder before Hamilton? Yes, but he only had 65 vs. Senna's 62. But Schumacher did this over 308 races and Senna over 162. If one understands statistics, this is actually low. Further, if one actually understands racing strategy, this was in an era of refueling and fuel loads varied a great deal so it affected their qualifying positions. Schumacher also preferred to sacrifice his starting position and run longer in the first stint than be up front.

You are missing, glossing over, or ignoring the point I made. Slow cars don't get poll position. Period. There are no fuel stops, no tyre changes on qualifying, the whole point is to go as fast as one can on an empty track to be at the front of the grid when the race starts. I understand those statistics and just to reiterate what I said, slow cars don't get poll position.

[1st amg]

Originally Posted by daveathall

You are missing, glossing over, or ignoring the point I made. Slow cars don't get poll position. Period. There are no fuel stops, no tyre changes on qualifying, the whole point is to go as fast as one can on an empty track to be at the front of the grid when the race starts. I understand those statistics and just to reiterate what I said, slow cars don't get poll position.

Hi Dave, you make a really good point. But going back and thinking of MS and his poles, I recall that the teammates he had driving the same car, most said the car was undrivable, many of his ex teammates to this day, still reiterate, that is what made him a superb driver, that the car Ferrari had was a pos. It was a miracle that he could make that car dance to pole position and another miracle that he brought it home for victory. Many times after the race, the engineers were baffled at the condition the car finished the race was in, and they often wondered how he brought it home to that victory.

[SDGT3]

Originally Posted by 1st amg

Hi Dave, you make a really good point. But going back and thinking of MS and his poles, I recall that the teammates he had driving the same car, most said the car was undrivable, many of his ex teammates to this day, still reiterate, that is what made him a superb driver, that the car Ferrari had was a pos. It was a miracle that he could make that car dance to pole position and another miracle that he brought it home for victory. Many times after the race, the engineers were baffled at the condition the car finished the race was in, and they often wondered how he brought it home to that victory.

Great point. To reinforce that, here are two pieces from rivals and teammates on Schumacher in the early Benetton days and Fernando Alonso in the latter stages of his career.

The telemetry of this short 5 min video is remarkable.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NtaV_cOGgTM

https://thesportsrush.com/f1-news-mi...orld-champion/

“Michael always brought out the best in me”, says Fernando Alonso
Alonso agreed that the Ferrari was a much faster car in the latter part of 2005. However, reliability issues for the Italian team cost Schumacher the title.

“I would say we had the better car in the first half of the season. Then Ferrari maybe had the better pace but also had reliability issues. So it worked out for us in the end.” Alonso said.

The Oviedo born driver went on to say that Schumacher inspired him to do better in his early years in F1. “Michael for me, was the biggest rival in F1. He was like a teacher for me.”

“Alongside me, I had him who brought all his experience and knowledge and support. He never gave up and always brought out the best in his car”.

Alonso feels that Michael’s ability to challenge for wins, even when his car was non-competitive is what made him the best driver ever.

“There were times when we went into the weekend with a better package and feeling confident. When qualifying came, everything was perfect. You hear on the radio that you got pole position and everything is good.”

“Then you come on the scales and you see Michael was in 2nd, just behind you. How that was possible, I don’t know.” he concluded.

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by SDGT3

And this goes to the fact that has been discussed by Ross Brawn over and over again. He said that whenever he needed Michael to push for qualifying laps on used tires in the middle of the race, Michael always delivered, no questions asked. Your stats bear this out. Truly a legend.

I remember watching that race live. WOW!




Also remember when ?Alonso? (or was it Montoya) crashed into MS during the safety car inside the tunnel at Monaco and, thus, ruined MS' perfect season.

[daveathall]

Originally Posted by 1st amg

Hi Dave, you make a really good point. But going back and thinking of MS and his poles, I recall that the teammates he had driving the same car, most said the car was undrivable, many of his ex teammates to this day, still reiterate, that is what made him a superb driver, that the car Ferrari had was a pos. It was a miracle that he could make that car dance to pole position and another miracle that he brought it home for victory. Many times after the race, the engineers were baffled at the condition the car finished the race was in, and they often wondered how he brought it home to that victory.

Thank you, this answers my question. I have always thought of him as a superb driver, probably the best there ever was. Great answer Nicholas, thank you.

[Rashid.bk]

Originally Posted by 1st amg

Hi Dave, you make a really good point. But going back and thinking of MS and his poles, I recall that the teammates he had driving the same car, most said the car was undrivable, many of his ex teammates to this day, still reiterate, that is what made him a superb driver, that the car Ferrari had was a pos. It was a miracle that he could make that car dance to pole position and another miracle that he brought it home for victory. Many times after the race, the engineers were baffled at the condition the car finished the race was in, and they often wondered how he brought it home to that victory.

While I don’t disagree at all, this post is just a general comment and not directed at you specifically. It’s hard to judge what a car is based solely on what one may say because in the end the results speak for themselves. HAAS has a supposedly bad car but no matter how good Lewis, Max or Alonso is it won’t yield poles with the competition. Or take Vettel who was horrible at Ferrari while Leclerc and now Sainz continuously perform in the car.

In similar vein, the same was said about the Ducati MotoGP bike, Stoner got on the notoriously “bad” bike and dominated. Dovizioso almost won a world title twice but the complaints kept coming.

Bad car or not, for Schumacher it did not seem to be a bad car. And Max who we all know is a great driver if he’s not being reckless could not do anything with the RB in spite of his talent. When the car became competitive or good enough, well, he’s a world champion now. MS’s car couldn’t have been as bad as people say, I agree with Dave. I think we want to keep supporting this mystique over certain drivers no matter what but it’s really hard to fill a narrative against empirical data and statistics. Like the fact that about the only record Lewis hasn’t broken is that MS holds the record for the most fastest laps at 77, can’t do that in under performing or bad cars.

[kevinjb]

That's great!

[77T]

Originally Posted by Rashid.bk

Like the fact that about the only record Lewis hasn’t broken is that MS holds the record for the most fastest laps at 77, can’t do that in under performing or bad cars.

Yes - those fastest laps were made during the race. Which means the car was more capable than the personal accolades about MSC from other drivers.

His terrible skiing accident truncated most contemporary critical analysis by those drivers.

The one thing that stands out is his Teutonic Determination to get every ounce of car dynamics from the engineers, pit crews and team bosses. He was DRIVEN to a level I haven’t seen since - HAM included.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Rashid.bk]

Originally Posted by 77T

Yes - those fastest laps were made during the race. Which means the car was more capable than the personal accolades about MSC from other drivers.

His terrible skiing accident truncated most contemporary critical analysis by those drivers.

The one thing that stands out is his Teutonic Determination to get every ounce of car dynamics from the engineers, pit crews and team bosses. He was DRIVEN to a level I haven’t seen since - HAM included.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

This thread would be virtually useless to me without all your experience and input. I appreciate all your comments very much. I don’t know if it’s because of his(MS) personal character(which this is more likely) or the cars and their dynamics are way more advanced than the drivers of today can intrinsically understand. Or possibly because today F1 is so political and money driven. One minute you’re on the team and another minute you’re gone. I think both Max and more Lewis are very involved in tailoring their cars but from what tiny bit I know, and as you confirm, nothing like MS or even N Lauda.

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by Rashid.bk

Or possibly because today F1 is so political and money driven.

Have you seen the recent sponsorship changes, their country of origin, and other top-level changes to F1 'staff'?

[77T]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

Have you seen the recent sponsorship changes, their country of origin, and other top-level changes to F1 'staff'?

OPM (Other People’s Money) is the Mother’s Milk of motorsports - Drivers and Teams aren’t putting up their money.

So yes, money, and the resulting political influence, control the circus. But we love the show, don’t you think?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[77T]

Originally Posted by Rashid.bk

This thread would be virtually useless to me without all your experience and input. I appreciate all your comments very much. I don’t know if it’s because of his(MS) personal character(which this is more likely) or the cars and their dynamics are way more advanced than the drivers of today can intrinsically understand. Or possibly because today F1 is so political and money driven. One minute you’re on the team and another minute you’re gone. I think both Max and more Lewis are very involved in tailoring their cars but from what tiny bit I know, and as you confirm, nothing like MS or even N Lauda.

Thanks - I think every fan and participant brings a perspective worth understanding.

I’m fortunate to have official’s insight but the corner workers have a perspective to be considered, too. Their FB posts are informative.

Imagine fetching/sweeping up every shard of carbon fiber in the late-going SC period at Abu Dhabi. Those lengthy efforts slowly reduced the options Race Control had to effect a Checkered under G/F condition.

BTW, for Miami GP in Springtime, had 1,500+ applications for corners, pits and support. These folks activate opinions by their skillful, or at times, less skillful clean-ups.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by 77T

But we love the show, don’t you think?

Sure, as it's just like not being able to take your eyes off of a train wreck. But hey, as long as F1's 'powers that be' manipulates the outcome to ensure a good show and the 'right' guy wins (hope no one gets killed) during their on-the-fly decision spectacle.

LH most definitely has a very big challenge ahead of him for 2022, all things being considered. Look fwd to his tell-all book and activism against ____ at some point.

[SDGT3]

Originally Posted by Mifune

Here's the deal... next year is a completely new formula and one area where the FIA is going to begin restriction is... wheelbase. The FIA has never restricted wheel base and while any manufacturer could build a chassis that had any wheel base that met their own design and balance philosophy, the Mercedes has traditionally had the longest wheelbase chassis for several years now... this gave them great stability, but less agility. When it comes to next years formula, the Mercedes WOULD be out of specification forcing them to rethink their design philosophy.

The redbull has traditionally been a short wheelbase design and their chassis is ALREADY within that new formula spec and this means they are already used to building a balance design using their current design philosophy... AND their drivers are already used to chassis that behave in a manner that is more 'loose' than the Mercedes team is. There's no more free lunch for Mercedes.

Great point. I give Mercedes engineers and designers a lot of credit for coming up with the split turbo design, DAS and other innovations and have to believe they will claw back some of the down force removed from the lack of floor and barge boards. Their engine is still the "Spiciest" of them all and with Honda removing themselves from F1, it's uncertain how the P/U for Red Bull will be. Hopefully Ferrari and McLaren will be able to join in the podium celebrations on a consistent basis in 2022 as well.

[77T]

Originally Posted by SDGT3

Great point. I give Mercedes engineers and designers a lot of credit for coming up with the split turbo design, DAS and other innovations and have to believe they will claw back some of the down force removed from the lack of floor and barge boards. Their engine is still the "Spiciest" of them all and with Honda removing themselves from F1, it's uncertain how the P/U for Red Bull will be. Hopefully Ferrari and McLaren will be able to join in the podium celebrations on a consistent basis in 2022 as well.

Agree…

Aero Innovation is going to be key IMHO. My idea follows and sorry for the lengthy narrative that follows.

And MB’s engine prowess is fully transferable for 2022. The PU’s are virtually unchanged except mapping for the new fuel. Honda’s departure is a blow to those teams.

There are a couple of things not discussed much because they seem trivial - but are perhaps important.

1) Last season, teams were allowed to invest in 2022 design testing outside the cap and MB + Ferrari being so well funded they could spend voraciously.

2) An element not controlled by 2022 regs very much are cooling exit louvres on the bodywork. Could be a key area of freedom for teams to exploit. And my guess is that we will see some weird science especially from MB.

Why? This is one way to “dirty up” the air again for following cars. And if you already have the quickest engine package, a potentially key aero advantage to front runners.

Consider that “clean air” zone in the 2022 floor tunnels in the screenshots below. (I tried to link to the source sim video but can’t get it to work).

First, the current car’s dirty air reduces a following car’s loss of downforce significantly at 20m & even more at 10m…





Now the 2022 design leaves a “cleaner zone” at the same distances…




My SWAG is aero engineers at MB will use innovative cooling exit louvre arrays to reduce the clean air zone especially at 10m. Just an idea that FP1 & FP2 at Bahrain might have some exotic arrays to preserve MB’s advantage.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[SDGT3]

Didn't know about the exit louvres Paul... good info and thanks. I'm sure every team will try to dirty the air behind them as they all believe they'll be ahead of someone at some point.

[daveathall]

Further to my thoughts about drivers and fast cars. No top driver, Schumacher, Max, Hamilton etc, would go to a team and take over the drive of a slow car. Top teams will go for the best driver and the best driver will go to the best team. They are the best team and the best driver because they have the best car.

I too wold like to add my thanks to all those that contribute to this thread with expertise, I really enjoy reading it and learn a lot.

[jatco]

Originally Posted by daveathall

Further to my thoughts about drivers and fast cars. No top driver, Schumacher, Max, Hamilton etc, would go to a team and take over the drive of a slow car. Top teams will go for the best driver and the best driver will go to the best team. They are the best team and the best driver because they have the best car.

I too wold like to add my thanks to all those that contribute to this thread with expertise, I really enjoy reading it and learn a lot.

..Some 'best drivers' go to 'slower cars/teams' so they can stay 'employed' and possibly contribute to a 'lesser' team with hopes and expectations to achieve. Realistically, wishful thinking imo.
Kimi, Bottas and others moved on to stay in the 'game' until there was nowhere else to go..
Just sayin....

[Rashid.bk]

Originally Posted by jatco

..Some 'best drivers' go to 'slower cars/teams' so they can stay 'employed' and possibly contribute to a 'lesser' team with hopes and expectations to achieve. Realistically, wishful thinking imo.
Kimi, Bottas and others moved on to stay in the 'game' until there was nowhere else to go..
Just sayin....

Those are not the best drivers in racing today, like Vettel or Alonso. Best drivers are Lewis, Max and the upcoming youngsters like Leclerc, Sainz or Russell. These drivers are trying to win individually and will seek to align with the best team and the best team will seek to align with best driver or one with most promising competitive and or strategic potential.
Those you mentioned were best drivers in an era long ago, today they are mid pack runners at best and are looking to compete enough to make the team just enough points to be profitable. But some big names also bring money to mid pack teams via their own backing or marketing potential, like Kimi, Alonso or even Bottas.

[jatco]

Originally Posted by Rashid.bk

...............
....Those you mentioned were best drivers in an era long ago, today they are mid pack runners at best and are looking to compete enough to make the team just enough points to be profitable. But some big names also bring money to mid pack teams via their own backing or marketing potential, like Kimi, Alonso or even Bottas.

.
A bit of a contradiction there my friend.
Alonso and Kimi are both former WDC's...but now (or were) running midpack..now that Kimi retired. Bottas is another story, like Barrichello and other #2 drivers...

[Rashid.bk]

Originally Posted by jatco

.
A bit of a contradiction there my friend.
Alonso and Kimi are both former WDC's...but now (or were) running midpack..now that Kimi retired. Bottas is another story, like Barrichello and other #2 drivers...

I think we’re saying the same thing because I agree with this statement.

[daveathall]

Originally Posted by jatco

..Some 'best drivers' go to 'slower cars/teams' so they can stay 'employed' and possibly contribute to a 'lesser' team with hopes and expectations to achieve. Realistically, wishful thinking imo.
Kimi, Bottas and others moved on to stay in the 'game' until there was nowhere else to go..
Just sayin....

I agree. They had become over the hill, they moved on or were moved on because they weren't top drivers so weren't worth the best team or fastest car.

[SDGT3]

I don't know.... I still think Alonso, with his attitude, killer mentality, intelligence and skill could still win the WDC if in the Mercedes or Red Bull. Even at 40 yo, he's more fit and hungry than he's ever been and if anything, he's a better overall driver now.

It's obvious that the front runners always get the most attention, but surprised that no one has commented on the exit of Omar Szafnauer from Aston Martin and going to Alpine with the exit of Prost and the exit comments from Prost.

It appears Lawrence Stroll is digging deep into his pockets to get talent (aero dynamasist from RBR amongst others) to run close to the top. Going back to the Force India days, I thought Omar did more with less on a consistent basis. We'll never know if he was forced out or if he was "recruited by Alpine" but I think he's a quality man with much to offer as a team principal. What say you?

[daveathall]

Originally Posted by SDGT3

I don't know.... I still think Alonso, with his attitude, killer mentality, intelligence and skill could still win the WDC if in the Mercedes or Red Bull. Even at 40 yo, he's more fit and hungry than he's ever been and if anything, he's a better overall driver now.

I agree about Alonso. I think you are right.